Response to R.Hlywka's brain/mind comments

2003-06-05 Thread Eric Hawthorne
R Hlywka wrote:

There are so many things we need to take into consideration. Genetics. 
We are born with a specific preprogramed set of organization and 
hardware. the way the neurons are preorganized, and the way they go 
about utilizing and organizing and transfering specific information. 
We are predisposed if you will. However, there's also nurture. Even 
from starting in the womb, we recieve biorythms of our mother, which 
our whole body sets to. What she ingests, the anxieties she feels. We 
feel. Not that it's a good or bad thing. 
Yes. Ok. I left out some details. One way of looking at it though is 
that the brain
evolved from hard-wired control-system hardware to become a more and 
more general
information processor. This must have something to do with the fact that
the terrestrial environment has lots of different opportunities for an 
ecological
generalist with opposable thumbs, if only that generalist can figure out 
what to
do (how to behave) in novel situation-types.

You could even say that the human brain (cortex?) has distinguished 
itself from
the brains of other animals by the evolution of this general computing 
capability
(and the consequent ability to do abstract thinking, situation-modelling 
with hypotheticals,
conceptualizing, precise but extensible linguistic commucation, 
introspection etc.)
even if (granted) the general computing ability is employed in habitual and
stereotypical ways most of the time, and is optimized to support those 
habitual
or instinctual patterns.

Many other animal species  share with us the hard-wired or firm-wared
kinds of behaviours that you ascribe to our brains. We have gone further
than any of them in generalizing the information-processing and storage
capabilities of our brains so that they are turing-equivalent AND ALSO
still optimized for carrying out instinctual behaviours, albeit in 
creative ways.

You brain is so much more than a computer.. think of it like a galaxy 
or even it's own universe.
I think that's going a little far in the Carl Sagan direction.

This all brings up more questions. What about memory transfer. We code 
our memory by the continious rearangement of pathways. Unless you 
could copy the coding and rearrangement, decode it by that persons 
CODING... 
I don't remember claiming (maybe someone else claimed) you could copy a 
mind.
I do believe we'll eventually be able to build them, (and not out of 
traditional
organic materials) but if we do build them, then once each A-mind
starts processing and assiimilating information from its uniquely 
situated point-of-view
and its unique experiences/learning sessions, then it will become 
different from all
other A-minds and from all other human minds, in the same way that ours are
different from each other because of nurture. There would be ways to mimic
differences in built-in biases, preferences, 
cognition-optimization-directions etc
as well, if that was useful for groups of A-minds.

The task is not only to understand what a human brain does in the process of
its being/becoming a mind. The task is to figure out IN GENERAL what
being a mind is and to figure out how the human brain is doing THAT and
also what are all the things that something other than a human brain would
have to do to be also doing THAT.
Eric




Re: 2C Mary - How minds perceive things and not things

2003-06-05 Thread R Hlywka


Just a note. Think of a brain more than just an intake valve, reacting to 
similar stuff, and not so similar stuff. There are so many things we need to 
take into consideration. Genetics. We are born with a specific preprogramed 
set of organization and hardware. the way the neurons are preorganized, and 
the way they go about utilizing and organizing and transfering specific 
information. We are predisposed if you will. However, there's also nurture. 
Even from starting in the womb, we recieve biorythms of our mother, which 
our whole body sets to. What she ingests, the anxieties she feels. We feel. 
Not that it's a good or bad thing. BEcause I would seriously wonder what 
would happen to a child born in the matrix with no combination of Biorythms 
to build on, it would be like being born empty. that would be your clean 
slate, aside from the genes aspect. Next you have the BIO aspect of our 
hardware. It ain't plastic and metal. It moves and changes and grows. 
Continuously. There are specific pieces that are formed in seperate parts of 
the brain... But that is merely predisposed grow pattern. meaning, our whole 
brain can actually do every tasks that our parts do for us, but through 
evolution, we have managaed to pick up certain precoded hardware forms, if 
you will, that are wired and organized to preform certain ways. Then you get 
the whole consciousness/unconsiousness, combined with your intact of outside 
stimuli, including ingested foods/toxins. That all combines to decide what 
will go on with your brain You brain is so much more than a computer.. 
think of it like a galaxy or even it's own universe. It's predisposed to be 
a certain way. and even if you take out all outside stimuli, it is still 
on... and it will still process and continue changing and revolving without 
anything. each of it's pieces will change , and work around each of them... 
kinda like the conservation of angular momentum, and the way galaxies get 
all squished... but it's SO MUCH MORE. then you add in ONE factor, and 
everything is changed. EVERYTHING. but this is where you get a smart 
galaxy. it can learn to filter out what it feels it does not need to PAY 
ATTENTION TO. It can forget it. It will all get in on some level mind you. 
It will process subliminal messages ect. But it still has the capacity to 
realize what to listen to and what not to. If it has already realized that 
performing X is imorral and wrong, you send it x subliminally, it will not 
suddenly prefrom X... unless you bypass all the wiring, switch to rightbrain 
processing, tell it to either run on auto pilot, or put in some information 
to reorganize the way the mind percieves X as being Okay to preform or not.
The point? I don't know, just giving you guys some info on brains.. To 
actually copy one would be NEAR TO IMPOSSIBLE. unless you could copy the 
position of everysingle neuron and chemical within the brain and send it. 
One wrong positioned neuron, one lost connection... you have a different 
person. ... Mind you, one may not make THAT big of a difference... may be as 
light as having a beer or not. But if you repostion a pathway by mistake. 
Who knows what could happen

This all brings up more questions. What about memory transfer. We code our 
memory by the continious rearangement of pathways. Unless you could copy the 
coding and rearrangement, decode it by that persons CODING... then figure 
out the next persons coding. and recoded the information, then force their 
brain the ralign... it seems impossible. We are each different. to put in 
someones else thought into me, for example. I may just remember my childhood 
in a different light. because it would be reacting to my chemicals, my 
preexisting knowledge, and my makeup of my nuerons, and how they preform.
you would have to develop a way for the brain to learn to accept and digest 
incoming brain knowlegde.
Not that it's not possible. We just have to learn it. and to learn something 
we are not predisposed for, takes a long time. it's like takeing a CD, and 
continuingly puting it in your microwave and hoping that when you push the 
microwave buttons, that instead of Frying the CD and catching the mircowave 
on fire, it will somehoe recognize that a CD is there and mutate to learn 
how to digest it. Mind you the microwave is made of mental.. the brain is 
not.

Not saying it's impossible. the brain would just have to learn some new ways 
of coding.

Which brings to mention... how many other ways of CODING are there? I mean, 
our brain has evolved to the point to where it is now, and it has learned to 
coded certain things certain ways now BY INSTINCT but what if we could 
use our actual processing ability, to realize the next step in eveolution, 
and train our brains to make the change itself?... The only reason why were 
aren't doing it, is because we aren't forced to. If we can find it. then 
offer the brain a route to form around it, who knows what could