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Today's Topics:
1. Re: 100+ new Li Battery companies (Jukka J?rvinen)
2. Re: "Real" battery capacity (damon henry)
3. Re: High voltage systems (Lee Hart)
4. Re: Cable routing in air-cooled VW (Zeke Yewdall)
5. Re: High voltage systems (Dan Frederiksen)
6. Welding cable is dangerous? (was: Cable routing in air-cooled
VW) (Doug Weathers)
7. Re: Electric Dragin' and BBB Video Footage (Steven **)
8. Re: Welding cable is dangerous? (was: Cable routing in
air-cooled VW) (Bob Rice)
9. Re: High voltage systems (Doug Weathers)
10. Re: Cable routing in air-cooled VW (Doug Weathers)
11. Re: DC -DC Supply (Lee Hart)
12. Re: Welding cable is dangerous? (was: Cable routing
inair-cooled VW) (Roland Wiench)
13. How about a CVT and constant speed motor? (Matt Albertson)
14. Re: High voltage systems (Roger Stockton)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 18:06:09 +0200
From: Jukka J?rvinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 100+ new Li Battery companies
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
We measured those in 24th september 2004.
-Jukka
Metric Mind kirjoitti:
> http://www.metricmind.com/misc/compare.gif
>
> I think this data is more than 5 years old by now.
> Jukka, do you remember when did we do these tests?
>
> Here is comparison study which was done on Solectria Force to evaluate
> impact of the caps and if it worth it. You may learn something new there:
> http://www.metricmind.com/misc/supercaps_in_force.pdf
>
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 16:30:35 +0000
From: damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Real" battery capacity
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
because if I understand rightly, the more amps you pull, exponentially your
time gets shorter-
>
> What if I draw 110 battery amps?
> 220 battery amps?
>
You should be able to draw 110 battery amps from a BB600 for 15 to 20 minutes.
How fast are you going with a 110 amp draw? If it is enough to keep you going
30 mph then that gives you 7 -10 miles range which sounds in the ballpark for
less than 400 lbs of Nicads - maybe more maybe less depending on the efficiency
of your vehicle.
You will certainly end up with substantially less range then you had with your
lead acid pack if you are only carrying 1/3 the weight of Nicads. By weight
BB600s only give a slight range improvement over a warm lead acid battery
though they are not really affected by the cold. I would expect that with 800
lbs of Nicads you would be getting closer to what your Lead Acid pack can do.
The Nicads feel a lot better. They have a much stiffer voltage and you do not
get slower as you drain the pack, that is until they are empty, then they
suddenly quit on you. They also tend to last much longer then lead acid.
Most people that use them are happy with them, other then the watering. They
are robust, but don't hold the type of significant advantages over Lead Acid
that Lithium does.
damon
_________________________________________________________________
Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live.
http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 10:43:02 -0600
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High voltage systems
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Stephen West wrote:
>> A DC motor only needs one chopper. An AC motor needs three choppers.
>
> Don't forget that the DC controller's single phase only needs to sink
> current, whereas the AC controller's phases each need to alternately source
> and sink current. So the three AC output stages are typically totem poles.
> Hmmm, make that 6x the power electronics.
Well, the simplest AC controller is actually simpler than a DC motor PWM
controller. For a single-phase motor, it takes one switch, and one
capacitor (a DC PWM controller would also require a diode). Here's a bad
ol' ASCII schematic:
+VDC_____________
| |_
_|_ _|
capacitor ___ _| AC motor coil
| _|
|_____|
|
/ switching transistor
COMMON___________|
The capacitor provides the negative current flow for the AC motor's
coil. When the transistor is on, the coil obviously has the full DC
supply voltage across it -- this provides the positive half-cycle. When
the switch is turned off, the inductance of the coil causes the voltage
to rise well above the supply voltage. In fact, if you get the capacitor
value right, it goes up to twice the supply voltage, and the current
reverses in the coil -- this provides the negative half cycle.
This circuit's main virtue is that it's cheap; but it doesn't work very
well. You'll find it in dirt-cheap applications like toys, clocks and to
drive stepper motors that only have to run in one direction at one speed.
The 3-phase version works a lot better, and so has been widely used.
Again, its main virtue is simplicity and low cost. I'll draw it with
SCRs, since they are the cheapest high-power switch and what was most
often used with this circuit.
+VDC_________________________
|_ |_ |_
_| _| _|
A _| B _| C _|
_| _| _|
| Cac | |
|____||___ | _________|
| || | |
| | |
| Cab | Cbc |
|____||____|____||____|
| || | || |
_|_ _|_ _|_
SCR1_\_/_ SCR2_\_/_ SCR3_\_/_
| \ | \ | \
COMMON_|__________|__________|
Turn on SCR1, and current flows in phase A of the motor. Capacitor Cab
also charges up to the supply voltage, because its left end is pulled
low by SCR1 and its right end is pulled high by the phase B coil.
Now turn on SCR2, so current flows in phase B of the motor. This also
pulls the right end of Cab low, so its left end goes *negative*. This
turns SCR1 off. SCR2 also charges Cbc, in preparation for phase C.
The process is repeated for phase 3, with SCR3 and Cbc; and then back to
SCR1 and Cac, etc.
You can get a reasonably good sinewave at each motor coil by sizing the
capacitors correctly. Thus, the circuit generates fairly good 3-phase AC
with an exceptionally simple inverter. It works best for applications
where the range of motor speeds and loads is fairly small; such as to
drive an A/C compressor motor or traction motor with an automatic
transmission.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 09:46:08 -0700
From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cable routing in air-cooled VW
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> For conduit work, we use a 39 strand THHN-THWN nylon cover PVC which is a
> very thin insulation, but is only design for conduit work and is easy
> pulling. This type of wire is not recommended for DC EV work because of the
> stranding, thin insulation and is hard to bend.
You can also get THH-THW insulated fine strand cable that meets NEC
code (which doesn't apply to EVs, but there are reasons the welding
cable is illegal in PV systems now, and if it's dangerous at 24 volts,
imagine 150 volts) but is otherwise very like welding cable -- nice
and flexible with thick insulation.
If you use the standard THHN instead of find strand stuff, you will
regret it... it is incredibly hard to bend in any tight quarters.
Z
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 17:39:45 +0100
From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High voltage systems
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> Microchip PIC30F microcontrollers were designed specifically for motor
> control; application notes are available for controlling all sorts of
> motors, including full vector flux control of AC induction motors.
>
the AC synchronous motor (permanent magnet) should be easier to control
and has other advantages too from what I understand (simpler regen). I
think that design will be the dominant
I could be wrong but really, what are the odds of that : )
Dan
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 10:59:49 -0700
From: Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Welding cable is dangerous? (was: Cable routing in
air-cooled VW)
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> ... there are reasons the welding
> cable is illegal in PV systems now, and if it's dangerous at 24 volts,
> imagine 150 volts ...
Could you elaborate please? I have a large amount of bright orange 2/0
welding cable waiting for installation in my EV-to-be, with a traction
pack voltage of 192v nominal.
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://www.gdunge.com
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 12:03:56 -0600
From: "Steven **" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric Dragin' and BBB Video Footage
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Second song is "Diamonds and Guns" by Transplants.
-Steven
On Jan 30, 2008 4:46 AM, Andrew Kane <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If we are talking about the same video, the first song is "Jesus
> Built My Hotrod" by Ministry (with singer Gibson Hayes from the
> Butthole Surfers). It is among my favorite songs :) The next one
> sounds familiar but I can't identify it. Sorry.
>
>
> On Jan 30, 2008 1:36 AM, Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > That is a nice video. Can still hear all the EV noises in the background.
> > Whats the music? :-)
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > > Behalf Of EV Manny
> > > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 7:25 PM
> > > To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric Dragin' and BBB Video Footage
> > >
> > > Latest Video was nicely produced courtesy of http://www.ELMoto.Net -
> > > The Electric Motorcycle Information Network
> > >
> > > http://www.kyte.tv/ch/31581-bbbvsed#uri=channels/31581/95919
> > >
> > >
> > > On Jan 29, 2008 11:57 AM, EV Manny wrote:
> > > > Thanks EVeryone for submitting pictures and videos. Keep them
> > > coming.
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Manny
> > >
> > > http://evalbum.com/1117
> > > http://EVorBust.blogspot.com
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > For subscription options, see
> > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 13:30:24 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Welding cable is dangerous? (was: Cable routing in
air-cooled VW)
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Weathers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 12:59 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Welding cable is dangerous? (was: Cable routing in
air-cooled VW)
>
>
> Zeke Yewdall wrote:
>
>> ... there are reasons the welding
>> cable is illegal in PV systems now, and if it's dangerous at 24 volts,
>> imagine 150 volts ...
HUH!? Fadarah! Horse Exhaust! Welding cable is just FINE! It is made to
take abuse, after all welding cable takes rough abuse in stride. Dragged
around work sights, water, being run over, on rough edges, like in ship, and
RR yards. Been running welding cable at 120-150 volts with good results, for
thousands of years! We ALL have, those of us that have been DOING EV's, not
just talking about them! Small fraturnity here<g>! IF ya have the guilts,
run it through conduits.Of course you DO run it through grommets in
sheetmetal car bodies, attach it where it can't chafe, like drag on the
road? Of COURSE ya do! You know this........right? You do, now!
WHY would ya use welding cable, at 3-5 bux a foot, in PV cable hookups?
With the wimpy power ya get from PV displays, anyhow? 8-or 10# is
PLENTY!Well, IF you are covering, say, Arizona, Texas ? Maybe more<g>? OK.
that's my reaction. Flame suit on. Have at it!
Bob , back in Corrupticut , no more 70 degreez, sigh!
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 11:24:06 -0700
From: Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High voltage systems
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> anyone know what that is?
> http://cafeelectric.com/insight/Conversion/InsightTemp-Pages/Image20.html
That's the Honda Insight electronics, and possibly the battery pack.
It's removed from the car earlier in the photo sequence. Here it is
before removal. It's turned around 180 degrees from your picture.
<http://cafeelectric.com/insight/Conversion/InsightTemp-Pages/Image7.html>
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://www.gdunge.com
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 11:24:52 -0700
From: Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cable routing in air-cooled VW
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Frank Schmitt wrote:
> I'm converting a '69 VW Fastback (like this one:
> http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2205469)
> . Like all air-cooled VWs, it lacks the usual exhaust tunnel through
> which to route the high-current wiring from front to rear.
> Surely other air-cooled VWs must have the same issue. What are some
> approaches that have worked?
I'm converting a Karmann Ghia. I assume it's a similar design.
I'm using the passenger-side heater duct instead of the frame tube. My
heater's up front now and the ducts are not needed for airflow.
The driver side duct is also available, but it's directly beneath the
wiring harness and I wanted to avoid interference.
I used a piece of flexible watertight conduit (I think it was 2in
diameter) to replace the cardboard heater hose behind the kick panel, to
give some extra protection to the passenger compartment.
I also had to deal with the Y-tube under the rear seat. By "deal with",
I mean "remove with extreme prejudice". This required removing the body
from the pan, which was a small headache, but also had the benefit of
uncovering some rust I needed to fix. I replaced the y-tube with more
flexible conduit and snaked it up through the armrest into the area
behind the back seat, where the rest of my batteries are stashed.
There are a couple of annoying turns in the heater duct. I used a fish
tape from Harbor Freight and a friend to pull a rope through the duct.
I haven't pulled the 2/0 cable through the ductwork yet, but I'm
confident it will work. John Bryan did it in his Ghia, for instance.
I'm a little concerned about the power cables being routed through the
periphery of the body, where they might be cut in a side impact. I will
definitely be using fuses at both ends of this cable run.
It might also be feasible to run metal 2inch conduit right through the
middle of the car, like Roland suggests. You could put it on either
side of the frame tube, on the floor under the seat. Put carpet over it
and it should be pretty unobtrusive. (Assuming there's room for it
between the frame tube and the seat tracks - I haven't checked.)
The front of the conduit would have a right-angle bend at the "firewall"
and go vertically up behind the dash into the front trunk area. The
back of the conduit would penetrate the back seat kick panel and go
under the back seat. You could then route it through a new hole, or
there's an existing hole for the aforementioned Y-tube that leads into
the engine compartment. You'd need to put a couple of bends in the
conduit to reach this hole, but there's plenty of room for it under the
seat.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Frank
Hope this helps,
Doug
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://www.gdunge.com
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 13:10:12 -0600
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] DC -DC Supply
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Anyone have a schematic for a DC to DC supply so I can run my lights and
> accessories of the main pack? 156 V to 13.X V?
156 VDC is high enough for most 120vac input switchmode power supplies
to work. You need one that has a "universal input, 90-264 VAC" or
equivalent. You don't want one with a "switchable 120/240 VAC" input,
because it will have a voltage doubler circuit that won't work on DC.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 12:29:19 -0700
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Welding cable is dangerous? (was: Cable routing
inair-cooled VW)
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
NEC does not control the types of wiring and cables inside a EV yet. It
only covers off board wiring only. It does however state in Article 400
what type of cable is use for a off board charger on the DC and AC side.
The DC cables of a off board battery charger shall be rated for the voltage
in the cable and the insulation shall be rated for extra hard usage when
dragging it across the ground and the cable shall be mark UL specific and
rated.
There is several types multi strand wire and cables. This multi strand wire
comes in a low voltage type which is normally use for auto wiring for
voltages of 12 to 24 volts. Then there is the welder feeder cables that are
either mark with a voltage rating on the cable. The highest voltage rating
of welding cable, that may have a extra nylon jack is 600 volts rated and is
color code orange.
This same type of welding cable with the same insulation rating and
identifiers may have a EV label on it, can be use for off board DC charging
equipment.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Welding cable is dangerous? (was: Cable routing
inair-cooled VW)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Doug Weathers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 12:59 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] Welding cable is dangerous? (was: Cable routing in
> air-cooled VW)
>
>
> >
> >
> > Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> >
> >> ... there are reasons the welding
> >> cable is illegal in PV systems now, and if it's dangerous at 24 volts,
> >> imagine 150 volts ...
>
>
> HUH!? Fadarah! Horse Exhaust! Welding cable is just FINE! It is made
> to
> take abuse, after all welding cable takes rough abuse in stride. Dragged
> around work sights, water, being run over, on rough edges, like in ship,
> and
> RR yards. Been running welding cable at 120-150 volts with good results,
> for
> thousands of years! We ALL have, those of us that have been DOING EV's,
> not
> just talking about them! Small fraturnity here<g>! IF ya have the guilts,
> run it through conduits.Of course you DO run it through grommets in
> sheetmetal car bodies, attach it where it can't chafe, like drag on the
> road? Of COURSE ya do! You know this........right? You do, now!
>
> WHY would ya use welding cable, at 3-5 bux a foot, in PV cable hookups?
> With the wimpy power ya get from PV displays, anyhow? 8-or 10# is
> PLENTY!Well, IF you are covering, say, Arizona, Texas ? Maybe more<g>? OK.
> that's my reaction. Flame suit on. Have at it!
>
> Bob , back in Corrupticut , no more 70 degreez, sigh!
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 19:38:18 +0000
From: Matt Albertson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] How about a CVT and constant speed motor?
To: <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Theoretical question:
What if you put a constant speed motor mated to a constant velocity
transmission, not for the typical gear reduction of an ICE, but to change
(simplify?) controller requirements? The go pedal would drive the electronics
in the CVT, rather than high current PWM circuitry? Not sure if you gain
anything - just a thought.
Matt Albertson
_________________________________________________________________
Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail?-get your
"fix".
http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 11:59:12 -0800
From: Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] High voltage systems
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Rick Beebe wrote:
> What is it about AC that makes everything so expensive? Why
> does it stand to reason that a tri-Zilla has to be $6k and not $3k?
"tri-Zilla" implies 3 Zilla power stages are used in this AC controller; since
each Zilla costs $1.5-2k, then 3 of them would probably cost about 3x as much,
or $5-6k.
An AC controller will always be more expensive than a comparable power DC
controller since a 3-phase AC motor requires basically 3x the power electronics
as the DC controller.
The hope is that AC motors are sufficiently less complicated than DC motors to
build that EV-suitable AC motors would be enough cheaper that this savings
would offset some or all of the difference in controller cost. Unfortunately,
the DC motors used in our EVs are already built in high volume while
EV-suitable AC motors are not, and the AC motors that are built for automotive
traction applications tend to be more expensive designs than the typical
optimised-for-cost industrial AC motors.
Cost-wise, the Solectria AC systems offered by Electro Automotive don't look
bad at all. An AC controller is about $4k, and the motor is $2-2.5k. Of
course, in terms of $/watt or $/HP this is still much more expensive than a
comparable DC system. The motors are close to the price of our DC motors, but
are totally-enclosed air-cooled designs and so little (if any) more appropriate
for on-road traction applications, in my opinion.
Similar power level components from MetricMind are more costly, with the motor
and controller each about $6k, however, these parts are now both liquid-cooled,
which arguably makes them better suited for traction applications. (The
Solectria motors look as if they could be fairly standard TENV industrial
motors, while the motors sold by Victor are specifically designed for traction
use.)
Cheers,
Roger.
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
EV@lists.sjsu.edu
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
End of EV Digest, Vol 6, Issue 94
*********************************
