Re: Epiphenomenalism

2012-09-30 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 29 Sep 2012, at 21:33, meekerdb wrote: On 9/29/2012 7:11 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Yes, and the fact that we cannot know which one bears us here and now. The QM indeterminacy is made into a particular first person comp indeterminacy. Where is the here and now if not a

Re: Epiphenomenalism

2012-09-30 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 30 Sep 2012, at 01:54, Stephen P. King wrote: On 9/29/2012 10:11 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 29 Sep 2012, at 12:21, Stephen P. King wrote: HEY! It's nice to see other people noticing the same thing that I have been complaining about. Thank you, Brent! On 9/29/2012 3:49 AM,

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-09-30 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Organisms can utilize inorganic minerals, sure. Salt would be a better example as we can actually eat it in its pure form and we actually need to eat it. But that's completely different than a living cell made of

Re: Forget Zombies, Let's Talk Torture

2012-09-30 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 3:15 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: OK, so you put in the brain implant, switch it in and out of circuit without telling the subject which is which, and ask them how they feel. They can't tell any difference and you can't tell any difference in

Re: Fwd: Sokal-type hoax on two theological conferences

2012-09-30 Thread Alberto G. Corona
Hehe. Fine. However, the concrete abstract seems very promising for a theologian. It is clear that Boudry know the concepts that he manage. His abstract is a piece of cake, it is a I solved the Teologian problem of our time! . It is not pure gibberish. Remenber that the Sokal affair was around

Einstein and space

2012-09-30 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King With his relativity principle, Einstein showed us that there is no such thing as space, because all distances are relational, relative, not absolute. The Michelson朚orley experiment also proved that there is no ether, there is absolutely nothing there in what we call

Re: Fwd: Sokal-type hoax on two theological conferences

2012-09-30 Thread Alberto G. Corona
I don´t know if you know the postmodernist generator. It´s a program that generate postmodernist papers, Sokal style: Each time it is executed, a now paper is generated: http://www.elsewhere.org/pomo/ 2012/9/30 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com: Hehe. Fine. However, the concrete

Re: Re: Epiphenomenalism

2012-09-30 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King Leibniz would not go along with epiphenomena because the matter that materialists base their beliefs in is not real, so it can't emanate consciousness. Leibniz did not believe in matter in the same way that atheists today do not believe in God. And with good reason.

Numbers and other inhabitants of Platonia are also inhabitants of monads

2012-09-30 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal I'm still trying to figure out how numbers and ideas fit into Leibniz's metaphysics. Little is written about this issue, so I have to rely on what Leibniz says otherwise about monads. Previously I noted that numbers could not be monads because monads constantly change.

Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-09-30 Thread Roger Clough
Only life evolves, and steel claws, being made of steel, are not alive, at least in the ordinary sense (Leibniz believed that everything in the universe is alive). So what you propose couldn't happen. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/30/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the

Re: Pre-established harmony comp in relation to Platonia and Contingia

2012-09-30 Thread Alberto G. Corona
Thanks for the very interesting video. Concerning Platonia and Contingia, there are much to say if we introduce natural selection, the only well know creative process. The world of Platonia, in terms of natural selection, is the peak of the fitness landscape (FT). The FT is the point of

evolution is a cosmic crap shoot

2012-09-30 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig and John, 1. Only living things evolve. 2. Because they have intelligence to see and choose. 3. Which is unplanned, but still seeks goals as all life does. 4. But not all life is equally intelligent. 5. But the seeking will change as the individual and his ambient possible goals change.

Evolution according to Platonia and Contingia

2012-09-30 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Alberto G. Corona Yes, it is the goal-seeking aspect of life coming from Platonia inside or overlooking the survival of the fittest aspect of Contingia. Lifeless evolution is also possible, as you observe, although as you observe from Penrose, it could be just due to the gradient in the

Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-09-30 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 10:39 PM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Only life evolves, and steel claws, being made of steel, are not alive, at least in the ordinary sense (Leibniz believed that everything in the universe is alive). So what you propose couldn't happen. Sea shells are

Re: Evolution outshines reason by far

2012-09-30 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 11:54 PM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: Whoever said that does not know what he says: There are great differences between evolutionary designs and rational design, rational designs are, well, rational, but evolutionary designs are idiotic. Mother Nature

Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-09-30 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Sunday, September 30, 2012 10:55:34 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 10:39 PM, Roger Clough rcl...@verizon.netjavascript: wrote: Only life evolves, and steel claws, being made of steel, are not alive, at least in the ordinary sense (Leibniz believed that

Re: Forget Zombies, Let's Talk Torture

2012-09-30 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Sunday, September 30, 2012 6:19:15 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 3:15 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: OK, so you put in the brain implant, switch it in and out of circuit without telling the subject which is which, and ask them how they

Re: Epiphenomenalism

2012-09-30 Thread meekerdb
On 9/30/2012 12:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 29 Sep 2012, at 21:33, meekerdb wrote: On 9/29/2012 7:11 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Yes, and the fact that we cannot know which one bears us here and now. The QM indeterminacy is made into a particular first person comp indeterminacy. Where

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-09-30 Thread John Clark
On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 1:20 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: It's not enough to assert that evolutionary designs (teleonomy) and rational designs (teleology) are different, I am asking you to explain how it is possible for them to be different The difference is Evolution

Re: Einstein and space

2012-09-30 Thread Bruno Marchal
Hi Roger Clough, I have regrouped my comments because they are related. On 30 Sep 2012, at 13:34, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King With his relativity principle, Einstein showed us that there is no such thing as space, because all distances are relational, relative, not absolute.

Re: Forget Zombies, Let's Talk Torture

2012-09-30 Thread meekerdb
On 9/30/2012 3:18 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: I don't doubt that initial experiments would not yield ideal results. Neural prostheses would initially be used for people with disabilities. Cochlear implants are better than being deaf, but not as good as normal hearing. But technology keeps

Re: Fwd: Sokal-type hoax on two theological conferences

2012-09-30 Thread meekerdb
On 9/30/2012 4:31 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: Hehe. Fine. However, the concrete abstract seems very promising for a theologian. It is clear that Boudry know the concepts that he manage. His abstract is a piece of cake, it is a I solved the Teologian problem of our time! . It is not pure

Re: Epiphenomenalism

2012-09-30 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 30 Sep 2012, at 18:16, meekerdb wrote: On 9/30/2012 12:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 29 Sep 2012, at 21:33, meekerdb wrote: On 9/29/2012 7:11 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Yes, and the fact that we cannot know which one bears us here and now. The QM indeterminacy is made into a

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-09-30 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/30/2012 5:44 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Organisms can utilize inorganic minerals, sure. Salt would be a better example as we can actually eat it in its pure form and we actually need to eat it. But that's

Re: Einstein and space

2012-09-30 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/30/2012 7:34 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King With his relativity principle, Einstein showed us that there is no such thing as space, because all distances are relational, relative, not absolute. The Michelson朚orley experiment also proved that there is no ether, there is

Re: Evolution outshines reason by far

2012-09-30 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 30 Sep 2012, at 15:54, Alberto G. Corona wrote: And if you think that weels are superior, NS invented it, because the invertor of the weel was a product of natural selection. Even your feeling of superiority of the weel and the very feeling of superiority of reason is a product of

Re: Epiphenomenalism

2012-09-30 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/30/2012 8:05 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Leibniz would not go along with epiphenomena because the matter that materialists base their beliefs in is not real, so it can't emanate consciousness. Leibniz did not believe in matter in the same way that atheists today do not

Re: Numbers and other inhabitants of Platonia are also inhabitants of monads

2012-09-30 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/30/2012 8:34 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal I'm still trying to figure out how numbers and ideas fit into Leibniz's metaphysics. Little is written about this issue, so I have to rely on what Leibniz says otherwise about monads. Previously I noted that numbers could not be

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-09-30 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/30/2012 8:39 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Only life evolves, and steel claws, being made of steel, are not alive, at least in the ordinary sense (Leibniz believed that everything in the universe is alive). So what you propose couldn't happen. The unstated assumption here is that organism

Re: Evolution outshines reason by far

2012-09-30 Thread meekerdb
On 9/30/2012 6:54 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: Whoever said that does not know what he says: There are great differences between evolutionary designs and rational design, rational designs are, well, rational, but evolutionary designs are idiotic. Mother Nature (Evolution) is a slow and stupid

Re: Pre-established harmony comp in relation to Platonia and Contingia

2012-09-30 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/30/2012 8:43 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: Thanks for the very interesting video. Hi Alberto, I agree. Roger Penrose is one of my favorite theorists. Concerning Platonia and Contingia, there are much to say if we introduce natural selection, the only well know creative process.

Re: Forget Zombies, Let's Talk Torture

2012-09-30 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/30/2012 2:03 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 9/30/2012 3:18 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: I don't doubt that initial experiments would not yield ideal results. Neural prostheses would initially be used for people with disabilities. Cochlear implants are better than being deaf, but not as good as

Re: Evolution outshines reason by far

2012-09-30 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/30/2012 2:51 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 9/30/2012 6:54 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: Whoever said that does not know what he says: There are great differences between evolutionary designs and rational design, rational designs are, well, rational, but evolutionary designs are idiotic. Mother

Re: Evolution outshines reason by far

2012-09-30 Thread Stephen P. King
Hi John, Thank you for you wise remarks. ;-) I hope we can weed out the errors On 9/30/2012 5:10 PM, John Mikes wrote: Dear Stephen (Brent, Alberto, plus plus plus) with a discussion so long that my arthritic fingers stopped scrolling down - on EVOLUTION - back and forth. I resent the

Re: Evolution outshines reason by far

2012-09-30 Thread meekerdb
On 9/30/2012 1:26 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 9/30/2012 2:51 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 9/30/2012 6:54 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: Whoever said that does not know what he says: There are great differences between evolutionary designs and rational design, rational designs are, well, rational,

Re: How many of the Fortune 400 are political liberals?

2012-09-30 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/30/2012 5:34 PM, meekerdb wrote: LOL, where did you find that definition? Almost all people at the top are liberals. Really? How many of the Fortune 400 are political liberals...three?...four? You might like to look at some demographic studies ... Liberal with others peoples money...

Re: How many of the Fortune 400 are political liberals?

2012-09-30 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/30/2012 5:51 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 9/30/2012 5:34 PM, meekerdb wrote: LOL, where did you find that definition? Almost all people at the top are liberals. Really? How many of the Fortune 400 are political liberals...three?...four? Hi Brent, I was thinking more along the

Re: Forget Zombies, Let's Talk Torture

2012-09-30 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Sunday, September 30, 2012 3:45:56 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 9/30/2012 2:03 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 9/30/2012 3:18 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: I don't doubt that initial experiments would not yield ideal results. Neural prostheses would initially be used for people

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-09-30 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Sunday, September 30, 2012 1:43:16 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 1:20 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: It's not enough to assert that evolutionary designs (teleonomy) and rational designs (teleology) are different, I am asking you

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-09-30 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 4:13 AM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net wrote: On 9/30/2012 5:44 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Organisms can utilize inorganic minerals, sure. Salt would be a better example as we

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-09-30 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/30/2012 7:47 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 4:13 AM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net wrote: On 9/30/2012 5:44 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Organisms can utilize inorganic

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-09-30 Thread meekerdb
On 9/30/2012 4:28 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: You aren't seeing my point that if human designers are nothing but evolved systems, then they must have the same limitations as evolution itself, unless you can explain why they wouldn't. More nothing buttery. If people are just atoms they must

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-09-30 Thread meekerdb
On 9/30/2012 4:56 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 9/30/2012 7:47 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 4:13 AM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net wrote: On 9/30/2012 5:44 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-09-30 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/30/2012 8:07 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 9/30/2012 4:56 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 9/30/2012 7:47 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 4:13 AM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net wrote: On 9/30/2012 5:44 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 11:29 AM,

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-09-30 Thread meekerdb
On 9/30/2012 5:29 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: So I am asking you. Why make that distinction? What is the difference that makes a difference? The difference is that human designers have in mind some goal for their design, they can start from a clean sheet or modify and existing design, they

Re: Forget Zombies, Let's Talk Torture

2012-09-30 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 1:45 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: I don't doubt that initial experiments would not yield ideal results. Neural prostheses would initially be used for people with disabilities. Cochlear implants are better than being deaf, but not as good as normal