Re: Coherent states of a superposition

[Bruno Marchal]

> On 11 Feb 2019, at 13:00, agrayson2...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Monday, February 11, 2019 at 2:20:25 AM UTC, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> 
> On Tuesday, February 5, 2019 at 8:43:59 PM UTC, agrays...@gmail.com <> wrote:
> 
> 
> On Monday, February 4, 2019 at 8:56:57 AM UTC-7, Bruno Marchal wrote:
> 
>> On 3 Feb 2019, at 00:03, agrays...@gmail.com <> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Saturday, February 2, 2019 at 2:59:30 PM UTC-7, agrays...@gmail.com 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> On Saturday, February 2, 2019 at 1:40:29 AM UTC-7, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>> 
>>> On 1 Feb 2019, at 21:29, agrays...@gmail.com <> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Friday, February 1, 2019 at 5:55:30 AM UTC-7, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>> 
 On 31 Jan 2019, at 21:10, agrays...@gmail.com <> wrote:
 
 
 
 On Thursday, January 31, 2019 at 6:47:12 AM UTC-7, Bruno Marchal wrote:
 
> On 31 Jan 2019, at 01:28, agrays...@gmail.com <> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 2:38:58 PM UTC-7, agrays...@gmail.com 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 5:16:05 AM UTC-7, Bruno Marchal wrote:
> 
>> On 30 Jan 2019, at 02:59, agrays...@gmail.com <> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Tuesday, January 29, 2019 at 4:37:34 AM UTC-7, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>> 
>>> On 28 Jan 2019, at 22:50, agrays...@gmail.com <> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Friday, January 25, 2019 at 7:33:05 AM UTC-7, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>> 
 On 24 Jan 2019, at 09:29, agrays...@gmail.com <> wrote:
 
 
 
 On Sunday, January 20, 2019 at 11:54:43 AM UTC, agrays...@gmail.com 
  wrote:
 
 
 On Sunday, January 20, 2019 at 9:56:17 AM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:
 
> On 18 Jan 2019, at 18:50, agrays...@gmail.com <> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Friday, January 18, 2019 at 12:09:58 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:
> 
>> On 17 Jan 2019, at 14:48, agrays...@gmail.com <> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Thursday, January 17, 2019 at 12:36:07 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 17 Jan 2019, at 09:33, agrays...@gmail.com <> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thursday, January 17, 2019 at 3:58:48 AM UTC, Brent wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 1/16/2019 7:25 PM, agrays...@gmail.com <> wrote:
 
 
 On Monday, January 14, 2019 at 6:12:43 AM UTC, Brent wrote:
 
 
 On 1/13/2019 9:51 PM, agrays...@gmail.com <> wrote:
> This means, to me, that the arbitrary phase angles have 
> absolutely no effect on the resultant interference pattern which 
> is observed. But isn't this what the phase angles are supposed to 
> effect? AG
 
 The screen pattern is determined by relative phase angles for the 
 different paths that reach the same point on the screen.  The 
 relative angles only depend on different path lengths, so the 
 overall phase angle is irrelevant.
 
 Brent
 
 Sure, except there areTWO forms of phase interference in Wave 
 Mechanics; the one you refer to above, and another discussed in 
 the Stackexchange links I previously posted. In the latter case, 
 the wf is expressed as a superposition, say of two states, where 
 we consider two cases; a multiplicative complex phase shift is 
 included prior to the sum, and different complex phase shifts 
 multiplying each component, all of the form e^i (theta). Easy to 
 show that interference exists in the latter case, but not the 
 former. Now suppose we take the inner product of the wf with the 
 ith eigenstate of the superposition, in order to calculate the 
 probability of measuring the eigenvalue of the ith eigenstate, 
 applying one of the postulates of QM, keeping in mind that each 
 eigenstate is multiplied by a DIFFERENT complex phase shift.  If 
 we further assume the eigenstates are mutually orthogonal, the 
 probability of measuring each eigenvalue does NOT depend on the 
 different phase shifts. What happened to the interference 
 demonstrated by the Stackexchange links? TIA, AG 
 
>>> Your measurement projected it out. It's like measuring which slit 
>>> the photon goes through...it eliminates the interference.
>>> 
>>> Brent
>>> 
>>> That's what I suspected; that going to an orthogonal basis, I 
>>> departed from the examples in Stackexchange where an arbitrary 
>>> superposition is 

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

[Philip Thrift]

On Monday, February 11, 2019 at 9:24:18 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
>
> On 11 Feb 2019, at 00:34, Philip Thrift > 
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Two recent books:
>
> The First Minds: Caterpillars, Karyotes, and Consciousness
> Arthur S. Reber
> https://books.google.com/books/about/The_First_Minds.html?id=RBLEugEACAAJ
>
> Brain-Mind: From Neurons to Consciousness and Creativity
> Paul Thagard
> https://books.google.com/books/about/Brain_Mind.html?id=jJjHvAEACAAJ
>
> via
> When Did Consciousness Begin?
> Paul Thagard
>
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/hot-thought/201901/when-did-consciousness-begin
>
>
>
>
> I compare with the theology of the computationalist Universal Turing 
> machine’s theology.
>
> (So I do the blasphemy some times, and it is important that keep in mind 
> the necessary interrogation point). I have not look at the answer of 
> others, to test this later …).
>
> Consciousness is just the “instinctive” or “automated” belief/anticipation 
> concerning a possible reality.
>
>
>
>
> Thagard's 10 hypotheses:
>
> 1. Consciousness has always existed, because God is conscious and eternal.
>
>
> Consciousness has always existed, because all universal machine/number are 
> conscious and “eternal” (out of time).
>
> Is God conscious? Open problem.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 2. Consciousness began when the universe formed, around 13.7 billion years 
> ago. 
>
>
>
> This cannot be. But the event “13 billion years ago” and many variants 
> occurs "all the time” (or all the number-of-step of all universal 
> dovetailing) in the arithmetical reality.
>
> Those are important events in our history, but the consciousness which 
> does the history selection was there “before”.
>
>
>
>
>
> 3. Consciousness began with single-celled life, around 3.7 billion years 
> ago (Reber). 
>
>
>
> Not really, but the consciousness of the universal machine get a physical 
> stable implementations, apparently relatively to us. We get many universal 
> entities capable of interacting with a solid notion of resources. 
>
>
>
>
>
> 4. Consciousness began with multicellular plants, around 850 million years 
> ago. 
>
>
> In our histories, which “tautologically” are those semantical statifying 
> the logic of the material modes of self-reference, which seems the case 
> thanks to the quantum and Gödel (which enforces the distinction between []p 
> and []p & <>t in the provable part of the machine in arithmetic.
>
> Again, important events in our history, but consciousness was “there 
> before”.
>
>
>
>
>
> 5. Consciousness began when animals such as jellyfish got thousands of 
> neurons, around 580 million years ago. 
>
>
>
> That’s about the time the soul of the machine falls, and they begin to 
> hallucinate and believe in what they were conscious of, and thus get 
> partially deluded. The universal machine get Löbian. Soon, they will even 
> begin to believe in the axiom of infinity, and calculus, if not Lagrangian 
> (grin).
>
>
>
>
> 6. Consciousness began when insects and fish developed larger brains with 
> about a million neurons (honeybees) or 10 million neurons (zebrafish) 
> around 560 million years ago. 
>
>
> It has been discovered that bees adds and multiplies little numbers, when 
> they need, to get pollen from mathematical human teacher! But I still think 
> that spider, especially the hunters, go much farer in their conception of 
> reality as a video illustrates well here. At 0.44 she explores and get a 
> surprise when “not seeing a spider where expected”, that occurs two times, 
> and the second times she run away!
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij4pdf49bxw
>
>
>
>
> 7. Consciousness began when animals such as birds and mammals developed 
> much larger brains with hundreds of millions neurons, around 200 million 
> years ago. [Thagard]
>
>
> Much larger brain enlarges the number of stupidity you can asserts, but of 
> course, the catastrophes are limited until … the universal (natural) 
> languages develops … 
>
>
>
>
> 8. Consciousness began with humans, homo sapiens, around 200,000 years ago.
>
>
> “Homo sapiens” cannot be asserted by the homo if he is really sapiens … 
>
> Let us say that the peculiar human Intelligence, accompanied by human 
> stupidity, begin to develop.
>
> Intelligence and stupidity are two big friends, they never separate each 
> other.
>
>
>
>
>
> 9. Consciousness began when human culture became advanced, around 3000 
> years ago (Julian Jaynes).  
>
>
> Birth of the little ego. Birth of cruelty and the human suffering.
>
>
>
>
> 10. Consciousness does not exist, as it is just a scientific mistake 
> (behaviorism} or a “user illusion” (Daniel Dennett). 
>
>
> Negation of the first person indubitable: you don’t exist. Dennett is 
> logically correct, as this follows from its ontological commitment in both 
> primary matter and Mechanism. 
>
> Of course, it is simpler to just omit such an ontological commitment.
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
Dennett is (or was - Philip Goff suggested he might 

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

[Philip Thrift]

On Monday, February 11, 2019 at 9:56:12 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
>
> On 11 Feb 2019, at 01:42, Lawrence Crowell  > wrote:
>
> I do not hold to the idea of panpsychism
>
>
> Nor do I.
>
>
>
Panpsychism 

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/panpsychism/
https://www.iep.utm.edu/panpsych/

is a spectrum going from *micropsychism* to *cosmopsychism*.

Sometimes people say they are not panpsychist, and then when you* read what 
they write* you see they write like they are some type of panpsychist.

- pt

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Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

[Brent Meeker]

On 2/11/2019 7:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 11 Feb 2019, at 01:24, Brent Meeker  wrote:



On 2/10/2019 3:34 PM, Philip Thrift wrote:


Two recent books:

The First Minds: Caterpillars, Karyotes, and Consciousness
Arthur S. Reber
https://books.google.com/books/about/The_First_Minds.html?id=RBLEugEACAAJ

Brain-Mind: From Neurons to Consciousness and Creativity
Paul Thagard
https://books.google.com/books/about/Brain_Mind.html?id=jJjHvAEACAAJ

via
When Did Consciousness Begin?
Paul Thagard
https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/hot-thought/201901/when-did-consciousness-begin

Thagard's 10 hypotheses:

1. Consciousness has always existed, because God is conscious and eternal.

2. Consciousness began when the universe formed, around 13.7 billion years ago.

3. Consciousness began with single-celled life, around 3.7 billion years ago 
(Reber).

4. Consciousness began with multicellular plants, around 850 million years ago.

5. Consciousness began when animals such as jellyfish got thousands of neurons, 
around 580 million years ago.

6. Consciousness began when insects and fish developed larger brains with about 
a million neurons (honeybees) or 10 million neurons (zebrafish) around 560 
million years ago.

7. Consciousness began when animals such as birds and mammals developed much 
larger brains with hundreds of millions neurons, around 200 million years ago. 
[Thagard]

8. Consciousness began with humans, homo sapiens, around 200,000 years ago.

9. Consciousness began when human culture became advanced, around 3000 years 
ago (Julian Jaynes).

10. Consciousness does not exist, as it is just a scientific mistake 
(behaviorism} or a “user illusion” (Daniel Dennett).

A good exposition, but I wish he had taken some time to consider what is 
consciousness.  I think he recognizes that there are different kinds and levels 
of consciousness, but he doesn't make it clear what they are; how are they 
related to memory and communication and planning.  It seems clear to me that 
different kinds and levels of consciousness appeared at different times.


Are you OK that consciousness is, from the first person perspective, something 
which can be said to be

1) true

?? Propositions are true (or false).

2) knowable
I  think that distinguishes one level of consciousness: self-reflection, 
perceiving that you are conscious.  But I doubt that spiders have self 
reflection. I suspect it appears in social animals as an evolutionary 
adaptation, seeing yourself as others see you.



2) non provable

Proof is a relation between propositions mediated by rules of inference.

3) indubitable

Ok.

4) non definable
?? When we talk about consciousness we rely on ostensive definition to 
understand one another: "You know that feeling you get when you step on 
a tack?"

5) anticipable

If yes, then all universal machine is confronted with this, although only 
Löbian machine can assert this, with precaution.

Consciousness is not much more than the first person belief in some reality.
It's a recognition that reality consists of "me and not-me".  But that 
is the most basic level.  There is also the hypothesis of other minds 
and of other's view of yourself.  There is consciousness of one's place 
and in time and history; which probably requires language.


Brent



It accelerates the learning of distinguishing prey and predators for the 
self-moving self-eating types of creatures.

There are many possible experience of consciousness, and even sorts of state of 
consciousness, from highly dissociative, with or without amnesia, to many 
mundane state, like each of us at all instant of our normal waking life. It 
makes easy to get new beliefs and to abandon ancient beliefs. When Löbian, it 
generates “fear” (the local expectation of local unsatisfiabilty condition).

Bruno






Brent

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Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

[Philip Thrift]

Interest in the psychical (experience, consciousness) aspect in all 
biological levels has sort of taken off recently, it seems.

cf.

Cosmopsychism, Micropsychism, and the Grounding Relation 

Philip Goff 



Language is not experience/consciousness of course, but I think there is 
some sort of connection between the existence of protolanguages (of lower 
level animals) and protoconsciousnesses.


- pt



On Sunday, February 10, 2019 at 6:42:20 PM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>
> I do not hold to the idea of panpsychism and the existence of God is 
> something that can be dismissed with no loss of understanding of reality. 
> It is harder to know about consciousness in living things. I hesitate in 
> some ways to think that prokaryotes are conscious in the way we are, just 
> greatly diminished. My dogs are conscious beings I am pretty convinced, but 
> I think their mental landscape is smaller than that of a human. So 
> somewhere in that spectrum consciousness may emerge. Plants may have some 
> form of consciousness, and they do signal and appear to have some level of 
> awareness of their surroundings. 
>
> Consciousness is in a way a sort of bootstrap process where a being 
> generates an internal representation of themselves and themselves in this 
> world. It is then a sort of virtual process, and one where there being 
> encodes a representation of themselves within themselves. I think it has 
> some form of truncated self-reference such as Gödel's theorem. It might 
> serve to give an estimate on say Chaitin's halting probability so the being 
> is able to take a risk. This may be extended in part to all sort of complex 
> self-adaptive systems, in particular biological organisms. 
>
> LC
>
> On Sunday, February 10, 2019 at 5:34:01 PM UTC-6, Philip Thrift wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Two recent books:
>>
>> The First Minds: Caterpillars, Karyotes, and Consciousness
>> Arthur S. Reber
>> https://books.google.com/books/about/The_First_Minds.html?id=RBLEugEACAAJ
>>
>> Brain-Mind: From Neurons to Consciousness and Creativity
>> Paul Thagard
>> https://books.google.com/books/about/Brain_Mind.html?id=jJjHvAEACAAJ
>>
>> via
>> When Did Consciousness Begin?
>> Paul Thagard
>>
>> https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/hot-thought/201901/when-did-consciousness-begin
>>
>> Thagard's 10 hypotheses:
>>
>> 1. Consciousness has always existed, because God is conscious and eternal.
>>
>> 2. Consciousness began when the universe formed, around 13.7 billion 
>> years ago. 
>>
>> 3. Consciousness began with single-celled life, around 3.7 billion years 
>> ago (Reber). 
>>
>> 4. Consciousness began with multicellular plants, around 850 million 
>> years ago. 
>>
>> 5. Consciousness began when animals such as jellyfish got thousands of 
>> neurons, around 580 million years ago. 
>>
>> 6. Consciousness began when insects and fish developed larger brains with 
>> about a million neurons (honeybees) or 10 million neurons (zebrafish) 
>> around 560 million years ago. 
>>
>> 7. Consciousness began when animals such as birds and mammals developed 
>> much larger brains with hundreds of millions neurons, around 200 million 
>> years ago. [Thagard]
>>
>> 8. Consciousness began with humans, homo sapiens, around 200,000 years 
>> ago.
>>
>> 9. Consciousness began when human culture became advanced, around 3000 
>> years ago (Julian Jaynes).  
>>
>> 10. Consciousness does not exist, as it is just a scientific mistake 
>> (behaviorism} or a “user illusion” (Daniel Dennett). 
>>
>> - pt
>>
>>

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Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

[Philip Thrift]

As I've mentioned before, I think there is some relation between 
(proto)consciousness and (proto)language.

Spoken-language ability (hominid) could have appeared perhaps 60,000 years 
ago.
But written-language ability appears perhaps 6,000 years ago.

Writing (beyond speaking) ability is significant, I think.

- pt

On Monday, February 11, 2019 at 12:46:18 AM UTC-6, Russell Standish wrote:
>
> On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 04:24:40PM -0800, Brent Meeker wrote: 
> > 
> > 
> > On 2/10/2019 3:34 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: 
> > > 9. Consciousness began when human culture became advanced, around 3000 
> > > years ago (Julian Jaynes). 
>
> The date more usually given is 40,000 years bp. There was an explosion 
> of advanced culture that occurred at that time. Steven Pinker promotes 
> this idea ("the brain's big bang") IIRC. 
>
>
> -- 
>
>  
>
> Dr Russell StandishPhone 0425 253119 (mobile) 
> Principal, High Performance Coders 
> Visiting Senior Research Fellowhpc...@hpcoders.com.au 
>  
> Economics, Kingston University http://www.hpcoders.com.au 
>  
>
>

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Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

[Bruno Marchal]

> On 11 Feb 2019, at 00:34, Philip Thrift  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Two recent books:
> 
> The First Minds: Caterpillars, Karyotes, and Consciousness
> Arthur S. Reber
> https://books.google.com/books/about/The_First_Minds.html?id=RBLEugEACAAJ
> 
> Brain-Mind: From Neurons to Consciousness and Creativity
> Paul Thagard
> https://books.google.com/books/about/Brain_Mind.html?id=jJjHvAEACAAJ
> 
> via
> When Did Consciousness Begin?
> Paul Thagard
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/hot-thought/201901/when-did-consciousness-begin



I compare with the theology of the computationalist Universal Turing machine’s 
theology.

(So I do the blasphemy some times, and it is important that keep in mind the 
necessary interrogation point). I have not look at the answer of others, to 
test this later …).

Consciousness is just the “instinctive” or “automated” belief/anticipation 
concerning a possible reality.



> 
> Thagard's 10 hypotheses:
> 
> 1. Consciousness has always existed, because God is conscious and eternal.

Consciousness has always existed, because all universal machine/number are 
conscious and “eternal” (out of time).

Is God conscious? Open problem.





> 
> 2. Consciousness began when the universe formed, around 13.7 billion years 
> ago. 


This cannot be. But the event “13 billion years ago” and many variants occurs 
"all the time” (or all the number-of-step of all universal dovetailing) in the 
arithmetical reality.

Those are important events in our history, but the consciousness which does the 
history selection was there “before”.




> 
> 3. Consciousness began with single-celled life, around 3.7 billion years ago 
> (Reber). 


Not really, but the consciousness of the universal machine get a physical 
stable implementations, apparently relatively to us. We get many universal 
entities capable of interacting with a solid notion of resources. 




> 
> 4. Consciousness began with multicellular plants, around 850 million years 
> ago. 

In our histories, which “tautologically” are those semantical statifying the 
logic of the material modes of self-reference, which seems the case thanks to 
the quantum and Gödel (which enforces the distinction between []p and []p & <>t 
in the provable part of the machine in arithmetic.

Again, important events in our history, but consciousness was “there before”.




> 
> 5. Consciousness began when animals such as jellyfish got thousands of 
> neurons, around 580 million years ago. 


That’s about the time the soul of the machine falls, and they begin to 
hallucinate and believe in what they were conscious of, and thus get partially 
deluded. The universal machine get Löbian. Soon, they will even begin to 
believe in the axiom of infinity, and calculus, if not Lagrangian (grin).



> 
> 6. Consciousness began when insects and fish developed larger brains with 
> about a million neurons (honeybees) or 10 million neurons (zebrafish) around 
> 560 million years ago. 

It has been discovered that bees adds and multiplies little numbers, when they 
need, to get pollen from mathematical human teacher! But I still think that 
spider, especially the hunters, go much farer in their conception of reality as 
a video illustrates well here. At 0.44 she explores and get a surprise when 
“not seeing a spider where expected”, that occurs two times, and the second 
times she run away!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij4pdf49bxw



> 
> 7. Consciousness began when animals such as birds and mammals developed much 
> larger brains with hundreds of millions neurons, around 200 million years 
> ago. [Thagard]

Much larger brain enlarges the number of stupidity you can asserts, but of 
course, the catastrophes are limited until … the universal (natural) languages 
develops … 



> 
> 8. Consciousness began with humans, homo sapiens, around 200,000 years ago.

“Homo sapiens” cannot be asserted by the homo if he is really sapiens … 

Let us say that the peculiar human Intelligence, accompanied by human 
stupidity, begin to develop.

Intelligence and stupidity are two big friends, they never separate each other.




> 
> 9. Consciousness began when human culture became advanced, around 3000 years 
> ago (Julian Jaynes).  

Birth of the little ego. Birth of cruelty and the human suffering.



> 
> 10. Consciousness does not exist, as it is just a scientific mistake 
> (behaviorism} or a “user illusion” (Daniel Dennett). 

Negation of the first person indubitable: you don’t exist. Dennett is logically 
correct, as this follows from its ontological commitment in both primary matter 
and Mechanism. 

Of course, it is simpler to just omit such an ontological commitment.

Bruno




> 
> - pt
> 
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "Everything List" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
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> 

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

[Bruno Marchal]

> On 11 Feb 2019, at 01:24, Brent Meeker  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 2/10/2019 3:34 PM, Philip Thrift wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Two recent books:
>> 
>> The First Minds: Caterpillars, Karyotes, and Consciousness
>> Arthur S. Reber
>> https://books.google.com/books/about/The_First_Minds.html?id=RBLEugEACAAJ
>> 
>> Brain-Mind: From Neurons to Consciousness and Creativity
>> Paul Thagard
>> https://books.google.com/books/about/Brain_Mind.html?id=jJjHvAEACAAJ
>> 
>> via
>> When Did Consciousness Begin?
>> Paul Thagard
>> https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/hot-thought/201901/when-did-consciousness-begin
>> 
>> Thagard's 10 hypotheses:
>> 
>> 1. Consciousness has always existed, because God is conscious and eternal.
>> 
>> 2. Consciousness began when the universe formed, around 13.7 billion years 
>> ago.
>> 
>> 3. Consciousness began with single-celled life, around 3.7 billion years ago 
>> (Reber).
>> 
>> 4. Consciousness began with multicellular plants, around 850 million years 
>> ago.
>> 
>> 5. Consciousness began when animals such as jellyfish got thousands of 
>> neurons, around 580 million years ago.
>> 
>> 6. Consciousness began when insects and fish developed larger brains with 
>> about a million neurons (honeybees) or 10 million neurons (zebrafish) around 
>> 560 million years ago.
>> 
>> 7. Consciousness began when animals such as birds and mammals developed much 
>> larger brains with hundreds of millions neurons, around 200 million years 
>> ago. [Thagard]
>> 
>> 8. Consciousness began with humans, homo sapiens, around 200,000 years ago.
>> 
>> 9. Consciousness began when human culture became advanced, around 3000 years 
>> ago (Julian Jaynes).
>> 
>> 10. Consciousness does not exist, as it is just a scientific mistake 
>> (behaviorism} or a “user illusion” (Daniel Dennett).
> 
> A good exposition, but I wish he had taken some time to consider what is 
> consciousness.  I think he recognizes that there are different kinds and 
> levels of consciousness, but he doesn't make it clear what they are; how are 
> they related to memory and communication and planning.  It seems clear to me 
> that different kinds and levels of consciousness appeared at different times.


Are you OK that consciousness is, from the first person perspective, something 
which can be said to be

1) true
2) knowable
2) non provable
3) indubitable
4) non definable
5) anticipable

If yes, then all universal machine is confronted with this, although only 
Löbian machine can assert this, with precaution.

Consciousness is not much more than the first person belief in some reality. It 
accelerates the learning of distinguishing prey and predators for the 
self-moving self-eating types of creatures.

There are many possible experience of consciousness, and even sorts of state of 
consciousness, from highly dissociative, with or without amnesia, to many 
mundane state, like each of us at all instant of our normal waking life. It 
makes easy to get new beliefs and to abandon ancient beliefs. When Löbian, it 
generates “fear” (the local expectation of local unsatisfiabilty condition).

Bruno





> 
> Brent
> 
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Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

[smitra]

Consciousness began when "I" became conscious. But here I take into 
account that at the very beginning of "my" consciousness, "my" identity 
was almost undefined, so "I" refers to pretty much all conscious 
processes.


The notion of a personal identity is not a fundamental concept, 
consciousness exists independent of it. A subjective experience of a 
personal identity may be contained in a conscious experience, but this 
isn't necessary, and it may not correspond to a notion of identity based 
on physics.


When I was born and before I knew that I lived in the late 1900s, the 
consciousness I experienced corresponded to a very large ensemble of 
babies, some of them would find themselves up on Earth as it existed 
hundreds of years ago, some in the far future. Before I knew that 
dinosaurs had ever existed, I was also a creature very similar to us 
here on Earth on a planet where dinosaurs had never existed.


Saibal

On 11-02-2019 00:34, Philip Thrift wrote:

Two recent books:

The First Minds: Caterpillars, Karyotes, and Consciousness
Arthur S. Reber
https://books.google.com/books/about/The_First_Minds.html?id=RBLEugEACAAJ

Brain-Mind: From Neurons to Consciousness and Creativity
Paul Thagard
https://books.google.com/books/about/Brain_Mind.html?id=jJjHvAEACAAJ

via
When Did Consciousness Begin?
Paul Thagard
https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/hot-thought/201901/when-did-consciousness-begin

Thagard's 10 hypotheses:

1. Consciousness has always existed, because God is conscious and
eternal.

2. Consciousness began when the universe formed, around 13.7 billion
years ago.

3. Consciousness began with single-celled life, around 3.7 billion
years ago (Reber).

4. Consciousness began with multicellular plants, around 850 million
years ago.

5. Consciousness began when animals such as jellyfish got thousands of
neurons, around 580 million years ago.

6. Consciousness began when insects and fish developed larger brains
with about a million neurons (honeybees) or 10 million neurons
(zebrafish) around 560 million years ago.

7. Consciousness began when animals such as birds and mammals
developed much larger brains with hundreds of millions neurons, around
200 million years ago. [Thagard]

8. Consciousness began with humans, homo sapiens, around 200,000 years
ago.

9. Consciousness began when human culture became advanced, around 3000
years ago (Julian Jaynes).

10. Consciousness does not exist, as it is just a scientific mistake
(behaviorism} or a “user illusion” (Daniel Dennett).

- pt

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Re: Coherent states of a superposition

[agrayson2000]

On Monday, February 11, 2019 at 2:20:25 AM UTC, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, February 5, 2019 at 8:43:59 PM UTC, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Monday, February 4, 2019 at 8:56:57 AM UTC-7, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 3 Feb 2019, at 00:03, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Saturday, February 2, 2019 at 2:59:30 PM UTC-7, agrays...@gmail.com 
>>> wrote:



 On Saturday, February 2, 2019 at 1:40:29 AM UTC-7, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
>
> On 1 Feb 2019, at 21:29, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> On Friday, February 1, 2019 at 5:55:30 AM UTC-7, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 31 Jan 2019, at 21:10, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, January 31, 2019 at 6:47:12 AM UTC-7, Bruno Marchal 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 31 Jan 2019, at 01:28, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 2:38:58 PM UTC-7, agrays...@
>>> gmail.com wrote:



 On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 at 5:16:05 AM UTC-7, Bruno Marchal 
 wrote:
>
>
> On 30 Jan 2019, at 02:59, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, January 29, 2019 at 4:37:34 AM UTC-7, Bruno Marchal 
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 28 Jan 2019, at 22:50, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Friday, January 25, 2019 at 7:33:05 AM UTC-7, Bruno Marchal 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 24 Jan 2019, at 09:29, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sunday, January 20, 2019 at 11:54:43 AM UTC, agrays...@
>>> gmail.com wrote:



 On Sunday, January 20, 2019 at 9:56:17 AM UTC, Bruno Marchal 
 wrote:
>
>
> On 18 Jan 2019, at 18:50, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> On Friday, January 18, 2019 at 12:09:58 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal 
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 17 Jan 2019, at 14:48, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, January 17, 2019 at 12:36:07 PM UTC, Bruno 
>> Marchal wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 17 Jan 2019, at 09:33, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday, January 17, 2019 at 3:58:48 AM UTC, Brent wrote:



 On 1/16/2019 7:25 PM, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:



 On Monday, January 14, 2019 at 6:12:43 AM UTC, Brent wrote:
>
>
>
> On 1/13/2019 9:51 PM, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> This means, to me, that the arbitrary phase angles have 
> absolutely no effect on the resultant interference pattern 
> which is 
> observed. But isn't this what the phase angles are supposed 
> to effect? AG
>
>
> The screen pattern is determined by *relative phase 
> angles for the different paths that reach the same point on 
> the screen*.  
> The relative angles only depend on different path lengths, so 
> the overall 
> phase angle is irrelevant.
>
> Brent
>


 *Sure, except there areTWO forms of phase interference in 
 Wave Mechanics; the one you refer to above, and another 
 discussed in the 
 Stackexchange links I previously posted. In the latter case, 
 the wf is 
 expressed as a superposition, say of two states, where we 
 consider two 
 cases; a multiplicative complex phase shift is included prior 
 to the sum, 
 and different complex phase shifts multiplying each component, 
 all of the 
 form e^i (theta). Easy to show that interference exists in the 
 latter case, 
 but not the former. Now suppose we take the inner product of 
 the wf with 
 the ith eigenstate of the superposition, in order to calculate 
 the 
 probability of measuring the eigenvalue of the ith eigenstate, 
 applying one 
 of the postulates of QM, keeping in mind that each eigenstate 
 is multiplied 
 by a DIFFERENT complex 

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

[Bruno Marchal]

> On 11 Feb 2019, at 01:42, Lawrence Crowell  
> wrote:
> 
> I do not hold to the idea of panpsychism

Nor do I.



> and the existence of God is something that can be dismissed with no loss of 
> understanding of reality.


Of course, you mean the first Aristotelian God. The second is Primary Matter, 
or some substance. 

With Mechanism, none of them is available. But we keep a universal dreamer, and 
its possible awakening. The price? It get also very deeply very easily, and can 
almost itself in very long complex histories.





> It is harder to know about consciousness in living things. I hesitate in some 
> ways to think that prokaryotes are conscious in the way we are, just greatly 
> diminished.

The prokaryotes up to most some jellyfish and plants might live the simple pure 
innocent consciousness of Robinson Arithmetic.

With spider, cuttlefish and higher animals, the slope toward Löbianity seems to 
be there, but language and big neocortex accelerate this tremendously, and even 
that is nothing compared to the human made universal machine (seen in 
geological time …).









> My dogs are conscious beings I am pretty convinced, but I think their mental 
> landscape is smaller than that of a human.

I am not sure of that. Dogs are a bit idolaters toward the boss or the master, 
but they have much less prejudices than the human, and as such there are more 
open minded. Now, it is hard to motivate them for digging more on the 
reflexion, but some dogs are more wise than many humans. Our consciousness are 
hard to compare. Some dogs loves cannabis, also, and I am ready to bet they 
make a very similar experience than the humans. They have just not a brain to 
articulate their feeling and to exploit their potential “Löbianity”, and maybe 
they are lucky for that, I don’t know.




> So somewhere in that spectrum consciousness may emerge. Plants may have some 
> form of consciousness, and they do signal and appear to have some level of 
> awareness of their surroundings. 

Yes, the trees seem to communicate in the forest. There is also a problem of 
time scaling. I suspect some plants to be conscious but with a different time 
scale. I think the opposite for little animals (a day for a butterfly might 
seems much longer from the first person perspective of an insect).



> 
> Consciousness is in a way a sort of bootstrap process where a being generates 
> an internal representation of themselves and themselves in this world.

Yes. It is basically what the second recursion theorem explains (and that 
happens “all the time” in the arithmetical reality.




> It is then a sort of virtual process, and one where there being encodes a 
> representation of themselves within themselves. I think it has some form of 
> truncated self-reference such as Gödel's theorem.


Yes. Consciousness is very near the notion of consistency. It entails the 
impossibility of being proved, and it generates the sense, as consistency is 
basically equivalent with “being satisfied (made true) in some reality”. But 
consciousness is not equivalent with consistency, except in God eyes. The 
subtleties of incompleteness provides the tools to avoid the “theological 
traps”, by keeping the difference between G and G* into account, and same for 
the other modes.




> It might serve to give an estimate on say Chaitin's halting probability so 
> the being is able to take a risk.


Chatin’s probability is too much rough for this, and is probably more related 
to the big-bang and to cosmology than to consciousness. Consciousness needs 
only Post Number (the halting Oracle, offered by the first person 
indeterminacy). Chaitin’s number is the ultra-compressed version of Post 
numbers 0,abcd… where each a, b … is 0 or 1 according to phi_i converges or 
not, in an enumeration of the zero-art programs of some Turing universal 
“language”.





> This may be extended in part to all sort of complex self-adaptive systems, in 
> particular biological organisms. 

With Post number, no doubt. Oblgatory so for classical indexical 
computationalism.

Bruno




> 
> LC
> 
> On Sunday, February 10, 2019 at 5:34:01 PM UTC-6, Philip Thrift wrote:
> 
> 
> Two recent books:
> 
> The First Minds: Caterpillars, Karyotes, and Consciousness
> Arthur S. Reber
> https://books.google.com/books/about/The_First_Minds.html?id=RBLEugEACAAJ 
> 
> 
> Brain-Mind: From Neurons to Consciousness and Creativity
> Paul Thagard
> https://books.google.com/books/about/Brain_Mind.html?id=jJjHvAEACAAJ 
> 
> 
> via
> When Did Consciousness Begin?
> Paul Thagard
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/hot-thought/201901/when-did-consciousness-begin
>  
> 
> 
> Thagard's 10 hypotheses:
> 
> 1. Consciousness has always existed, because God is 

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

[Bruno Marchal]

> On 11 Feb 2019, at 08:05, Brent Meeker  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 2/10/2019 10:47 PM, Russell Standish wrote:
>> On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 04:24:40PM -0800, Brent Meeker wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 2/10/2019 3:34 PM, Philip Thrift wrote:
 9. Consciousness began when human culture became advanced, around 3000
 years ago (Julian Jaynes).
>> The date more usually given is 40,000 years bp. There was an explosion
>> of advanced culture that occurred at that time. Steven Pinker promotes
>> this idea ("the brain's big bang") IIRC.
>> 
>> 
> As I recall, Jaynes put it at the beginning of trade between tribes.  Because 
> when you're bargaining you have to keep your thoughts to yourself and learn 
> to lie.

Jayne idea might make sense for the human self-consciousness, but consciousness 
per se is more large and primitive. 

Now, even this I doubt a little bit. Self-consciousness seems to me to be 
needed to begin the trades, but of course, it is debatable.

Bruno



> 
> Brent
> 
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Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

[Bruno Marchal]

> On 11 Feb 2019, at 09:42, Philip Thrift  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Interest in the psychical (experience, consciousness) aspect in all 
> biological levels has sort of taken off recently, it seems.
> 
> cf.
> 
> Cosmopsychism, Micropsychism, and the Grounding Relation 
> 
> Philip Goff 
> 
> 
> Language is not experience/consciousness of course, but I think there is some 
> sort of connection between the existence of protolanguages (of lower level 
> animals) and protoconsciousnesses.


The presence of a language isa symptom of Turing universality, or simpler. I 
tend to believe in bacteria’s consciousness only because of molecular genetics, 
which shows them to be small natural computer. We can program them, actually. 
But that consciousness is in arithmetic, and simple universal machine are only 
their differentiating starting point, in their histories.

Now, an eukaryotic cell seems to be a descendent of small colony of bacteria 
(and virus possibly), and a pluricellualr is a a colony of clone of bacteria, + 
bacteria.

Bacteria still rules life on this planet, and that is for long!

Bruno




> 
> 
> - pt
> 
> 
> 
> On Sunday, February 10, 2019 at 6:42:20 PM UTC-6, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
> I do not hold to the idea of panpsychism and the existence of God is 
> something that can be dismissed with no loss of understanding of reality. It 
> is harder to know about consciousness in living things. I hesitate in some 
> ways to think that prokaryotes are conscious in the way we are, just greatly 
> diminished. My dogs are conscious beings I am pretty convinced, but I think 
> their mental landscape is smaller than that of a human. So somewhere in that 
> spectrum consciousness may emerge. Plants may have some form of 
> consciousness, and they do signal and appear to have some level of awareness 
> of their surroundings. 
> 
> Consciousness is in a way a sort of bootstrap process where a being generates 
> an internal representation of themselves and themselves in this world. It is 
> then a sort of virtual process, and one where there being encodes a 
> representation of themselves within themselves. I think it has some form of 
> truncated self-reference such as Gödel's theorem. It might serve to give an 
> estimate on say Chaitin's halting probability so the being is able to take a 
> risk. This may be extended in part to all sort of complex self-adaptive 
> systems, in particular biological organisms. 
> 
> LC
> 
> On Sunday, February 10, 2019 at 5:34:01 PM UTC-6, Philip Thrift wrote:
> 
> 
> Two recent books:
> 
> The First Minds: Caterpillars, Karyotes, and Consciousness
> Arthur S. Reber
> https://books.google.com/books/about/The_First_Minds.html?id=RBLEugEACAAJ 
> 
> 
> Brain-Mind: From Neurons to Consciousness and Creativity
> Paul Thagard
> https://books.google.com/books/about/Brain_Mind.html?id=jJjHvAEACAAJ 
> 
> 
> via
> When Did Consciousness Begin?
> Paul Thagard
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/hot-thought/201901/when-did-consciousness-begin
>  
> 
> 
> Thagard's 10 hypotheses:
> 
> 1. Consciousness has always existed, because God is conscious and eternal.
> 
> 2. Consciousness began when the universe formed, around 13.7 billion years 
> ago. 
> 
> 3. Consciousness began with single-celled life, around 3.7 billion years ago 
> (Reber). 
> 
> 4. Consciousness began with multicellular plants, around 850 million years 
> ago. 
> 
> 5. Consciousness began when animals such as jellyfish got thousands of 
> neurons, around 580 million years ago. 
> 
> 6. Consciousness began when insects and fish developed larger brains with 
> about a million neurons (honeybees) or 10 million neurons (zebrafish) around 
> 560 million years ago. 
> 
> 7. Consciousness began when animals such as birds and mammals developed much 
> larger brains with hundreds of millions neurons, around 200 million years 
> ago. [Thagard]
> 
> 8. Consciousness began with humans, homo sapiens, around 200,000 years ago.
> 
> 9. Consciousness began when human culture became advanced, around 3000 years 
> ago (Julian Jaynes).  
> 
> 10. Consciousness does not exist, as it is just a scientific mistake 
> (behaviorism} or a “user illusion” (Daniel Dennett). 
> 
> - pt
> 
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
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> 

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

[Bruno Marchal]

> On 11 Feb 2019, at 12:38, smitra  wrote:
> 
> Consciousness began when "I" became conscious. But here I take into account 
> that at the very beginning of "my" consciousness, "my" identity was almost 
> undefined, so "I" refers to pretty much all conscious processes.
> 
> The notion of a personal identity is not a fundamental concept, consciousness 
> exists independent of it. A subjective experience of a personal identity may 
> be contained in a conscious experience, but this isn't necessary, and it may 
> not correspond to a notion of identity based on physics.

OK.



> 
> When I was born and before I knew that I lived in the late 1900s, the 
> consciousness I experienced corresponded to a very large ensemble of babies, 
> some of them would find themselves up on Earth as it existed hundreds of 
> years ago, some in the far future. Before I knew that dinosaurs had ever 
> existed, I was also a creature very similar to us here on Earth on a planet 
> where dinosaurs had never existed.


Somehow.

In the universe where the dinosaurs did never existed, you are still in the 
ocean! (I am joking, as this has no meaning at all, if you think twice).

Yes personal identity is a bit of an illusion, and is independent of 
consciousness. But that illusion is hard to avoid once having a body, and is 
even needed to play the game of life, although it became an handicap and a 
source of suffering when taken too much seriously. It is difficult. The little 
ego can hide the higher self.

Bruno





> 
> Saibal
> 
> On 11-02-2019 00:34, Philip Thrift wrote:
>> Two recent books:
>> The First Minds: Caterpillars, Karyotes, and Consciousness
>> Arthur S. Reber
>> https://books.google.com/books/about/The_First_Minds.html?id=RBLEugEACAAJ
>> Brain-Mind: From Neurons to Consciousness and Creativity
>> Paul Thagard
>> https://books.google.com/books/about/Brain_Mind.html?id=jJjHvAEACAAJ
>> via
>> When Did Consciousness Begin?
>> Paul Thagard
>> https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/hot-thought/201901/when-did-consciousness-begin
>> Thagard's 10 hypotheses:
>> 1. Consciousness has always existed, because God is conscious and
>> eternal.
>> 2. Consciousness began when the universe formed, around 13.7 billion
>> years ago.
>> 3. Consciousness began with single-celled life, around 3.7 billion
>> years ago (Reber).
>> 4. Consciousness began with multicellular plants, around 850 million
>> years ago.
>> 5. Consciousness began when animals such as jellyfish got thousands of
>> neurons, around 580 million years ago.
>> 6. Consciousness began when insects and fish developed larger brains
>> with about a million neurons (honeybees) or 10 million neurons
>> (zebrafish) around 560 million years ago.
>> 7. Consciousness began when animals such as birds and mammals
>> developed much larger brains with hundreds of millions neurons, around
>> 200 million years ago. [Thagard]
>> 8. Consciousness began with humans, homo sapiens, around 200,000 years
>> ago.
>> 9. Consciousness began when human culture became advanced, around 3000
>> years ago (Julian Jaynes).
>> 10. Consciousness does not exist, as it is just a scientific mistake
>> (behaviorism} or a “user illusion” (Daniel Dennett).
>> - pt
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> Groups "Everything List" group.
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