Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 10:09:02PM +1300, LizR wrote: > On 20 January 2014 19:43, Russell Standish wrote: > > > On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 10:13:22PM -0800, meekerdb wrote: > > > On 1/19/2014 7:09 PM, Russell Standish wrote: > > > >That's not the definition. A rational agent is someone who always >

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 2:01 AM, meekerdb wrote: > "EVERYTHING NOT FORBIDDEN IS COMPULSORY" > -- T.H. White , * > The Once and Future King * > I'll have to update my paper. I thought Murray Gel

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 20 Jan 2014, at 07:27, Stephen Paul King wrote: No! This is not unknown. I am cobbling ideas together, sure, think about it! What are we thinking? If the UD implements or emulates all computations then it implements all worlds, ala Kripke. That would include all models of self-consisten

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 20 Jan 2014, at 06:51, meekerdb wrote: On 1/19/2014 3:41 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Jan 19, 2014, at 3:31 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 1/19/2014 9:45 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: But why should that imply *existence*. It does not. Unless we believe in the axioms, which is the case for element

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 20 Jan 2014, at 01:24, LizR wrote: On 20 January 2014 06:38, Bruno Marchal wrote: We can logically conceive them. Imagine a dead corpse. You can easily conceive that he is not conscious. Now, animate the dead corpse so that it behaves like he was alive, but keep conceiving that it is

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

Is that the motto of the Golden Dawn? On 20 January 2014 20:01, meekerdb wrote: > "EVERYTHING NOT FORBIDDEN IS COMPULSORY" > -- T.H. White , * > The Once and Future King * > > On 1/19/2014 10:

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 20 January 2014 18:55, meekerdb wrote: > > The modeling of the world is in our interpretation of it, a mapping from > the observable world into mathematics, manipulation and inference, and the > interpretation of the result as applying to the observable world. If it > works to a lot of decima

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 20 January 2014 18:51, meekerdb wrote: > > You seem not to appreciate that this dissipates the one essential > advantage of mathematical monism: we understand mathematics (because, I > say, we invent it). But if it's a mere human invention trying to model the > Platonic ding and sich then PA

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 20 January 2014 19:43, Russell Standish wrote: > On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 10:13:22PM -0800, meekerdb wrote: > > On 1/19/2014 7:09 PM, Russell Standish wrote: > > >That's not the definition. A rational agent is someone who always > > >chooses the optimal course of action, not that there might be

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 20 January 2014 16:09, Russell Standish wrote: > On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 01:40:45PM +1300, LizR wrote: > > One problem, surely, in real life is not knowing what the other person's > > "utility function" is? So someone may behave apparently irrationally - > e.g. > > giving away money - because

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 19 Jan 2014, at 23:54, John Mikes wrote: Bruno, let me use simple words (you seem to overcomplicate my input). What IS the 'mind' you PRESERVE? My consciousness. It means that I can surivive in the usal clinical sense, the brain digital replacement. I don't need to define my consciousn

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 19 Jan 2014, at 22:42, meekerdb wrote: On 1/19/2014 4:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 18 Jan 2014, at 05:27, LizR wrote: On 18 January 2014 17:16, meekerdb wrote: On 1/17/2014 5:40 PM, LizR wrote: But apparently the brain has a lot to do with those computations in Platonia, c.f. anesth

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 19 Jan 2014, at 22:41, Russell Standish wrote: On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 11:28:21AM +0100, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 17 Jan 2014, at 21:36, Stephen Paul King wrote: Another take is : http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0403031 Deriving laws from ordering relations That is very good, as Cox appr

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 19 Jan 2014, at 22:31, meekerdb wrote: On 1/19/2014 9:45 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: But why should that imply *existence*. It does not. Unless we believe in the axioms, which is the case for elementary arithmetic. But what does "believe in the axioms" mean. Do we really believe we ca

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 19 Jan 2014, at 22:26, LizR wrote: On 20 January 2014 08:56, meekerdb wrote: On 1/18/2014 7:38 PM, LizR wrote: Or it could be because we, denizens of this physics/universe, invent them. Why would that make it effective, though? After all we also invented fairy tales, and conspiracy th

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 19 Jan 2014, at 21:34, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Bruno, On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 5:24 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 17 Jan 2014, at 21:26, Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Bruno, You wrote: "Physics emerges from the FPI on UD*. It is an open question if there is a winner program,

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 19 Jan 2014, at 21:18, meekerdb wrote: On 1/19/2014 3:42 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 18 Jan 2014, at 01:48, meekerdb wrote: On 1/17/2014 2:04 PM, LizR wrote: On 17 January 2014 18:03, meekerdb wrote: Briefly, computationalism is the idea that you could replace the brain with a Turing

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 19 Jan 2014, at 21:07, meekerdb wrote: On 1/19/2014 2:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I also find it unlikely that the subst level is above the quantum level. Or at least I think that if it's at the quantum level then we can guarantee that the duplication arguments would work (assuming we

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 19 Jan 2014, at 20:35, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 11:38 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 19 Jan 2014, at 03:39, LizR wrote: It would seem that "sufficiently advanced technology" will eventually be able to detect all the neural correlates of consciousness. Betting on

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