Re: What is more primary than numbers?

2018-12-17 Thread Philip Thrift
On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 3:58:36 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 14 Dec 2018, at 19:41, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > But suppose that "mathematics is material”. > > > What could that even mean? > It means (in the approach I like

Re: What is more primary than numbers?

2018-12-17 Thread Philip Thrift
On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 3:45:41 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 15 Dec 2018, at 18:20, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 10:44:41 AM UTC-6, Jason wrote: >> >> Kids in school are taught the digits

Re: What is more primary than numbers?

2018-12-17 Thread Philip Thrift
On Monday, December 17, 2018 at 2:06:41 AM UTC-6, Jason wrote: > > > > On Mon, Dec 17, 2018 at 1:50 AM Bruce Kellett > wrote: > >> On Mon, Dec 17, 2018 at 5:59 PM Jason Resch > > wrote: >> >>> On Mon, Dec 17, 2018 at 12:03 AM Bruce Kellett >> > wrote: >>> On Mon, Dec 17, 2018 at 4:30 PM

Re: What is more primary than numbers?

2018-12-17 Thread Philip Thrift
On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 5:53:57 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: > > > > On 12/16/2018 1:56 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > On Sun, Dec 16, 2018 at 3:28 PM Brent Meeker > wrote: > >> >> >> On 12/15/2018 10:24 PM, Jason Resch wrote: >> >> >> >> On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 11:35 PM Brent Meeker > >

Re: What is more primary than numbers?

2018-12-16 Thread Philip Thrift
On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 3:38:59 PM UTC-6, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 8:58:33 PM UTC, Jason wrote: >> >> >> >> On Sun, Dec 16, 2018 at 2:14 PM wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 2:11:06 AM UTC, Jason wrote: On

Re: What is more primary than numbers?

2018-12-16 Thread Philip Thrift
Keep in mind that what an "abstraction" is means different things to mathematical nominalists, constructivists, platonists. - pt On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 3:37:44 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: > > Numbers are an abstraction and generalization from counting. But > counting takes seeing some

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

2018-12-16 Thread Philip Thrift
On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 11:27:50 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > > On 15 Dec 2018, at 00:00, Brent Meeker > wrote: > > > > > > > > On 12/14/2018 2:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >>> On 13 Dec 2018, at 21:24, Brent Meeker > wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On 12/13/2018 3:25

Re: Black holes and computational complexity

2018-12-16 Thread Philip Thrift
On Friday, December 7, 2018 at 11:45:30 AM UTC-6, Mason Green wrote: > > Leonard Susskind thinks there may be a link between the size of a black > hole’s interior (which grows with time) and its computational complexity > (which does likewise). > > At the end of the article there’s even a

Re: What is more primary than numbers?

2018-12-16 Thread Philip Thrift
On Sunday, December 16, 2018 at 3:29:47 AM UTC-6, scerir wrote: > > A *numerus* (literally: "number"*i*) was the term used for a unit of the > Roman > army .. In the Imperial Roman > army (30 BC –

Re: What is more primary than numbers?

2018-12-16 Thread Philip Thrift
On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 7:41:08 PM UTC-6, Jason wrote: > > > > On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 7:28 PM > wrote: > >> >> >> On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 11:04:55 PM UTC, Jason wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Saturday, December 15, 2018, wrote: >>> On Saturday, December 15, 2018

Re: What is more primary than numbers?

2018-12-15 Thread Philip Thrift
On Saturday, December 15, 2018 at 10:44:41 AM UTC-6, Jason wrote: > > Kids in school are taught the digits of Pi go on forever. > Also known as religious indoctrination. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5j-fVqhRHA - pt -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the

Re: What is more primary than numbers?

2018-12-15 Thread Philip Thrift
On Friday, December 14, 2018 at 10:36:29 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: > > > > On 12/14/2018 10:41 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > One type of objection might be that matter is a mystery, but math > > isn't. But I think complexity theorists (like Chaitin) have shown that &

Re: Where Max Tegmark is really wrong

2018-12-15 Thread Philip Thrift
On Friday, December 14, 2018 at 8:43:32 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: > > > > On 12/11/2018 12:04 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 1:53:50 PM UTC-6, agrays...@gmail.com > wrote: >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, Decem

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

2018-12-14 Thread Philip Thrift
On Friday, December 14, 2018 at 5:00:33 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: > > > > On 12/14/2018 2:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 13 Dec 2018, at 21:24, Brent Meeker > wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> On 12/13/2018 3:25 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > But that is the same as saying proof=>truth. >

Re: What is more primary than numbers?

2018-12-14 Thread Philip Thrift
On Friday, December 14, 2018 at 9:16:58 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > Mathematics is immaterial, but it makes no sense to say it is fiction, > unless deciding that Aristotle is true and Plato is wrong, but I would need > some evidences for this, which are literally never given. > >

Re: Where Max Tegmark is really wrong

2018-12-14 Thread Philip Thrift
On Friday, December 14, 2018 at 5:05:28 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 13 Dec 2018, at 20:12, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Thursday, December 13, 2018 at 10:27:29 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 13 Dec 2018, at 15:12,

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

2018-12-14 Thread Philip Thrift
On Friday, December 14, 2018 at 4:49:33 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 13 Dec 2018, at 21:05, Brent Meeker > > wrote: > > > > On 12/13/2018 3:18 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > *Automating Gödel'’s Ontological Proof of God’s Existence ¨ with > Higher-order Automated Theorem Provers* >

Re: Class calculus and conscious AIs

2018-12-14 Thread Philip Thrift
On Thursday, December 13, 2018 at 9:18:47 PM UTC-6, Mason Green wrote: > > Hi, I’m wondering if any of you have read this paper and if so, what do > you think about it. The author says he’s discovered a new kind of > mathematics that could give rise to machine consciousness. A few other >

Re: Where Max Tegmark is really wrong

2018-12-13 Thread Philip Thrift
On Thursday, December 13, 2018 at 1:12:35 PM UTC-6, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Thursday, December 13, 2018 at 10:27:29 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 13 Dec 2018, at 15:12, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thursday, Dece

Re: Where Max Tegmark is really wrong

2018-12-13 Thread Philip Thrift
On Thursday, December 13, 2018 at 10:27:29 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 13 Dec 2018, at 15:12, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Thursday, December 13, 2018 at 5:34:48 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 12

Re: What is more primary than numbers?

2018-12-13 Thread Philip Thrift
On Thursday, December 13, 2018 at 10:44:04 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 13 Dec 2018, at 15:31, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Thursday, December 13, 2018 at 6:01:59 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 12 Dec 2018, at 21:33, P

Re: What is more primary than numbers?

2018-12-13 Thread Philip Thrift
On Thursday, December 13, 2018 at 6:01:59 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 12 Dec 2018, at 21:33, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 1:39:12 PM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: >> >> On Tue, Dec 11, 2018 at 4:56 PM Jason

Re: Where Max Tegmark is really wrong

2018-12-13 Thread Philip Thrift
On Thursday, December 13, 2018 at 5:34:48 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 12 Dec 2018, at 19:38, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 3:51:04 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 11 Dec 2018, at 19:32, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: >> >> >> SNIP >> >>>

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

2018-12-13 Thread Philip Thrift
On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 9:30:10 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: > > > the mathematical idea of "true" is very different from the common one. > > Brent > > > This reminds me of the "truth" the guys on *The Big Bang Theory* refer to a lot: They have arguments of what would be the case (be

Reversible programming

2018-12-13 Thread Philip Thrift
*some references* *A reversible programming language and its invertible self-interpreter* https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1244404 A reversible programming language supports deterministic forward and backward computation. We formalize the programming language Janus and prove its

Re: Where Max Tegmark is really wrong

2018-12-12 Thread Philip Thrift
On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 5:55:13 PM UTC-6, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 11:41:13 PM UTC, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 5:21:15 PM UTC-6, agrays...@gmail.com >> wro

Re: Where Max Tegmark is really wrong

2018-12-12 Thread Philip Thrift
On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 5:21:15 PM UTC-6, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 11:13:10 PM UTC, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 3:30:46 PM UTC-6, agrays...@gmail.com >> wro

Re: Where Max Tegmark is really wrong

2018-12-12 Thread Philip Thrift
On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 3:30:46 PM UTC-6, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 6:57:33 PM UTC, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 10:07:13 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>

Re: What is more primary than numbers?

2018-12-12 Thread Philip Thrift
On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 1:39:12 PM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: > > On Tue, Dec 11, 2018 at 4:56 PM Jason Resch > wrote: > > >> Without physics reality would not need a foundation because there >>> would be no reality, there would be nothing. And nothing could be explained >>> not

Re: Where Max Tegmark is really wrong

2018-12-12 Thread Philip Thrift
On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 10:07:13 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 11 Dec 2018, at 20:53, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 7:30:32 PM UTC, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, December 11,

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

2018-12-12 Thread Philip Thrift
On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 11:18:48 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 12 Dec 2018, at 12:54, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 5:09:00 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 11 Dec 2018, at 12:58,

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

2018-12-12 Thread Philip Thrift
On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 5:09:00 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 11 Dec 2018, at 12:58, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 5:41:49 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 11 Dec 2018, at

Re: Where Max Tegmark is really wrong

2018-12-11 Thread Philip Thrift
On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 5:20:22 PM UTC-6, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 8:04:11 PM UTC, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 1:53:50 PM UTC-6, agrays...@gmail.com >> wrote: >

Re: What is more primary than numbers?

2018-12-11 Thread Philip Thrift
On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 3:44:26 PM UTC-6, Jason wrote: > > > > On Tue, Dec 11, 2018 at 1:20 PM Brent Meeker > wrote: > >> >> >> On 12/11/2018 11:06 AM, Jason Resch wrote: >> >> >> >> On Tue, Dec 11, 2018 at 12:53 PM Philip Th

Re: Where Max Tegmark is really wrong

2018-12-11 Thread Philip Thrift
On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 1:53:50 PM UTC-6, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 7:30:32 PM UTC, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 1:02:52 PM UTC-6, agrays...@gmail.com >> wrote: >

Re: What is more primary than numbers?

2018-12-11 Thread Philip Thrift
On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 1:04:41 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: > > > > On 12/11/2018 9:52 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 11:29:13 AM UTC-6, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 12/11/2018 12:31 AM, Philip Thrift wrote:

Re: Where Max Tegmark is really wrong

2018-12-11 Thread Philip Thrift
On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 1:02:52 PM UTC-6, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 6:44:34 PM UTC, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 12:32:51 PM UTC-6, agrays...@gmail.com >>

Re: What is more primary than numbers?

2018-12-11 Thread Philip Thrift
On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 12:45:13 PM UTC-6, Jason wrote: > > > > On Tue, Dec 11, 2018 at 11:29 AM Brent Meeker > wrote: > >> >> >> On 12/11/2018 12:31 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Monday, December 10, 2018 at 7:05:1

Re: Where Max Tegmark is really wrong

2018-12-11 Thread Philip Thrift
On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 12:32:51 PM UTC-6, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > * As for physicists being materialists in the sense of believing there is > nothing underlying matter as its cause, I have never heard that position > articulated by any physicist, in person or on the Internet.

Re: What is more primary than numbers?

2018-12-11 Thread Philip Thrift
On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 12:13:14 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: > > > > On 12/9/2018 11:38 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Sunday, December 9, 2018 at 8:43:59 PM UTC-6, Jason wrote: >> >> >> >> On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 2:02 PM Philip Thrift w

Re: What is more primary than numbers?

2018-12-11 Thread Philip Thrift
On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 11:29:13 AM UTC-6, Brent wrote: > > > > On 12/11/2018 12:31 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Monday, December 10, 2018 at 7:05:17 PM UTC-6, Jason wrote: >> >> >> >> No one is refuting the existence of

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

2018-12-11 Thread Philip Thrift
On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 5:41:49 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 11 Dec 2018, at 12:11, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > Nothing is "confirmed" and "made precise". > > (Derrida, Rorty, …) > > > That would make Derrida

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

2018-12-11 Thread Philip Thrift
On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 4:21:07 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 9 Dec 2018, at 21:45, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Sunday, December 9, 2018 at 6:03:27 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 7 Dec 2018, at 21:17, Philip Thr

Re: What is more primary than numbers?

2018-12-11 Thread Philip Thrift
On Monday, December 10, 2018 at 7:05:17 PM UTC-6, Jason wrote: > > > > No one is refuting the existence of matter, only the idea that matter is > primary. That is, that matter is not derivative from something more > fundamental. > > Jason > I can understand an (immaterial) computationalism

Re: What is more primary than numbers?

2018-12-10 Thread Philip Thrift
On Monday, December 10, 2018 at 5:59:44 PM UTC-6, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Monday, December 10, 2018 at 4:58:24 PM UTC-6, Jason wrote: >> >> >>> Supposing every thing you write above is true, how does this produce the

Re: What is more primary than numbers?

2018-12-10 Thread Philip Thrift
On Monday, December 10, 2018 at 4:58:24 PM UTC-6, Jason wrote: > > >> Supposing every thing you write above is true, how does this produce the >> illusion of matter? TIA, AG >> >>> >>> >> > This is explained in Bruno's work: >

Re: What is more primary than numbers?

2018-12-10 Thread Philip Thrift
On Monday, December 10, 2018 at 11:00:17 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 9 Dec 2018, at 21:02, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Sunday, December 9, 2018 at 9:36:39 AM UTC-6, Jason wrote: >> >> >> >> On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 2:53

Re: What is more primary than numbers?

2018-12-09 Thread Philip Thrift
On Sunday, December 9, 2018 at 8:43:59 PM UTC-6, Jason wrote: > > > > On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 2:02 PM Philip Thrift > wrote: > >> >> >> On Sunday, December 9, 2018 at 9:36:39 AM UTC-6, Jason wrote: >>> >>> >&

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

2018-12-09 Thread Philip Thrift
On Sunday, December 9, 2018 at 6:03:27 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 7 Dec 2018, at 21:17, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Friday, December 7, 2018 at 9:39:15 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 7 Dec 2018, at 12:38, Philip Thr

Re: What is more primary than numbers?

2018-12-09 Thread Philip Thrift
On Sunday, December 9, 2018 at 9:36:39 AM UTC-6, Jason wrote: > > > > On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 2:53 AM Philip Thrift > wrote: > >> >> >> On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 2:27:45 PM UTC-6, Jason wrote: >>> >>> >>> I think truth is p

Re: What is more primary than numbers?

2018-12-09 Thread Philip Thrift
On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 2:27:45 PM UTC-6, Jason wrote: > > > I think truth is primitive. > > Jason > As a matter of linguistics (and philosophy), *truth* and *matter* are linked: "As a matter of fact, ..." "The truth of the matter is ..." "It matters that ..." ... [

Re: What is more primary than numbers?

2018-12-08 Thread Philip Thrift
On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 1:02:25 PM UTC-6, Jason wrote: > > > > On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 4:04 AM Philip Thrift > wrote: > >> >> What is more primary than numbers? >> >> 1. Numbers come from counting. >> > > Numbers come from relati

What is more primary than numbers?

2018-12-08 Thread Philip Thrift
What is more primary than numbers? 1. Numbers come from counting. But one counts things (things that are not numbers themselves, in the primitive case). So the things one counts + the one that counts must be more primary than numbers. 2. Numbers come from lambda calculus (LC). But LC - a

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems

2018-12-08 Thread Philip Thrift
On Friday, December 7, 2018 at 5:52:31 PM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 6:40 AM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > >>> >>No program can be executed without a computer that is made of matter >>> and uses energy. >> >> >> >*That contradicts the definition of execution in computer

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

2018-12-07 Thread Philip Thrift
On Friday, December 7, 2018 at 9:39:15 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 7 Dec 2018, at 12:38, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Friday, December 7, 2018 at 4:14:20 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 6 Dec 2018, at 12:33, Philip Thrif

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

2018-12-07 Thread Philip Thrift
On Friday, December 7, 2018 at 4:14:20 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 6 Dec 2018, at 12:33, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Thursday, December 6, 2018 at 5:05:55 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 5 Dec 2018, at 19:20, P

Re: Where Max Tegmark is really wrong

2018-12-06 Thread Philip Thrift
On Thursday, December 6, 2018 at 12:11:31 PM UTC-6, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Thursday, December 6, 2018 at 5:58:21 PM UTC, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thursday, December 6, 2018 at 7:20:18 AM UTC-6, agrays...@gmail.com >> wrot

Re: Where Max Tegmark is really wrong

2018-12-06 Thread Philip Thrift
day, December 3, 2018 at 3:37:13 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 2 Dec 2018, at 21:25, Philip Thrift wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sunday, December 2, 2018 at 2:02:43 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: >>>> >>>> >>&

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

2018-12-06 Thread Philip Thrift
On Thursday, December 6, 2018 at 5:05:55 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 5 Dec 2018, at 19:20, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, December 5, 2018 at 5:29:44 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 4 Dec 2018, at 17:48, Phil

Re: Chaos makes axioms unnecessary

2018-12-05 Thread Philip Thrift
On Wednesday, December 5, 2018 at 9:54:05 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: > > > > On 12/5/2018 11:00 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > "How many axioms would be needed [to model nature]?...if we look at the > universe in totality and not bracket any subset of phenomena, t

Chaos makes axioms unnecessary

2018-12-05 Thread Philip Thrift
"How many axioms would be needed [to model nature]?...if we look at the universe in totality and not bracket any subset of phenomena, t*he mathematics we would need would have no axioms at all* It is only the way we look at the universe that gives us the illusion of structure." Chaos

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

2018-12-05 Thread Philip Thrift
On Wednesday, December 5, 2018 at 5:29:44 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 4 Dec 2018, at 17:48, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > >> >> >> On the truth of computationalism, I mean to express emphatically that >> *computationalism >> is indeed

Re: Where Max Tegmark is really wrong

2018-12-05 Thread Philip Thrift
On Wednesday, December 5, 2018 at 10:05:44 AM UTC-6, Mark Buda wrote: > > Philip Thrift > writes: > > > On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 4:50:22 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: > > > > On 12/4/2018 11:50 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, Decembe

Re: Measuring a system in a superposition of states vs in a mixed state

2018-12-05 Thread Philip Thrift
On Wednesday, December 5, 2018 at 1:55:22 AM UTC-6, Bruce wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 6:08 PM Philip Thrift > wrote: > >> >>> As has been pointed out, path integrals are a calculational tool, not an >>> interpretation. >>> >> >>

Re: Measuring a system in a superposition of states vs in a mixed state

2018-12-04 Thread Philip Thrift
On Wednesday, December 5, 2018 at 12:53:45 AM UTC-6, Bruce wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 5:43 PM Philip Thrift > wrote: > >> On Wednesday, December 5, 2018 at 12:28:19 AM UTC-6, Bruce wrote: >>> >>> On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 5:19 PM Philip Thrift wrote: >

Re: Measuring a system in a superposition of states vs in a mixed state

2018-12-04 Thread Philip Thrift
On Wednesday, December 5, 2018 at 12:28:19 AM UTC-6, Bruce wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 5:19 PM Philip Thrift > wrote: > >> On Wednesday, December 5, 2018 at 12:00:18 AM UTC-6, Bruce wrote: >>> >>> On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 4:51 PM Philip Thrift wrote: &

Re: Measuring a system in a superposition of states vs in a mixed state

2018-12-04 Thread Philip Thrift
On Wednesday, December 5, 2018 at 12:00:18 AM UTC-6, Bruce wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 4:51 PM Philip Thrift > wrote: > >> On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 11:39:43 PM UTC-6, Bruce wrote: >>> >>> On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 3:53 PM Philip Thrift wrote: &

Re: Measuring a system in a superposition of states vs in a mixed state

2018-12-04 Thread Philip Thrift
On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 11:39:43 PM UTC-6, Bruce wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 3:53 PM Philip Thrift > wrote: > >> On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 10:28:39 PM UTC-6, Philip Thrift wrote: >>> >>> On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 3:45:32 PM UTC-6,

Re: Measuring a system in a superposition of states vs in a mixed state

2018-12-04 Thread Philip Thrift
On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 10:28:39 PM UTC-6, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 3:45:32 PM UTC-6, Bruce wrote: >> >> On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 6:58 AM Philip Thrift wrote: >> >>> >>> On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 1:5

Re: Where Max Tegmark is really wrong

2018-12-04 Thread Philip Thrift
On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 10:40:36 PM UTC-6, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > > On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 4:50:22 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 12/4/2018 11:50 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >>

Re: Where Max Tegmark is really wrong

2018-12-04 Thread Philip Thrift
On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 4:50:22 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: > > > > On 12/4/2018 11:50 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 1:46:44 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 12/4/2018 12:06 AM, Philip Thrif

Re: Measuring a system in a superposition of states vs in a mixed state

2018-12-04 Thread Philip Thrift
On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 3:45:32 PM UTC-6, Bruce wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 6:58 AM Philip Thrift > wrote: > >> >> On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 1:53:15 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 12/4/2018 12:25 AM, Phil

Re: Extended Wigner’s Friend

2018-12-04 Thread Philip Thrift
On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 2:09:06 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: > > > > On 12/4/2018 1:02 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > Fay Dowker [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fay_Dowker ] gives a short > > summary of "sum over histories" here (and why she

Re: Measuring a system in a superposition of states vs in a mixed state

2018-12-04 Thread Philip Thrift
On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 1:53:15 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: > > > > On 12/4/2018 12:25 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Monday, December 3, 2018 at 9:00:26 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 12/3/2018 8:50 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >&g

Re: Where Max Tegmark is really wrong

2018-12-04 Thread Philip Thrift
On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 1:46:44 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: > > > > On 12/4/2018 12:06 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > Can you give an example of "truth in the programming" and how it differs >> from the mathematical idea of true and the correspon

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

2018-12-04 Thread Philip Thrift
On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 6:37:01 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 4 Dec 2018, at 11:39, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 4:25:37 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 3 Dec 2018, at 23:01, Philip Thr

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

2018-12-04 Thread Philip Thrift
On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 4:25:37 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 3 Dec 2018, at 23:01, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Monday, December 3, 2018 at 1:24:30 PM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 2 Dec 2018, at 13:24, Philip Thr

Re: Extended Wigner’s Friend

2018-12-04 Thread Philip Thrift
On Monday, December 3, 2018 at 7:47:02 PM UTC-6, Mason Green wrote: > > Here’s a recent editorial I found in the magazine arguing against > Many-Worlds on the grounds that it denies the reality of experience or the > self. ( >

Re: Measuring a system in a superposition of states vs in a mixed state

2018-12-04 Thread Philip Thrift
On Monday, December 3, 2018 at 9:00:26 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: > > > > On 12/3/2018 8:50 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 3 Dec 2018, at 10:35, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Sunday, December 2, 2018 at 8:17:54 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: >> >&

Re: Where Max Tegmark is really wrong

2018-12-04 Thread Philip Thrift
On Monday, December 3, 2018 at 7:46:22 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: > > > > On 12/3/2018 9:59 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > But that is close to the solipsist move. The fact that we cannot define >> truth does not entail that some notion of truth does not make sense.

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

2018-12-03 Thread Philip Thrift
On Monday, December 3, 2018 at 1:24:30 PM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 2 Dec 2018, at 13:24, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Sunday, December 2, 2018 at 5:23:15 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 29 Nov 2018, at 20:00, Philip Thr

Re: Where Max Tegmark is really wrong

2018-12-03 Thread Philip Thrift
On Monday, December 3, 2018 at 11:59:21 AM UTC-6, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Monday, December 3, 2018 at 9:12:54 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 2 Dec 2018, at 14:45, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Sunday, Dec

Re: Where Max Tegmark is really wrong

2018-12-03 Thread Philip Thrift
On Monday, December 3, 2018 at 9:12:54 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 2 Dec 2018, at 14:45, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Sunday, December 2, 2018 at 6:52:38 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 30 Nov 2018, at 17:44, Philip Thri

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

2018-12-03 Thread Philip Thrift
On Monday, December 3, 2018 at 5:05:57 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > > You assume a primary physical reality. I do not, and on the contrary show > that this idea is contradictory with the Mechanist theory. > > > Since Matter (a material computer) can compute Mechanism, I don't see how

Re: Measuring a system in a superposition of states vs in a mixed state

2018-12-03 Thread Philip Thrift
On Sunday, December 2, 2018 at 8:17:54 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: > > > > On 12/2/2018 5:14 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Sunday, December 2, 2018 at 4:25:04 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 12/2/2018 11:42 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: >&

Re: Measuring a system in a superposition of states vs in a mixed state

2018-12-02 Thread Philip Thrift
On Sunday, December 2, 2018 at 4:25:04 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: > > > > On 12/2/2018 11:42 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Sunday, December 2, 2018 at 8:13:48 AM UTC-6, agrays...@gmail.com > wrote: >> >> >> *Obviously, from a one-world perspectiv

Re: Where Max Tegmark is really wrong

2018-12-02 Thread Philip Thrift
On Sunday, December 2, 2018 at 2:02:43 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: > > > > On 12/2/2018 4:58 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 30 Nov 2018, at 19:22, Brent Meeker > > wrote: > > > > On 11/30/2018 1:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > Perspectivism is a form of modalism. > > > Nietzsche is vindicated.

Re: Measuring a system in a superposition of states vs in a mixed state

2018-12-02 Thread Philip Thrift
On Sunday, December 2, 2018 at 8:13:48 AM UTC-6, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > *Obviously, from a one-world perspective, only one history survives for a > single trial. But to even grossly approach anything describable as > "Darwinian", you have to identify characteristics of histories

Re: Where Max Tegmark is really wrong

2018-12-02 Thread Philip Thrift
On Sunday, December 2, 2018 at 6:52:38 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 30 Nov 2018, at 17:44, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Friday, November 30, 2018 at 6:39:19 AM UTC-6, agrays...@gmail.com > wrote: >> >> >> >> On Friday, No

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

2018-12-02 Thread Philip Thrift
On Sunday, December 2, 2018 at 5:26:14 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 29 Nov 2018, at 20:24, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Thursday, November 29, 2018 at 10:44:05 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 27 Nov 2018, at 20:21, Brent

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

2018-12-02 Thread Philip Thrift
On Sunday, December 2, 2018 at 5:23:15 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 29 Nov 2018, at 20:00, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Thursday, November 29, 2018 at 10:27:00 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 27 Nov 2018, at 18:50,

Re: Measuring a system in a superposition of states vs in a mixed state

2018-12-01 Thread Philip Thrift
On Saturday, December 1, 2018 at 10:12:53 AM UTC-6, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Friday, November 30, 2018 at 8:53:43 AM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> >> I think that the comparison with Darwin makes sense, and in both case, >> there are many “fittest” entities. >> > > > *IMO,

Re: Where Max Tegmark is really wrong

2018-11-30 Thread Philip Thrift
On Friday, November 30, 2018 at 6:39:19 AM UTC-6, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Friday, November 30, 2018 at 9:13:29 AM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> >> *This may be a simplistic pov, but since there was IMO no Original Sin, >> there was no need for a Sacrifice for its forgiveness.

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

2018-11-29 Thread Philip Thrift
What does this mean in terms of (the possibility of) making a Star Trek transporter? :) [ https://www.thoughtco.com/star-trek-instantaneous-matter-transport-3072118 ] - pt On Thursday, November 29, 2018 at 8:34:23 PM UTC-6, Monterey wrote: > > My original question was about copying

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

2018-11-29 Thread Philip Thrift
On Thursday, November 29, 2018 at 10:44:05 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 27 Nov 2018, at 20:21, Brent Meeker > > wrote: > > > What is this "primary matter" of which you speak? > > > > X is Primary means basically that we have to assume X (or something judged > enough equivalent). >

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

2018-11-29 Thread Philip Thrift
On Thursday, November 29, 2018 at 10:27:00 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 27 Nov 2018, at 18:50, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, November 27, 2018 at 4:32:53 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 24 Nov 2018, at 17

Re: Measuring a system in a superposition of states vs in a mixed state

2018-11-28 Thread Philip Thrift
On Wednesday, November 28, 2018 at 7:41:03 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > You can derive Schroedinger's equation (even Dirac’s equation) from > Feynman’s formulation. This should be intuitively obvious if you read > Feynman popular book on the Nature of Light. The waves are there. But

Re: Where Max Tegmark is really wrong

2018-11-28 Thread Philip Thrift
On Wednesday, November 28, 2018 at 9:03:42 AM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell wrote: > > On Friday, November 9, 2018 at 6:51:06 PM UTC-6, Bruce wrote: >> >> From: Brent Meeker >> >> >> You're dodging my point. The "issue" of how we have subjective >> experience only seems to be an issue because in

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

2018-11-28 Thread Philip Thrift
On Wednesday, November 28, 2018 at 7:52:46 AM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 28, 2018 at 3:05 AM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > > *What in matter is not simulatable in arithmetic is experience.* >> > > That's just a specific example of a more general c

Re: Measuring a system in a superposition of states vs in a mixed state

2018-11-28 Thread Philip Thrift
On Tuesday, November 27, 2018 at 6:07:41 PM UTC-6, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, November 27, 2018 at 10:47:08 PM UTC, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, November 27, 2018 at 3:55:16 PM UTC-6, agrays...@gmail.com >> wrot

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