Re: Searles' Fundamental Error

2007-02-22 Thread Brent Meeker
the collected empirical data, is what is meant by first person experience. Stathis Papaioannou I'm not convinced that there is any such first person experience. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google

Re: The Meaning of Life

2007-02-23 Thread Brent Meeker
different metaphysics we can use to explain what the formalism of quantum mechanics refers to. But we're *less* certain about them than about the formalism. In fact they don't even matter in applications. Their usefulness, if they have any, is in suggesting extensions to the theory. Brent Meeker

Re: Evidence for the simulation argument

2007-02-24 Thread Brent Meeker
irreversibly with the unfolding of the world. This assumes that the simulation must be quantum mechanical - but I think that would defeat the whole point of assuming a simulation. If the world can be simulated classically, then it can be monitored without interference. Brent Meeker

Re: Evidence for the simulation argument

2007-02-24 Thread Brent Meeker
- because of our limited comprehension. The point is that the simulation doesn't have to simulate the whole complicated universe, only the part we can investigate and understand. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed

Re: Believing in Divine Destiny is one of the pillars of faith, and, in accordance with this belief, everything in the universe is determined by God, the All-Mighty. While there are countless absolute

2007-02-24 Thread Brent Meeker
. This Quranic statement is confirmed by the universe, It's not only not confirmed, it would be impossible to confirm even if it were true. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List

Re: The Meaning of Life

2007-02-24 Thread Brent Meeker
explanation, usually by direct perception or by introspection. Just as mystics suppose some things are directly intuited or revealed by meditation, e.g. ...such things as fundamentality, generality and beauty. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received

Re: The Meaning of Life

2007-02-24 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 2/25/07, *Brent Meeker* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [SP, in response to Tom Caylor]: Sorry if I have misunderstood, and if I have been unclear or tangential. Several posts back you spoke of positivism being

Re: Evidence for the simulation argument

2007-02-24 Thread Brent Meeker
anything we can reach now. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send

Re: Believing in Divine Destiny is one of the pillars of faith, and, in accordance with this belief, everything in the universe is determined by God, the All-Mighty. While there are countless absolute

2007-02-26 Thread Brent Meeker
assertions without any evidence! Actually there's a lot of evidence that civilization developed and survived until recently without democracy or the scientific method. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google

Re: Believing in Divine Destiny is one of the pillars of faith, and, in accordance with this belief, everything in the universe is determined by God, the All-Mighty. While there are countless absolute

2007-02-26 Thread Brent Meeker
or Jesus. I'd say that they were better than co-equal; since they actually existed. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything

Re: The Meaning of Life

2007-02-26 Thread Brent Meeker
to do this, THEN reproducible experiments have shown that you should do such and such). Tom You seem not to appreciate the inconsistency in trying to use someone else's morality, even The Creator's, as your own. Surely you've read Euthyphro. Brent Meeker

Re: Believing in Divine Destiny

2007-02-27 Thread Brent Meeker
- point? I guess it would be futile to discuss anything with you, since you believe each of us is hermetically sealed in their own belief system. I don't agree - but that's my error. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you

Re: [SPAM] Re: Believing in Divine Destiny is one of the pillars of faith, and, in accordance with this belief, everything in the universe is determined by God, the All-Mighty. While there are countle

2007-02-28 Thread Brent Meeker
on personality=consciouness=cooperation and a non-standard meaning of God. Here's a much simpler proof: God is love. Love exists. Therefore: God exists. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups

Re: Believing in Divine Destiny is one of the pillars of faith, and, in accordance with this belief, everything in the universe is determined by God, the All-Mighty. While there are countless absolute

2007-02-28 Thread Brent Meeker
method? Brent Meeker Mark Peaty wrote: Dream on Brent ... Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Brent Meeker wrote: Klortho wrote: The other thing I do is check to what extent a person's speech and writings support and affirm the four

Re: Believing ...

2007-02-28 Thread Brent Meeker
; but you have never, so far as I know, provided an argument or any evidence for this opinion. Instead you imply that those with a contrary view are just too obtuse to see other possibilities. This shows a certain contempt for your readers. Brent Meeker Atheism is a belief system the way Off is a TV

Re: The Meaning of Life

2007-03-01 Thread Brent Meeker
that the personal God of love is the only possible truly sufficient source for real morality and ultimate meaning. A source that has given us the crusades and 9/11 as well as the sister's of mercy. No a very sufficient source if nobody can agree on what it provides. Brent Meeker Happiness

Re: Believing in Divine Destiny is one of the pillars of faith, and, in accordance with this belief, everything in the universe is determined by God, the All-Mighty. While there are countless absolute

2007-03-01 Thread Brent Meeker
without which our modern world will go the way of all those other civilisations your mentioned. It will go the way of those other civilizations anyway because: a) it's dependent on energy from cheap oil and b) all civilizations rise and fall, none last forever. Brent Meeker Nations and empires

Re: Believing ...

2007-03-01 Thread Brent Meeker
a monopoly. Academic tenure or a Nobel prize do not mean the ultimate 'truth'. Science is not even a democratic vote. Nobody ever said they did. You are attacking a straw man. Brent Meeker The reason you can't go faster than the speed of light is that *you can't go slower*. There is only one

Re: Quick Quantum Question.

2007-03-02 Thread Brent Meeker
within, I should ultimately age away, therefore Quantum immortality is a lost cause in principle. Any counter arguements or agreements with this would be appreciated. chris. The 2nd law is a statistical result - it only means that you will age away in almost all universes. Brent Meeker

Re: Quick Quantum Question.

2007-03-02 Thread Brent Meeker
be wrong, the latter is the way to bet. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from

Re: Quick Quantum Question.

2007-03-03 Thread Brent Meeker
could just be a compendium of data. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from

Re: Evidence for the simulation argument

2007-03-05 Thread Brent Meeker
then it probably isn't true! I commend to you the book The Comprehensible Cosmos by my friend Vic Stenger. It's pretty much in plain English, with equations confined to the appendices. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed

Re: Evidence for the simulation argument

2007-03-05 Thread Brent Meeker
rational values. Using real numbers in the equations of physics is probably merely a convenience (since calculus is easier than finite differences). There is no evidence that defining an instantaneous state requires uncountable information. Brent Meeker

Re: Evidence for the simulation argument

2007-03-06 Thread Brent Meeker
obtain only within worlds which are law-like - and we're back to the white rabbit problem. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email

Re: The Meaning of Life

2007-03-09 Thread Brent Meeker
things. It's part of what I want. Brent Meeker My best advice to anyone who wants to raise a happy, mentally healthy child is: Keep him or her as far away from a church as you can. Frank Zappa --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you

Re: The Meaning of Life

2007-03-12 Thread Brent Meeker
Tom Caylor wrote: On Mar 6, 5:19 pm, Brent Meeker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom Caylor wrote: A source that has given us the crusades and 9/11 as well as the sister's of mercy. No a very sufficient source if nobody can agree on what it provides. I don't like simply saying That isn't so

Re: Evidence for the simulation argument

2007-03-12 Thread Brent Meeker
in some Platonic realm. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send

Re: Evidence for the simulation argument

2007-03-13 Thread Brent Meeker
integer equations have solutions. Similarly imaginary numbers are introduced to complete the algebra. They are all our inventions - except some people think the integers are not. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you

Re: Evidence for the simulation argument - and Thanks and a dumb question.

2007-03-13 Thread Brent Meeker
in the US, loose the election and come back to y. Of course this is assuming that QM (which was discovered by applying reductionist methods) is the correct EXACT theory - which is extremely doubtful given its incompatibility with general relativity. Brent Meeker Same with the UD, the object

Re: Evidence for the simulation argument

2007-03-13 Thread Brent Meeker
and quantum mechanics there is also a limit to how short the wave length can be; an in-principle limit. Measurements never yield numbers that are not integers (or ratios of integers). Brent Meeker Real numbers are introduced in the Platonic realm to insure that some integer equations have

Re: The Meaning of Life

2007-03-13 Thread Brent Meeker
and clear, but which on reflection you find isn't clear at all. What is Nothing? Can you conceive of Nothing? Is absolute Nothing a coherent concept or is Nothing just absence of matter, i.e. empty space. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received

Re: Evidence for the simulation argument

2007-03-14 Thread Brent Meeker
to it, and without a measure, something to pick out this rather than that, the theory is empty. It just says what is possible is possible. But if there a measure, something picks out this rather than that, we can ask why THAT measure? Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You

Re: String theory and Cellular Automata

2007-03-14 Thread Brent Meeker
a manifold as background space. Loop quantum gravity is closer to a CA since it doesn't assume any continuum. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send

Re: The Meaning of Life

2007-03-14 Thread Brent Meeker
of non-contradictory property statements. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from

Re: Evidence for the simulation argument

2007-03-14 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 3/15/07, *Brent Meeker* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Torgny Tholerus wrote: Stathis Papaioannou skrev: On 3/14/07, *Torgny Tholerus* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED

Re: Evidence for the simulation argument - and Thanks and a dumb question.

2007-03-15 Thread Brent Meeker
what you mean by locally. Since they have opposite charge they will be attracted by photon exchanges and will fall into some hydrogen atom state by emission of photons. Brent Meeker In QM this is given by a tensor product of the corresponding states. But it is an exceptional state. With comp

Re: The Meaning of Life

2007-03-15 Thread Brent Meeker
Bruno Marchal wrote: Le 13-mars-07, à 05:03, Brent Meeker a écrit : But there is no reason to believe there is any root cause that is deeper than variation with natural selection. You have not presented any argument for the existence of this ultimate or root. You merely refer

Re: Evidence for the simulation argument

2007-03-15 Thread Brent Meeker
mathematics as an approximate model and only using as much infinity as seems useful. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list

Re: Evidence for the simulation argument - and Thanks and a dumb question.

2007-03-15 Thread Brent Meeker
tables and chairs are as well as protons and electrons. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com

Re: Evidence for the simulation argument

2007-03-15 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 3/15/07, *Brent Meeker* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But these ideas illustrate a problem with everything-exists. Everything conceivable, i.e. not self-contradictory is so ill defined it seems

Re: Evidence for the simulation argument

2007-03-15 Thread Brent Meeker
Quentin Anciaux wrote: Hi Brent, On Friday 16 March 2007 00:16:13 Brent Meeker wrote: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 3/15/07, *Brent Meeker* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But these ideas illustrate a problem with everything-exists. Everything

Re: Evidence for the simulation argument

2007-03-16 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 3/16/07, *Brent Meeker* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: I think it's more like asking why are we aware of 17 and other small numbers but no integers greater that say 10^10^20

Re: Evidence for the simulation argument

2007-03-16 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 3/17/07, *Brent Meeker* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There are factors creating a local measure, even if the Plenitude is infinite and measureless. Although the chance that you will be you is zero or almost zero

Re: Evidence for the simulation argument

2007-03-16 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 3/17/07, *Brent Meeker* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: If only one part of the possible actually exists, that isn't like being the one person in a million who has to win the lottery

Re: String theory and Cellular Automata

2007-03-17 Thread Brent Meeker
or gained. Brent Meeker If we accept the idea of CA as the fundamental building blocks of the nature we should explain: why some patterns and not the others. Some that have lead to our physical laws and not the other possibilities? In this situation the idea of multiverse might help

Re: Evidence for the simulation argument

2007-03-17 Thread Brent Meeker
Bruno Marchal wrote: Le 17-mars-07, à 00:11, Brent Meeker a écrit : But what is Platonia - Tegmarks all mathematically consistent universe? or Bruno's Peano arithmetic - or maybe Torny's finite arithmetic (which would be a much smaller everything). And how do things run in Platonia

Re: Statistical Measure, does it matter?

2007-03-18 Thread Brent Meeker
) but it would not include isolated OMs that didn't include memory of a predecessor. Brent Meeker Thus it is meaningless to speak of having the same experience multiple times: you only experience one thing at a time, and you can't remember experiencing multiple identical experiences, since

Re: Statistical Measure, does it matter?

2007-03-18 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 3/19/07, *Brent Meeker* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Each observer moment lives only transiently and is not in telepathic communication with any other OMs, whether related to it or not. The effect (or illusion

Re: Statistical Measure, does it matter?

2007-03-18 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 3/19/07, *Brent Meeker* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 3/19/07, *Brent Meeker* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL

Re: Statistical Measure, does it matter?

2007-03-18 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 3/19/07, *Brent Meeker* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If there are OMs which don't remember being you then they are not going to be part of your stream of consciousness. There's the rub. Almost all my

Re: Believing ...

2007-03-20 Thread Brent Meeker
Bruno Marchal wrote: Le 01-mars-07, à 00:35, Brent Meeker a écrit : Brent Meeker quoted: Atheism is a belief system the way Off is a TV channel. --- George Carlin Carlin makes the typical confusion between atheism and agnosticism. An atheist has indeed a rich belief system

Re: Statistical Measure, does it matter?

2007-03-20 Thread Brent Meeker
butter. and not I shouldn't use insecticide here. Brent Meeker - Original Message - *From:* Stathis Papaioannou mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com *Sent:* Monday, March 19, 2007 7:13 PM

Re: Evidence for the simulation argument

2007-03-20 Thread Brent Meeker
? Is it a matter of the provenance of the numbers, e.g. being computed by some subprocess of the UD? Or is an inherent relation like being relatively prime? Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups

Re: Statistical Measure, does it matter?

2007-03-20 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 3/19/07, *Brent Meeker* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 3/19/07, *Brent Meeker* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL

Re: Evidence for the simulation argument

2007-03-21 Thread Brent Meeker
Bruno Marchal wrote: Le 20-mars-07, à 18:05, Brent Meeker a écrit : What are those relations? Is it a matter of the provenance of the numbers, e.g. being computed by some subprocess of the UD? Or is an inherent relation like being relatively prime? It is an inherent relation like

Re: Statistical Measure, does it matter?

2007-03-21 Thread Brent Meeker
the rate, i.e. the clock. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send

Re: Believing ...

2007-03-21 Thread Brent Meeker
Bruno Marchal wrote: Le 20-mars-07, à 13:02, Stathis Papaioannou a écrit : On 3/20/07, *Bruno Marchal* [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Le 01-mars-07, à 00:35, Brent Meeker a écrit : Brent Meeker quoted: Atheism is a belief system the way Off is a TV

Re: Statistical Measure, does it matter?

2007-03-21 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 3/22/07, *Brent Meeker* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John M wrote: Stathis and Brent: ineresting and hard-to-object sentiments. Would it not make sense to write instead of we are (thing-wise

Re: Statistical Measure, does it matter?

2007-03-21 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 3/22/07, *Brent Meeker* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 3/22/07, *Brent Meeker* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL

Re: String theory and Cellular Automata

2007-03-24 Thread Brent Meeker
of the universe. Even though the energy is zero in local comoving coordintes and is zero when summed up assuming asympotically flat spacetime, there is no invariant way to sum up total energy for the universe we appear to have, c.f. gr-qc/0607103, gr-qc/0701058 Brent Meeker

Re: The Meaning of Life

2007-03-25 Thread Brent Meeker
be damage from one of my motorcycle crashes :-)). I wonder if they surveyed any Inuits, who traditionally killed female infants in a family until a son had been born. Brent Meeker http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/abs/nature05631.html http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/22

Re: Statistical Measure, does it matter?

2007-03-25 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 3/22/07, *Brent Meeker* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No. I'm talking about a sort of program/data division - which I recognize is arbitrary in computer program - but I think may have an analogue in brains. When I write

Re: Speaking about Mathematicalism

2007-04-03 Thread Brent Meeker
to Bruno's program and those require realized infinities. Brent Meeker we are not *in* a mathematical structure, we are distributed in an infinity of mathematical structures, and physicality emerges from the interference of them. Why a wavy interference? Open problem. Bruno

Re: RSSA / ASSA / Single Mind Theory

2007-04-20 Thread Brent Meeker
vanished from the explanation. Brent Meeker Intuitively it feels that each mind is on a set track to only experience those OM's that follow from the birth of an observer, but logically there are too many problems with this. Possible problems with RSSA: Quantum mechanics means each

Re: An idea to resolve the 1st Person/3rd person division mystery - Coarse graining is the answer!?

2007-05-07 Thread Brent Meeker
when it does so. I think you need to read Vic Stenger's book, The Comprehensible Cosmos. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email

Re: An idea to resolve the 1st Person/3rd person division mystery - Coarse graining is the answer!?

2007-05-07 Thread Brent Meeker
choice. Brent Meeker The laws of physics are ruleless rules that arise not from any plan but from the very lack any plan. They are the laws of the void. --- Vic Stenger --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google

Re: An idea to resolve the 1st Person/3rd person division mystery - Coarse graining is the answer!?

2007-05-08 Thread Brent Meeker
information but I don't see that the electron IS information. So there has to be a partial match between the information content of useful concepts and objective reality. But it doesn't follow that reality IS information. Brent Meeker That's why we can refer a failure of reductionism from

Re: An idea to resolve the 1st Person/3rd person division mystery - Coarse graining is the answer!?

2007-05-08 Thread Brent Meeker
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On May 8, 3:56 pm, Brent Meeker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 'The Laws of Physics' don't refer to human notions (they certainly are not regarded that way by scientists They are by the scientists I know. The *knowledge* we have

Re: An idea to resolve the 1st Person/3rd person division mystery - Coarse graining is the answer!?

2007-05-08 Thread Brent Meeker
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On May 8, 4:22 pm, Brent Meeker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have now given three clear-cut exmaples of a failure of reductionism. (1) Infinite Sets But there is no infinite set of anything. Says who? The point is that infinite

Re: An idea to resolve the 1st Person/3rd person division mystery - Coarse graining is the answer!?

2007-05-08 Thread Brent Meeker
them as a continuum. And in fact for hypersonic flows I have to start taking the molecules into account. And *really* I know the molecules are made up of atoms and so there is dissocation at high temperatures and I need to make corrections for that and...so on. Brent Meeker The distinction

Re: An idea to resolve the 1st Person/3rd person division mystery - Coarse graining is the answer!?

2007-05-08 Thread Brent Meeker
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On May 9, 6:08 am, Brent Meeker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On May 8, 4:22 pm, Brent Meeker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have now given three clear-cut exmaples of a failure of reductionism. (1) Infinite Sets

Re: An idea to resolve the 1st Person/3rd person division mystery - Coarse graining is the answer!?

2007-05-09 Thread Brent Meeker
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On May 9, 3:22 pm, Brent Meeker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Infinite sets and infinitesimals are a lot more than 'mathematical conveniences'. There are precise logical theories for these things (As I mentioned before - Cantor worked out

Re: An idea to resolve the 1st Person/3rd person division mystery - Coarse graining is the answer!?

2007-05-09 Thread Brent Meeker
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On May 9, 5:57 pm, Brent Meeker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How can Everett's every possibility is realized be logically compatible with Bohm's there's only one, deterministic outcome, we just don't know which one and Griffith's it's

Re: An idea to resolve the 1st Person/3rd person division mystery - Coarse graining is the answer!?

2007-05-09 Thread Brent Meeker
point theorem by Brouwer, which today admits many interesting computational interpretations. Bruno I don't think you can define a topology on meaning that will allow the fixed point theorem to apply. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received

Re: Meaning Fixed Point

2007-05-10 Thread Brent Meeker
Thanks, Bruno. I did know that - just forgot because it's been a long time. I don't think it's related to Brouwer's fixed point theorem though: that assumes a continuous topology. But I see what you mean by a fixed point of computation. I'm now reading your elsevier paper. Brent Meeker

Re: Overcoming Incompleteness

2007-05-24 Thread Brent Meeker
mathematicians generally get along just fine without worrying about completeness or the provability of consistency. Brent Meeker To know that it is true, I am using self-reference about my own proof capabilities. I don't think anyone yet has managed a self aware formal system, although self

Re: Asifism

2007-06-01 Thread Brent Meeker
. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options

Re: Asifism

2007-06-01 Thread Brent Meeker
be possible. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED

Re: Interesting talk about how our minds shape our perception of reality

2007-06-02 Thread Brent Meeker
effect on the universe. But I think you can argue that humans are capable (at least in principle) of universal computation, so any understanding realizable as computation should be within our grasp. Brent Meeker On 5/31/07, *Jason* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote

Re: How would a computer know if it were conscious?

2007-06-02 Thread Brent Meeker
that consciousness is not a single thing. He has written some essays on what it would mean to create a conscious artificial intelligence: http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/consciousness.html http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/zombie.pdf Brent Meeker On Saturday 02 June 2007 22:13:30 Hal Finney

Re: How would a computer know if it were conscious?

2007-06-04 Thread Brent Meeker
explicit and useful essay on his website. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from this group, send

Re: How would a computer know if it were conscious?

2007-06-04 Thread Brent Meeker
counts as bad behavoir and what doesn't. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from this group

Re: How would a computer know if it were conscious?

2007-06-04 Thread Brent Meeker
this question can be answered without first having a good 3rd person theory of what constitutes consciousness. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group

Re: How would a computer know if it were conscious?

2007-06-04 Thread Brent Meeker
competition from those distant from them. To suppose that empathy and reflection can eliminate all competition for limited resources strikes me as pollyannish. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups

Re: How would a computer know if it were conscious?

2007-06-04 Thread Brent Meeker
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jun 5, 5:05 am, Brent Meeker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: However, what would be wrong with a super AI that just had large amounts of pattern recognition and symbolic reasoning intelligence, but no emotions at all? Taken strictly, I

Re: How would a computer know if it were conscious?

2007-06-05 Thread Brent Meeker
? An improvement relative to which goals, the old or the new? Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from

Re: How would a computer know if it were conscious?

2007-06-07 Thread Brent Meeker
can raise through puberty. Avoiding death should only be a subgoal. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED

Re: Attempt toward a systematic description

2007-06-08 Thread Brent Meeker
be reinterpreted to fit (in terms of volumes). Or, as in a gathering of the high school basketball team with 12 members in a room with the high school tennis team with 10 members, you may find that 10+12=15. So applying the model requires judgment about what counts and what + means. Brent Meeker

Re: How would a computer know if it were conscious?

2007-06-17 Thread Brent Meeker
- I observe it. Brent Meeker COLIN snip So this means that in a computer abstraction. d(KNOWLEDGE(t)) --- is already part of KNOWLEDGE(t) dt RUSSEL No its not. dK/dt is generated by the interaction of the rules with the environment. No. No. No. There is the old

Re: How would a computer know if it were conscious?

2007-06-17 Thread Brent Meeker
. Please consider your exasperation quota reached. Job done. I hope you haven't given up on explaining observation. Brent Meeker colin --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List

Re: Asifism

2007-06-19 Thread Brent Meeker
and growth and reproduction we said, See, that's life. Some people still wanted to know where the life (i.e. elan vital) was, but it seemed to be an uninteresting question of semantics. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you

Re: Asifism

2007-06-19 Thread Brent Meeker
Quentin Anciaux wrote: On Tuesday 19 June 2007 20:16:57 Brent Meeker wrote: Quentin Anciaux wrote: On Tuesday 19 June 2007 11:37:09 Torgny Tholerus wrote: Mohsen Ravanbakhsh skrev: The subjective experience is just some sort of behaviour. You can make computers show the same sort

Re: How would a computer know if it were conscious?

2007-06-21 Thread Brent Meeker
, but this is more than it's physical interactions (which are merely part of it's formal description)? Maybe so - but my intuition doesn't tell me anything about it. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups

Re: [SPAM] Re: Asifism

2007-06-22 Thread Brent Meeker
in people. Brent Meeker The Buddha, Jesus, and many others made plain that compassion is not a symptom of weakness but a necessary attribute of true human strength; ethics is the foundation of civilisation; Karl Popper explained the intrinsic logic underlying the success of democracy

Re: How would a computer know if it were conscious?

2007-06-23 Thread Brent Meeker
David Nyman wrote: On 23/06/07, *Brent Meeker* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: BM: But he could also switch from an account in terms of the machine level causality to an account in terms of the computed 'world'. In fact he could switch back and forth. Causality

Re: How would a computer know if it were conscious?

2007-06-23 Thread Brent Meeker
to an account in terms of the computed 'world'. In fact he could switch back and forth. Causality in the computed 'world' would have it's corresponding causality in the machine and vice versa. So I don't see why they should be regarded as orthogonal. Brent Meeker

Re: How would a computer know if it were conscious?

2007-06-24 Thread Brent Meeker
David Nyman wrote: On 23/06/07, *Russell Standish* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: RS: Perhaps you are one of those rare souls with a foot in each camp. That could be be very productive! I hope so! Let's see... RS: This last post is perfectly lucid to me.

Re: How would a computer know if it were conscious?

2007-06-24 Thread Brent Meeker
spent a long time in a sensory deprivation tank (an hour or more) that their mind would enter a loop and they lost all sense of time. Brent Meeker Of course I'm not claiming by this that machines couldn't be conscious. My claim is rather that if they are, it couldn't be solely in virtue

Re: How would a computer know if it were conscious?

2007-06-25 Thread Brent Meeker
and manipulative organs. Brent Meeker --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL

Re: Asifism

2007-06-28 Thread Brent Meeker
Bruno Marchal wrote: Le 19-juin-07, à 21:27, Brent Meeker wrote to Quentin: Quentin Anciaux wrote: On Tuesday 19 June 2007 20:16:57 Brent Meeker wrote: Quentin Anciaux wrote: On Tuesday 19 June 2007 11:37:09 Torgny Tholerus wrote: Mohsen Ravanbakhsh skrev: The subjective experience

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