Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-26 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 25 Oct 2012, at 21:17, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, October 25, 2012 2:33:58 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 6:20 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com wrote: Accumulating wealth is hardly an achievement of human progress. Wealth and human progress are

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-25 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, October 25, 2012 2:33:58 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 6:20 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: Accumulating wealth is hardly an achievement of human progress. Wealth and human progress are strongly linked and only in very

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-24 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: it's also true that the letter e is not Shakespeare's play Hamlet, but its part of it. By that analogy, you are crediting the letter e for authoring Hamlet. The letter e did not write Hamlet and neither did one neuron

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-24 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, October 24, 2012 11:17:43 AM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript:wrote: it's also true that the letter e is not Shakespeare's play Hamlet, but its part of it. By that analogy, you are crediting the letter e for

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-24 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: What can you do with your computer that you couldn't do five years ago? Do a good job at understanding the human voice. Beat the 2 best human players at Jeopardy. Drive a car safely for many miles over very rough terrain.

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-24 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, October 24, 2012 12:38:21 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript:wrote: What can you do with your computer that you couldn't do five years ago? Do a good job at understanding the human voice. Beat the 2 best human

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-24 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 1:27 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: What can you do with your computer that you couldn't do five years ago? Do a good job at understanding the human voice. Beat the 2 best human players at Jeopardy. Drive a car safely for many miles over very

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-24 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, October 24, 2012 1:48:14 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 1:27 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: What can you do with your computer that you couldn't do five years ago? Do a good job at understanding the human voice. Beat

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-22 Thread John Clark
On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: The reasons of my neurons are not my personal reasons. True. And it's also true that the letter e is not Shakespeare's play Hamlet, but its part of it. Neurons deal in GABA and acetylcholine. I deal in paychecks and days off.

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-22 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Monday, October 22, 2012 1:39:32 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript:wrote: The reasons of my neurons are not my personal reasons. True. And it's also true that the letter e is not Shakespeare's play Hamlet, but its part of

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-20 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, October 20, 2012 12:50:55 AM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript:wrote: If you can do something for your own personal reasons then you have free will. If you demand that personal reasons still must always come from

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-19 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Oct 2012, at 15:28, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/17/2012 8:45 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Oct 2012, at 15:00, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/16/2012 8:23 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 4:02:44 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: There is of course the idea that the

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-19 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: I do know that it's got to be one or the other. But I have just proved to you that it cannot be either one. So you have just proven that X is not Y and X is not not Y. BULLSHIT! you don't have the wisdom to know when

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-19 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, October 19, 2012 5:03:05 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript:wrote: I do know that it's got to be one or the other. But I have just proved to you that it cannot be either one. So you have just proven that X is not

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-19 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: If you can do something for your own personal reasons then you have free will. If you demand that personal reasons still must always come from outside of the person themselves[...] But I don't demand that at all! You might

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-18 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: You are the one that is saying everything happens for a reason or not for a reason. Yes. Which category do laws fall under? I haven't the slightest idea, but I do know that it's got to be one or the other. Yet you

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-18 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, October 18, 2012 5:04:10 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript:wrote: You are the one that is saying everything happens for a reason or not for a reason. Yes. Which category do laws fall under? I haven't the

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Oct 2012, at 10:02, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 1:38 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: A possible answer is that all possible universes exist and we find ourselves in one of those that has the kind of physical laws leading to observers. I'm

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Oct 2012, at 15:00, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/16/2012 8:23 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 4:02:44 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: There is of course the idea that the universe is actually a simulation but that is more controversial. A tempting idea until we

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-17 Thread Stephen P. King
On 10/17/2012 8:45 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Oct 2012, at 15:00, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/16/2012 8:23 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 4:02:44 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: There is of course the idea that the universe is actually a simulation but that is more

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-17 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: while most people are content to accept that these [physical] 'laws' simply 'are', I am more inclined to question what exactly we mean by that. It's a pity you weren't also inclined to question what exactly we mean

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-17 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, October 17, 2012 1:54:35 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: while most people are content to accept that these [physical] 'laws' simply 'are', I am more inclined to question what exactly we

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-16 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 1:38 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: A possible answer is that all possible universes exist and we find ourselves in one of those that has the kind of physical laws leading to observers. I'm familiar with the Anthropic principle, but what program

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-16 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 4:02:44 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 1:38 AM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: A possible answer is that all possible universes exist and we find ourselves in one of those that has the kind of physical laws

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-16 Thread Stephen P. King
On 10/16/2012 8:23 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 4:02:44 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: There is of course the idea that the universe is actually a simulation but that is more controversial. A tempting idea until we question what it is a simulation of?

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-16 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Did I ever say that I thought computers followed rules? I was under the impression that you believed all computers did was blindly follow programed rules. Apparently not. Not only are your ideas foolish they are inconsistently

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-16 Thread Stephen P. King
Hey John, We get it! You are just making sure that when the Singularity http://singularity.org/what-is-the-singularity/ happens that the AI Overlords will consider you a useful pet. :-[ On 10/16/2012 11:55 AM, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-16 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 11:55:44 AM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript:wrote: Did I ever say that I thought computers followed rules? I was under the impression that you believed all computers did was blindly follow programed

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-16 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 12:34 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: That there are literally laws which physics obeys is a fairy tale. That statement is ignorance pure and simple. How can reason be created for a reason (circular) or created not for a reason I don't understand

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-16 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 1:04:24 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 12:34 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: That there are literally laws which physics obeys is a fairy tale. That statement is ignorance pure and simple. Not at all. I

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-16 Thread meekerdb
On 10/16/2012 10:41 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: *How can reason be created (for the very first time in the cosmos) for a reason (fails because it is circular) * Seems to be a pun on reason = rational thinking and reason = explanatory cause. Brent -- You received this message because you are

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-16 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 3:40:41 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/16/2012 10:41 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: *How can reason be created (for the very first time in the cosmos) for a reason (fails because it is circular) * Seems to be a pun on reason = rational thinking and reason =

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-16 Thread Alberto G. Corona
I can be the result of a tautological causation: natural selection: what is reasonable? what at a certain level in tjhinking beings achieve survival.. what exist? what help to survive. What survives? what perdures. What perdures? waht reproduces. What reproduces? what is sucessfull. What is

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-15 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Just because it looks to us that the computer is following rules doesn't mean that it is. So now you don't like computers because they don't follow rules, before you didn't like computers because they did follow rules. We

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-15 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Monday, October 15, 2012 11:49:52 AM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript:wrote: Just because it looks to us that the computer is following rules doesn't mean that it is. So now you don't like computers because they don't

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-14 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Sunday, October 14, 2012 12:46:38 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: Yes, the Big Bang is a program. There are initial conditions and rules that lead deterministically to the unfolding of the entire

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-14 Thread John Clark
On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: But if a computer beats you at an intelligent task, it would have to be programmed to do so. And you would have to be educated to do so. which means that its intelligence would be that of the programmer. Then how can the

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-14 Thread John Clark
On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: you can see from the differences between conjoined twins, who have the same nature and nurture, the same environment, that they are not the same people That is true they are not the same people, and just like EVERYTHING else

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-14 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Sunday, October 14, 2012 1:42:40 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript:wrote: you can see from the differences between conjoined twins, who have the same nature and nurture, the same environment, that they are not the same

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-14 Thread meekerdb
On 10/14/2012 10:36 AM, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net mailto:rclo...@verizon.net wrote: But if a computer beats you at an intelligent task, it would have to be programmed to do so. And you would have to be educated to do so. which

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-14 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Sunday, October 14, 2012 2:19:14 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/14/2012 10:36 AM, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 Roger Clough rcl...@verizon.net javascript:wrote: But if a computer beats you at an intelligent task, it would have to be programmed to do so. And you would

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-14 Thread meekerdb
On 10/14/2012 11:36 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Sunday, October 14, 2012 2:19:14 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/14/2012 10:36 AM, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 Roger Clough rcl...@verizon.net javascript: wrote: But if a computer beats you at an intelligent task, it

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-13 Thread Roger Clough
Hi John Clark snip ROGER: if you could tell me how to determine if a computer has intelligence JOHN: The same way I determine if one of my fellow human beings is intelligent, if he beats me at a intellectual task then he's intelligent, in fact he's more intelligent than I am at

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-13 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 4:15 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: ROGER: But if a computer beats you at an intelligent task, it would have to be programmed to do so. which means that its intelligence would be that of the programmer. This is always the case. Computers cannot

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, October 13, 2012 6:59:50 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 4:15 AM, Roger Clough rcl...@verizon.netjavascript: wrote: ROGER: But if a computer beats you at an intelligent task, it would have to be programmed to do so. which means that its

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-13 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 10:16 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: But if a human beats you at an intelligent task he would have been programmed to do so - by evolution, by parents, teachers and various other aspects of the environment. So the intelligence of the human is really

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, October 13, 2012 7:49:03 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 10:16 AM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: But if a human beats you at an intelligent task he would have been programmed to do so - by evolution, by parents, teachers and

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-13 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 11:33 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Two identical computers with identical programs taking environmental input from sensors only millimetres apart could produce radically different outputs. For example, the environmental input could be the least

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, October 13, 2012 9:24:15 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 11:33 AM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: Two identical computers with identical programs taking environmental input from sensors only millimetres apart could produce

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-13 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, the Big Bang is a program. There are initial conditions and rules that lead deterministically to the unfolding of the entire multiverse and all its rich content. All of science is an effort to work out details