Re: [foar] Re: The real reasons we don’t have AGI yet

2012-10-09 Thread meekerdb
On 10/8/2012 3:49 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: Hi Russell, Question: Why has little if any thought been given in AGI to self-modeling and some capacity to track the model of self under the evolutionary transformations? It's probably because AI's have not needed to operate in environments

Re: The real reasons we don’t have AGI yet

2012-10-09 Thread Evgenii Rudnyi
On 08.10.2012 20:45 Alberto G. Corona said the following: Deutsch is right about the need to advance in Popperian epistemology, which ultimately is evolutionary epistemology. You may want to read Three Worlds by Karl Popper. Then you see where to Popperian epistemology can evolve. “To sum

Re: The real reasons we don’t have AGI yet

2012-10-09 Thread Alberto G. Corona
2012/10/9 Evgenii Rudnyi use...@rudnyi.ru: On 08.10.2012 20:45 Alberto G. Corona said the following: Deutsch is right about the need to advance in Popperian epistemology, which ultimately is evolutionary epistemology. You may want to read Three Worlds by Karl Popper. Then you see where to

Re: Re: Re: Can computers be conscious ? Re: Zombieopolis ThoughtExperiment

2012-10-09 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Richard, My point was that monads do not add any faculty to an object that it does not already have. Monadization doesn't actually do anything, it allows what is possible in principle, such as mutual actions between the mind and body, to actually happen. But if a computer can think, as you

The fundamental problem

2012-10-09 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Alberto G. Corona IMHO the bottom line revolves around the problem of solipsism, which is that we cannot prove that other people or objects have minds, we can only say at most that they appear to have minds. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/9/2012 Forever is a long time, especially

I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if rather than is

2012-10-09 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Alberto G. Corona and Bruno, Perhaps I can express the problem of solipsism as this. To have a mind means that one can experience. Experiences are subjective and thus cannot be actually shared, the best one can do is share a description of the experience. If one cannot actually share

Experiences are not provable because they are private, personal.

2012-10-09 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal and Stathis, 1. Only entities in spacetime physically exist, and thus can be measured and proven. 2. Experiences exist only in the mind, not in spacetime, because they are not extended in nature. They are subjective. Beyond spacetime. Superphysical. Unproveable to

Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-09 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/9/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-08, 10:19:35 Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment Hi

Re: Conjoined Twins

2012-10-09 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/9/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-08, 12:02:27 Subject: Conjoined Twins Have a look at the

Re: Conjoined Twins

2012-10-09 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg The subjective aspect (Firstness), some of which apparently each twin has, is not shareable, only descriptions of it (Thirdness) are shareable. Firstness. What is shareable is Thirdness. What cannot be shared is Firstness. Thirdness is the description of Roger Clough,

Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-09 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg Consciousness had to arise before language. Apes are conscious. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/9/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list

Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-09 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/9/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-08, 14:25:15 Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-09 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg They can only disagree about experiences that are spoken. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-09 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg There are three things: 1) The experiences of each twin, which may be the same or differ (we'll never know). 2) What they describe or interpret of their experiences in words. 3) They may the same experience but describe it differently. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net

Consciousness is a faraway land

2012-10-09 Thread Roger Clough
Hi John Clark Pascal said that the heart knows things of which the mind knows not. Consciousness is a faraway land of which we know nothing, except that we can experience things. We can describe our experiences but cannot share them directly or prove them. The same is true of religion. The

Re: AGI

2012-10-09 Thread Roger Clough
Hi John Mikes Intelligence is the ability to make decisions without outside help. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/9/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: John Mikes Receiver: yanniru Time:

Re: [foar] Re: The real reasons we don’t have AGI yet

2012-10-09 Thread Stephen P. King
On 10/9/2012 2:16 AM, meekerdb wrote: On 10/8/2012 3:49 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: Hi Russell, Question: Why has little if any thought been given in AGI to self-modeling and some capacity to track the model of self under the evolutionary transformations? It's probably because AI's

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-09 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 10:28 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: There is no assumption that our knowledge of physics is complete; in fact if there were that assumption there would be no point in being a physicist, would there? As a matter of fact I believe that the basic physics

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if rather than is

2012-10-09 Thread Alberto G. Corona
That is true. To pressupose an experience of self in others is a leap on faith based on similarity. It is duck philosophy. What seems a Duck, must be a Duck. Even Hume had to limit its destructive philosophy to avoid self destructiveness. Because there are core beliefs that we don´t doubt, or

Can AGI be proven ?

2012-10-09 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King I suppose AGI would be the Holy Grail of artificial intelligence, but I fear that only the computer can know that it has actually achieved it, for intelligence is subjective. Not that computers can't in principle be subjective, but that subjectivity (Firstness) can never

Only you can know if you actually have intelligence

2012-10-09 Thread Roger Clough
Hi meekerdb Only you can know if you actually have intelligence, although you can appear to have intelligence (as if). You can be tested for it. Thus comp is not different from us, or at least it has the same limitations. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/9/2012 Forever is a long

A clearer definition of the self

2012-10-09 Thread Roger Clough
Hi meekerdb The empiricists such as Hume and Locke maintained that all that we know has first arrived through our senses. I agree. The stuff of knowledge comes from below. But Kant showed that this is not enough, for our minds have to make mental sense of this data. Consciousness or

On Beauty

2012-10-09 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy The definition of beauty that I like is that beauty is unity in diversity. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/9/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy

Nature's firewall

2012-10-09 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stathis, The separation you missed is that mind and consciousness are subjective entities(not shareable), while computations are objective (shareable). Nature put a firewall between these so we don't get them confused. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/9/2012 Forever is a long

Re: Re: Re: On complexity and bottom-up theories and calculations

2012-10-09 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Roger Clough Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/9/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Roger Clough Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-08, 09:19:40 Subject: Re: Re: On complexity and bottom-up

Has man created an AGI ? Maybe ?

2012-10-09 Thread Roger Clough
Hi meekerdb We don't know, nor can we ever know for certain, that man has created an AGI, because actual intelligence is subjective, so only the AGI itself can know if it is truly intelligent. The best we can do is test it to see if it acts as if it has intelligence. Roger Clough,

Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-09 Thread Roger Clough
Hi meekerdb Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/9/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: meekerdb Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-08, 17:18:59 Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment On 10/8/2012

more firewalls

2012-10-09 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Richard Ruquist Nature has put a firewall between subjective entities such as monads and objective entities such as BECs or the manifolds. When I said attached I should have said associated to. There's no physical, only logical connections. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/9/2012

Mysterious Algorithm Was 4% of Trading Activity Last Week

2012-10-09 Thread Craig Weinberg
Shades of things to come. What happens when we plug the economy of the entire world into mindless machines programmed to go to war against numbers. *Mysterious Algorithm Was 4% of Trading Activity Last Week* http://www.cnbc.com/id/49333454 A single mysterious computer program that placed

Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-09 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, October 9, 2012 6:38:24 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg They can only disagree about experiences that are spoken. You mean they can only verbally disagree. It is pretty clear that they can disagree about their taste in things without having spoken about them.

Re: more firewalls

2012-10-09 Thread Richard Ruquist
Hi Roger, What makes you think that what you claim is true? Richard On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 8:19 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Richard Ruquist Nature has put a firewall between subjective entities such as monads and objective entities such as BECs or the manifolds. When I

Re: Only you can know if you actually have intelligence

2012-10-09 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 10:33 PM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi meekerdb Only you can know if you actually have intelligence, although you can appear to have intelligence (as if). You can be tested for it. Thus comp is not different from us, or at least it has the same

Popper's faulty epistemology

2012-10-09 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Evgenii Rudnyi Popper's three worlds are related to but not exactly Peirces three categories: World 1 is the objective world, which I would have to call Category 0. World 2 is what Popper calls subjective reality, or what Peirce called Firstness World 3 is Popper's objective knowledge,

Re: Nature's firewall

2012-10-09 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 11:07 PM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Stathis, The separation you missed is that mind and consciousness are subjective entities(not shareable), while computations are objective (shareable). But we don't know the subjective qualities of a given

the self as active agent

2012-10-09 Thread Roger Clough
Hi meekerdb IMHO self is an active agent, something like Maxwell's Demon, that can intelligently sort raw experiences into meaningful bins, such as Kant's categories, thus giving them some meaning. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/9/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end.

Re: Conjoined Twins

2012-10-09 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, October 9, 2012 6:32:19 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg The subjective aspect (Firstness), some of which apparently each twin has, is not shareable, only descriptions of it (Thirdness) are shareable. Maybe not in these twins, but in these other, brain

Re: Conjoined Twins

2012-10-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 08 Oct 2012, at 18:02, Craig Weinberg wrote: Have a look at the first few minutes of this show with conjoined twins Abby and Brittany: http://tlc.howstuffworks.com/tv/abby-and-brittany/videos/big-moves.htm You can see that although they do not share the same brain they clearly share

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 08 Oct 2012, at 19:35, meekerdb wrote: On 10/8/2012 8:42 AM, John Clark wrote: 2) Intelligent behavior is NOT associated with subjective experience, in which case there is no reason for Evolution to produce consciousness and I have no explanation for why I am here, and I have reason

Re: On Beauty

2012-10-09 Thread Platonist Guitar Cowboy
On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 2:03 PM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy The definition of beauty that I like is that beauty is unity in diversity. Hi Roger, As I mentioned, I think its very hard/perhaps impossible to tie down like that, even though I think I can

Re: The real reasons we don’t have AGI yet

2012-10-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 08 Oct 2012, at 20:50, Craig Weinberg wrote: Deutsch is right. Deutsch is not completely wrong, just unaware of the progress in theoretical computer science, which explains why some paths are necessarily long, and can help to avoid the confusion between consciousness, intelligence,

Re: What Kant did: Consciousness is a top-down structuring of bottom-up sensory info

2012-10-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 08 Oct 2012, at 21:12, Alberto G. Corona wrote: Bruno: It could be that the indeterminacy in the I means that everything else is not a machine, but supposedly, an hallucination. If reified as real, which the machine is obliged to do. But this hallucination has a well defined set of

Re: AGI

2012-10-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 08 Oct 2012, at 22:07, John Mikes wrote: Dear Richard, I think the lengthy text is Ben's article in response to D. Deutsch. Sometimes I was erring in the belief that it is YOUR text, but no. Thanks for copying. It is too long and too little organized for me to keep up with

Re: Universe on a Chip

2012-10-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 08 Oct 2012, at 22:38, Craig Weinberg wrote: If the universe were a simulation, would the constant speed of light correspond to the clock speed driving the simulation? In other words, the “CPU speed?” As we are “inside” the simulation, all attempts to measure the speed of the

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-09 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Ok, which computers do you think have conscious experiences? Windows laptops? Deep Blue? Cable TV boxes? How the hell should I know if computers have conscious experiences? How the hell should I know if people have conscious

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-09 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, October 9, 2012 10:17:41 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: Consciousness is when you bet in your consistency, or in a reality, to help yourself. Consciousness precedes language, but follows perception and sensation. Nice. It can be tricky because perception and sensation can

Re: The real reasons we don’t have AGI yet

2012-10-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 08 Oct 2012, at 23:39, Russell Standish wrote: On Mon, Oct 08, 2012 at 01:13:35PM -0400, Richard Ruquist wrote: The real reasons we don’t have AGI yet A response to David Deutsch’s recent article on AGI October 8, 2012 by Ben Goertzel Thanks for posting this, Richard. I was thinking of

Re: [foar] Re: The real reasons we don’t have AGI yet

2012-10-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 Oct 2012, at 08:16, meekerdb wrote: On 10/8/2012 3:49 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: Hi Russell, Question: Why has little if any thought been given in AGI to self-modeling and some capacity to track the model of self under the evolutionary transformations? It's probably because

Re: The real reasons we don’t have AGI yet

2012-10-09 Thread Alberto G. Corona
I thin that natural selection is tautological (is selected what has fitness, fitness is what is selected) but at the same time is not empty and it is scientifc because it can be falsified. At the same time, if it is agreed that is the direct mechanism that design the minds then this is the

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if rather than is

2012-10-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 Oct 2012, at 11:50, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Alberto G. Corona and Bruno, Perhaps I can express the problem of solipsism as this. To have a mind means that one can experience. Hmm... Not really, with my terminology. A mind is not enough for an experience. You need a soul. It is a

Re: [foar] Re: The real reasons we don’t have AGI yet

2012-10-09 Thread meekerdb
On 10/9/2012 4:22 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/9/2012 2:16 AM, meekerdb wrote: On 10/8/2012 3:49 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: Hi Russell, Question: Why has little if any thought been given in AGI to self-modeling and some capacity to track the model of self under the evolutionary

Re: Experiences are not provable because they are private, personal.

2012-10-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 Oct 2012, at 12:21, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal and Stathis, 1. Only entities in spacetime physically exist, and thus can be measured and proven. Too much vague to me. I am OK, and I am not OK, for different reasonable intepretations of what you say here. I doubt

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 Oct 2012, at 12:34, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg Consciousness had to arise before language. Apes are conscious. OK. I think that all animals and plants are conscious, although not on a really common scale with most animals. I think all animals above the octopus,

Re: [foar] Re: The real reasons we don’t have AGI yet

2012-10-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 Oct 2012, at 13:22, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/9/2012 2:16 AM, meekerdb wrote: On 10/8/2012 3:49 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: Hi Russell, Question: Why has little if any thought been given in AGI to self-modeling and some capacity to track the model of self under the

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if rather than is

2012-10-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 Oct 2012, at 13:29, Alberto G. Corona wrote: But still after this reasoning, I doubt that the self conscious philosopher robot have the kind of thing, call it a soul, that I have. ? You mean it is a zombie? I can't conceive consciousness without a soul. Even if only the universal

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-09 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, October 9, 2012 11:21:59 AM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com wrote: Ok, which computers do you think have conscious experiences? Windows laptops? Deep Blue? Cable TV boxes? How the hell should I know if computers have conscious

Re: Only you can know if you actually have intelligence

2012-10-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
Hi Roger Clough, Hi meekerdb Only you can know if you actually have intelligence, although you can appear to have intelligence (as if). You can be tested for it. Thus comp is not different from us, or at least it has the same limitations. Exactly. And above the level of Löbianity, or with

Re: A clearer definition of the self

2012-10-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 Oct 2012, at 13:49, Roger Clough wrote: Hi meekerdb The empiricists such as Hume and Locke maintained that all that we know has first arrived through our senses. I agree. The stuff of knowledge comes from below. Perhaps, but we don't know that. Cf: the dream argument. This is already

Re: Mysterious Algorithm Was 4% of Trading Activity Last Week

2012-10-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
Thanks Craig. Interesting. Bruno On 09 Oct 2012, at 14:21, Craig Weinberg wrote: Shades of things to come. What happens when we plug the economy of the entire world into mindless machines programmed to go to war against numbers. Mysterious Algorithm Was 4% of Trading Activity Last

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if rather than is

2012-10-09 Thread Alberto G. Corona
It may be a zombie or not. I can´t know. The same applies to other persons. It may be that the world is made of zombie-actors that try to cheat me, but I have an harcoded belief in the conventional thing. Maybe it is, because otherwise, I will act in strange and self destructive ways. I would

Re: Universe on a Chip

2012-10-09 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, October 9, 2012 11:04:51 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Oct 2012, at 22:38, Craig Weinberg wrote: If the universe were a simulation, would the constant speed of light correspond to the clock speed driving the simulation? In other words, the “CPU speed?” As we are

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-09 Thread meekerdb
On 10/9/2012 7:17 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Oct 2012, at 19:35, meekerdb wrote: On 10/8/2012 8:42 AM, John Clark wrote: 2) Intelligent behavior is NOT associated with subjective experience, in which case there is no reason for Evolution to produce consciousness and I have no explanation

Re: AGI

2012-10-09 Thread meekerdb
On 10/9/2012 8:01 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: In some sense they succeed enough the mirror test. That's enough for me to consider them, well, not just conscious, but as conscious as me, and you. The difference are only on domain competence, and intelligence (in which case it might be that octopus

Re: Conjoined Twins

2012-10-09 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, October 9, 2012 10:09:57 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: I think Brittany and Abby are two single individual persons. I do too, but we can see that there is much more behavioral synchronization that we would expect from two single individual persons. Then there are the

Re: [foar] Re: The real reasons we don’t have AGI yet

2012-10-09 Thread Stephen P. King
On 10/9/2012 12:01 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 10/9/2012 4:22 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/9/2012 2:16 AM, meekerdb wrote: On 10/8/2012 3:49 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: Hi Russell, Question: Why has little if any thought been given in AGI to self-modeling and some capacity to track the

Re: [foar] Re: The real reasons we don’t have AGI yet

2012-10-09 Thread Stephen P. King
On 10/9/2012 12:28 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 09 Oct 2012, at 13:22, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/9/2012 2:16 AM, meekerdb wrote: On 10/8/2012 3:49 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: Hi Russell, Question: Why has little if any thought been given in AGI to self-modeling and some capacity to

Re: AGI

2012-10-09 Thread John Mikes
Bruno, examples are not identifiction. I was referring to (your?) lack of detailed description what the universal machine consists of and how it functions (maybe: beyond what we know - ha ha). A comprehensive ID. Your lot of examples rather denies that you have one. And: 'if it is enough FOR YOU

Creativity

2012-10-09 Thread John Mikes
On 09/10/2012, at 8:39 AM, Russell Standish wrote: The problem that exercises me (when I get a chance to exercise it) is that of creativity. David Deutsch correctly identifies that this is one of the main impediments to AGI. Yet biological evolution is a creative process, one for which

Re: The real reasons we don’t have AGI yet

2012-10-09 Thread Russell Standish
Maybe I will take you up on this - I think my uni library card expired years ago, and its a PITA to renew. However, since one doesn't need a mind to be creative (and my interest is actually in mindless creative processes), I'm not sure exactly how relevant something titled Mechanism of Mind it

Re: Creativity

2012-10-09 Thread Richard Ruquist
John, Your model may explain why some drugs improve creativity. Richard On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 4:52 PM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: On 09/10/2012, at 8:39 AM, Russell Standish wrote: The problem that exercises me (when I get a chance to exercise it) is that of creativity. David

Re: The real reasons we don’t have AGI yet

2012-10-09 Thread Kim Jones
It just may provide you that flash of insight you hanker for; that's my grand hope, anyway. here's a snippet: There may be no reason to say something until after it has been said. Once it has been said a context develops to support it, and yet it would never have been produced by a context.