Computational Secondness 1 (formerly Computational Autopoetics 1)

2012-10-15 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Russell Standish A self-organizing system is not what I proposed because in such a system it is the output (Thirdness) that organizes itself. And autopoetics is also apparently a misleading term. I was seduced by its academic associations. Instead, I see now that what I am proposing

CS 2-- Platonic intelliegence or choice in Computational Secondness

2012-10-15 Thread Roger Clough
CS 2-- Platonic choice in Computational Secondness I have frequently claimed that intelligence is simply free will choice. This is used to avoid a physicalistic or mechanical form of choice. Peirce's categories are not mechanical transformations, but transformations such as the mind would

Re: Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as ifratherthanis

2012-10-15 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg After looking at how computers make choices-- whether they are free or whatever-- I now see that my previous position that computers have no intelligence was not exactly right, because they do have intelligence, but it is different from ours. It is not free exactly but free

scientific idealism

2012-10-15 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg I think that comp is a form of scientific idealism. I don't know exactly what that means, but there are clues at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism#Idealism_in_the_philosophy_of_science Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/15/2012 Forever is a long time, especially

Re: Re: Re: Yes, Doctor!

2012-10-15 Thread Roger Clough
Hi John Clark Contempt prior to investigation is not a scientific attitude. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/15/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: John Clark Receiver: everything-list Time:

Re: Re: autopoesis

2012-10-15 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy I agree. I was wrong about autopoesis. It is a mind-boggling definition of life, maybe not even that. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/15/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From:

Re: Are we part of a vast, living and 3D holographic simulation

2012-10-15 Thread John Clark
Nick Bostrum, a philosopher at Oxford University wrote an interesting paper on this subject: http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.html The following is from the abstract: This paper argues that *at least one* of the following propositions is true: (1) the human species is very likely

Re: Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as ifratherthanis

2012-10-15 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stathis Papaioannou I think heredity also plays a role. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/15/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stathis Papaioannou Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-13,

Re: Re: autopoesis

2012-10-15 Thread Terren Suydam
Hi Roger, I'm interested in the thought process that led you to reject autopoeisis. I was intrigued by your recent post about life that defined it as the process of creation, rather than the object of it. Personally I think autopoeisis is an important concept, one of the best yet put forward

Re: Re: Re: autopoesis

2012-10-15 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Terren Suydam You needn't agree with me. I respect that. It wasn't really a thought process, I just couldn't find anything to hold on to, something that works, and I am a pragmatist. Hence my use of the term mind-boggling. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/15/2012 Forever is a long

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-15 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Just because it looks to us that the computer is following rules doesn't mean that it is. So now you don't like computers because they don't follow rules, before you didn't like computers because they did follow rules. We

Re: Continuous Game of Life

2012-10-15 Thread John Clark
On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Since we know that our consciousness You don't know diddly squat about our consciousness, you only know about your consciousness; assuming of course that you are conscious, if not then you don't even know that. is exquisitely

Re: Stephen Hawking: Philosophy is Dead

2012-10-15 Thread John Mikes
Thanks for a detailed inquisition upon my post. It did not convince me. #1: you postulate to ACCEPT your condition to begin with. I don't. (once you agree). #2: Sorry for 'the inside': I meant 'of the change', - while you meant - of myself. #3: Arithmetical reality is a figment, just like

Re: Continuous Game of Life

2012-10-15 Thread John Clark
On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 8:10 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: I think he [Chambers] goes wrong by assuming a priori that consciousness is functional, I've asked you this question dozens of times but you have never coherently answered it: If consciousness doesn't do anything

The surprise theory of everything-New Scientist cover article

2012-10-15 Thread Richard Ruquist
The surprise theory of everything 15 October 2012 by Vlatko Vedral Magazine issue 2886. Subscribe and save For similar stories, visit the Quantum World Topic Guide Forget quantum physics, forget relativity. Inklings of an ultimate theory might emerge from an unexpected place AS REVOLUTIONS go,

Re: Continuous Game of Life

2012-10-15 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Monday, October 15, 2012 12:14:55 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript:wrote: Since we know that our consciousness You don't know diddly squat about our consciousness, you only know about your consciousness; assuming of

Re: Continuous Game of Life

2012-10-15 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Monday, October 15, 2012 12:38:30 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 8:10 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: I think he [Chambers] goes wrong by assuming a priori that consciousness is functional, I've asked you this question dozens of

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-15 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Monday, October 15, 2012 11:49:52 AM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript:wrote: Just because it looks to us that the computer is following rules doesn't mean that it is. So now you don't like computers because they don't

Re: Continuous Game of Life

2012-10-15 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 12:41 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: You don't know diddly squat about our consciousness, you only know about your consciousness; assuming of course that you are conscious, if not then you don't even know that. If that were true, then you don't know

Re: Are we part of a vast, living and 3D holographic simulation

2012-10-15 Thread meekerdb
On 10/15/2012 7:33 AM, John Clark wrote: Nick Bostrum, a philosopher at Oxford University wrote an interesting paper on this subject: http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.html The following is from the abstract: This paper argues that /at least one/ of the following propositions is

Re: Continuous Game of Life

2012-10-15 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Monday, October 15, 2012 1:02:05 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 12:41 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: You don't know diddly squat about our consciousness, you only know about your consciousness; assuming of course that you are

Re: Continuous Game of Life

2012-10-15 Thread meekerdb
On 10/15/2012 9:38 AM, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 8:10 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com mailto:whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: I think he [Chambers] goes wrong by assuming a priori that consciousness is functional, I've asked you this question dozens of times

Re: Continuous Game of Life

2012-10-15 Thread meekerdb
On 10/15/2012 9:41 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: And a computer is exquisitely sensitive to particular voltages and not sensitive at all to other voltages that don't make the threshold. Let's see how computer fares under a giant junkyard magnet. Probably better than you will fare

Re: Continuous Game of Life

2012-10-15 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Monday, October 15, 2012 2:42:33 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/15/2012 9:41 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: And a computer is exquisitely sensitive to particular voltages and not sensitive at all to other voltages that don't make the threshold. Let's see how computer fares under a

Re: Continuous Game of Life

2012-10-15 Thread meekerdb
On 10/15/2012 11:48 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, October 15, 2012 2:42:33 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/15/2012 9:41 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: And a computer is exquisitely sensitive to particular voltages and not sensitive at all to other voltages that don't make

Re: Continuous Game of Life

2012-10-15 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Monday, October 15, 2012 3:09:54 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/15/2012 11:48 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, October 15, 2012 2:42:33 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/15/2012 9:41 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: And a computer is exquisitely sensitive to particular voltages and not

Re: Are we part of a vast, living and 3D holographic simulation

2012-10-15 Thread Jason Resch
On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 12:56 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 10/15/2012 7:33 AM, John Clark wrote: Nick Bostrum, a philosopher at Oxford University wrote an interesting paper on this subject: http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.html The following is from the

Re: Re: Re: autopoesis

2012-10-15 Thread Russell Standish
Whilst I agree with Terren that autopoesis is an important part of what it is to be alive, it is not a very practical thing to measure. I wouldn't know if my artificial life simulations were autopoetic or not, except where the concept has been explicitly designed in (eg see Barry McMullin's

Re: Computational Secondness 1 (formerly Computational Autopoetics 1)

2012-10-15 Thread Russell Standish
I'm more than happy for you to explore this, and report back when you can explain it in terms other than the Peircean trinity. I never found the Peircean classification to shed light or insight into anything. YMMV though, of course! I'm curious to know why you think autopoetic is misleading. My