Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-29 Thread russell standish
On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 01:01:49PM -0500, Jason Resch wrote: On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 3:52 PM, Kelly harmon...@gmail.com wrote: I don't say that they are rare, I say they don't make any sense.  A big difference. I say that every possible event is perceived to happen, and so nothing

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-29 Thread russell standish
On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 08:19:51PM -0700, Kelly wrote: On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 9:00 PM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: In fact I used that same argument with Russell Standish when he said that ants aren't conscious because if they were then we should expect to be

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-29 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
2009/4/29 John Mikes jami...@gmail.com: The Financial Crisis Explained Heidi is the proprietor of a bar in Berlin . In order to increase sales, she decides to allow her loyal customers - most of whom are unemployed alcoholics - to drink now but pay later. She keeps track of the drinks

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-29 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
2009/4/29 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that the information in most physical processes, but not consciousness, can be discrete? I would have said just the opposite: that even if it turns out that physics is continuous and time is real, it

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-29 Thread Quentin Anciaux
Hi, 2009/4/29 Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com: 2009/4/29 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that the information in most physical processes, but not consciousness, can be discrete? I would have said just the opposite: that even if it

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-29 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
2009/4/29 Jesse Mazer laserma...@hotmail.com: Kelly wrote: Not if information exists platonically. So the question is, what does it mean for a physical system to represent a certain piece of information? With the correct one-time pad, any desired information can be extracted from any

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-29 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
2009/4/29 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com: In Bruno's Washington/Moscow thought experiment that information isn't in your consciousness, although it's available via third persons. My view of the experiment is that you would lose a bit of consciousness, that you can't slice consciousness

RE: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-29 Thread Jesse Mazer
From: stath...@gmail.com Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 23:24:35 +1000 Subject: Re: Consciousness is information? To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 2009/4/29 Jesse Mazer laserma...@hotmail.com: Kelly wrote: Not if information exists platonically. So the question is, what does it mean

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-29 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/4/29 Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com: 2009/4/29 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com: In Bruno's Washington/Moscow thought experiment that information isn't in your consciousness, although it's available via third persons. My view of the experiment is that you would lose a bit of

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-29 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
2009/4/29 Jesse Mazer laserma...@hotmail.com: And in the possibility space of weird alien computers it seems to me that there will always be a computer isomorphic with the vibration of atoms in a given rock. What do you mean by weird alien computers? If we had a way of defining the notion

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-29 Thread Jason Resch
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 1:05 AM, russell standish li...@hpcoders.com.au wrote: What you are talking about is what I call the Occam catastrophe in my book. The resolution of the paradox has to be that the random/white-noise filled OMs are in fact unable to be observed. In order for the

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-29 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 29 Apr 2009, at 00:25, Jesse Mazer wrote: Kelly wrote: Not if information exists platonically. So the question is, what does it mean for a physical system to represent a certain piece of information? With the correct one-time pad, any desired information can be extracted

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-29 Thread Johnathan Corgan
On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 10:28 -0500, Jason Resch wrote: It would seem the way the brain is organized it doesn't accept perception of pure randomness (at least not for long, I have not yet tried the experiment myself). If it can't find patterns from the senses it looks like it gives up and

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-29 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/4/29 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that the information in most physical processes, but not consciousness, can be discrete? I would have said just the opposite: that even if it turns out that physics is

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-29 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Apr 2009, at 22:14, Kelly wrote: On Apr 27, 12:23 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: So you have indeed the necessity to abandon comp to maintain your form of immaterialist platonism, but then you lose the tool for questioning nature. It almost look like choosing a

RE: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-29 Thread Jesse Mazer
Bruno wrote: On 29 Apr 2009, at 00:25, Jesse Mazer wrote: and I think it's also the idea behind Maudlin's Olympia thought experiment as well. Maudlin's Olympia, or the Movie Graph Argument are completely different. Those are arguments showing that computationalism is incompatible with the

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-29 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/4/29 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com: In Bruno's Washington/Moscow thought experiment that information isn't in your consciousness, although it's available via third persons. My view of the experiment is that you would lose a bit of consciousness, that

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-29 Thread Bruno Marchal
Maudlin's point is that the causal structure has no physical role, so if you maintain the association of consciousness with the causal, actually computational structure, you have to abandon the physical supervenience. Or you reintroduce some magic, like if neurons have some knowledge of

Re: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-29 Thread Brent Meeker
Jason Resch wrote: On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 1:05 AM, russell standish li...@hpcoders.com.au wrote: What you are talking about is what I call the Occam catastrophe in my book. The resolution of the paradox has to be that the random/white-noise filled OMs are in fact unable to be observed.

RE: Consciousness is information?

2009-04-29 Thread Jesse Mazer
From: marc...@ulb.ac.be To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Consciousness is information? Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 22:19:56 +0200 Maudlin's point is that the causal structure has no physical role But I'm not convinced that the basic Olympia machine he describes doesn't already