Re: Consciousness is information?
Hi Torgny, I come from Stockholm, Sweden. I was constructed by my parents. In reality I think that all humans are zombies, but because I am a polite person, I do not tell the other zombies that they are zombies. I do not want to hurt the other zombies by telling them the truth. I guess you know that Sweden is the main country of Snus, that delicious oral tobacco product. Now, if there is one thing easy to imitate, for a zombie, is the discrete enjoyment of snus. But why would ever a zombie discretely fake for itself the pleasure of consuming snus. I can understand a young zombie fakes smoking cigarette, with the goal of faking faking being an adult, but why would an adult zombie ever fake, alone, at home, snusing some tobacco? Here I use the belgo-african Makla Ifrikia, cheaper and stronger. I t helped me to quit smoking (tobacco). I enjoy it, and although I cannot prove it to you, I don't fake the enjoyment . Nobody can even see that pure first person pleasure. Very useful for consuming tobacco in public place, where it is forbidden almost everywhere nowadays. Surely you are joking, mister zombie, Best, Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Consciousness is information?
Hi John, On 11 May 2009, at 22:49, John Mikes wrote: who was that French poet who made puns after death? ... A french poet said, after he died (!) : friends, pretend only to cry because poet pretends only to dye. (Faites semblant de pleurer mes amis puisque les poètes font semblant de mourrir). It is Jean Cocteau. In Le Testament d'Orphée. A movie, made by Jean Cocteau, where he plays the role of the dying poet. I am not entirely sure of the total correctness of the quote. It could be Faites semblant de pleurer mes amis puisque les poètes ne font que semblant d'être mort. Best, Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Consciousness is information?
Bruno Marchal skrev: On 08 May 2009, at 19:15, Torgny Tholerus wrote: Bruno Marchal skrev: On 07 May 2009, at 18:29, Torgny Tholerus wrote: Yes it is right. There is no infinity of natural numbers. But the natural numbers are UNLIMITED, you can construct as many natural numbers as you want. But how many numbers you construct, the number of numbers will always be finite. You can never construct an infinite number of natural numbers. This is no more ultrafinitism. Just the usal finitism or intuitionism. It seems I recall you have had a stronger view on this point. Ontologically I am neutral on this question. With comp I don't need any actual infinity in the third person ontology. Infinities are not avoidable from inside, at least when the inside view begins some self-reflexion studies. I was an ultrafinitist before, but I have changed my mind. Excellent. The ability of changing its mind is a wonderful gift. It was the Mathematical Universe that made me change my mind: Earlier I was convinced that the number of time steps in the universe was explicitely finite, that time goes in a circle. But the Mathematical Universe says that all mathematically possible universes exists. And it is possible to construct an EXPANDING universe, where you have a simple rule stating that the status of a space-time point is a combination of the statuses of the neighboring space-time points in the previous time point. In this universe there will never happen that the same space will be repeated at a later time, because the space consists of more space points at the later time. So in that case the universe is UNLIMITED, it will never stop, but continue for ever... -- Torgny Tholerus --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: 3-PoV from 1 PoV?
Hi Bruno, Interleaving some comments. - Original Message - From: Bruno Marchal To: everything-list@googlegroups.com ; Stephen Paul King Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 1:51 PM Subject: Re: 3-PoV from 1 PoV? On 08 May 2009, at 17:49, Stephen Paul King wrote: I came upon the idea after considering how is it that the notion of an objective reality when we know for a fact that all of our knowledge does not come from any kind of direct contact with an objective reality, at best it is infered. Yes. Even at the deepest level. Science transforms knowledge into belief by making us aware of the hypothetical nature of our mental construction. I would say that science is the condition of genuine faith or bets. [spk] Falsifiable bets. ;) Leibniz' Monadology can be considered as a way to think of this idea where each monad represents a 1-PoV. Difficult to make sense. Leibniz is a complex and variable author. I have read the Monadology and consult some expert of Leibniz, but it remains hard to figure out how it works. [spk] Leibniz' Monadology is difficult to comprehend because he starts off with an inversion of the usual way of thinking about the world. By assuming that the observer's point of view is the primitive, it follows that the notions of space and time are secondary, orderings, and not some independent substance or container. A synchronization of many such 1PoV, given some simple consistensy requirements, would in the large number limit lead to a notion of a common world of experience. Don't you need some common world of experience to have a notion of synchronization? [spk] No, not if all of the structure that one might attribute to a commn world of experience is already within the notion of a monad. A Monad, considered in isolation, is exactly like an infinite quantum mechanical system. It has no definite set of particular properties, it has *all properties* as possibilities. What I am considering is to replace Leibniz' notion of a pre-ordained harmony, his version of a a priori existing measure, I propose a notion of local ongoing process. A generalized notion of information processing or computation, for example. We see this idea expressed by David Deutsch in his book, The Fabric of Reality: ...think of all of our knowledge-generating processes, , and indeed the entire evolving biosphere as well, as being a gigantic computation. The whole thing is executiong a self-motivated, self-generating computer program. ... it is a virtual-reality program in the process of rendering, with ever increasing accuracy, the whole of existence. pg. 317-318 When we consider an infinity of Monads, each, unless it is identical to some other, is at least infinitesimably different. All of the aspects of a collections of Monads that are identical collapse into a single state, a notion of a background emerges from this. This idea is not different from the notion of a collective unconsciousness that some thinkers like Karl Jung have proposed. This leave us with finite distinctions between monads. Finite distictions leads us to notions of distinguishing finite processes, etc. The notion of synchronization is a figure of speach, a stand in, for that is called decoherence in QM theory. By seeing that the phase relations of many small QM systems tend to become entangled and no longed localizable, we get the notion of a classical finite world. This is a bottom up explanation. BTW: Notions, such as finitism, might be explained by intensionally neglecting any continuance of thought that takes one to the conclusion that infinities might actually exist! The 3PoV would follow from a form of inversion or reflection of a 1PoV. For example, we form thoughts of or fellow humans from our own experiences of ourselves. BTW: it seems to me that consciousness, at least, requires some form of dynamic self- modeling process. This implies that there is no such a thing as a static consciousness. I can agree. And you know the way I proceed. I start from elementary arithmetic, the 3-elementary ontology. If only because 99,9% of the humans agree on it, and it is already Turing universal and contains the whole universal deployment. The epistemology is given by adding some induction schema to the machine in there. It is illustrated by the going from Robinson arithmetic to Peano Arithmetic (emulated by Robinson arithmetic). It is enough to generate all finite piece of histories, and we can get the many 1-pov by the Theaetetical variant of the logic of provability/consistency ... So, if you agree that all dynamics are contained in the block-arithmetical truth, consciousness is indeed related to internal information flux, and so we can say there is no static consciousness, in that sense. But here we mix the 3-description with the 1-description, and from this we cannot
Re: Consciousness is information?
Bruno, merci pour le nom Jean Cocteau. J'ai voulu montrer que je semble vivant. I told my young bride of 61 years (originally economist, but follows all the plaisantries I speculate on) about the assumptions you guys speculate on and connect to assumptions of assumptions, Torgny the zombie, Stephen Leibnitz' Monads, you numbers, others Q-immortality/suicide and partial teleportation at the level of highest science - and she asked - (because she believes in her love that I am into all that, - understanding): What do you guys hope to achieve by all this speculation? I replied: it's getting late, let's go to sleep. Well??? (I believe this is the most meaningful word in English) John M On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 11:22 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Hi John, On 11 May 2009, at 22:49, John Mikes wrote: who was that French poet who made puns after death? ... A french poet said, after he died (!) : friends, pretend only to cry because poet pretends only to dye. (Faites semblant de pleurer mes amis puisque les poètes font semblant de mourrir). It is Jean Cocteau. In Le Testament d'Orphée. A movie, made by Jean Cocteau, where he plays the role of the dying poet. I am not entirely sure of the total correctness of the quote. It could be Faites semblant de pleurer mes amis puisque les poètes ne font que semblant d'être mort. Best, Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Victor Korotkikh
Hi Bruno, Have you come across Victor Korotkikh's stuff? He's got a recent article out in Complexity: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/121426751/abstract?CRETRY=1SRETRY=0 (Complexity, 14, 40-46) It basically explores the organisational properties of the integers, prime numbers etc. Which is kind of interesting in a pure mathematical way, but he then uses this to model real complex systems, emergent properties and so on. If you can't get the above paper, here is a much earlier one that is not behind a paywall: http://www.complexity.org.au/ci/vol03/victor2/ I've met him a few times over the years - he's based in Townsville, about 2000km north of here. He's an intense Russian who's presentation is almost impenetrable - but there are people I respect who consider him a genius. It struck me this morning how similar in many ways his programme is to yours. I suppose you both share a strong neo-platonic viewpoint for starters. Cheers -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Mathematics UNSW SYDNEY 2052 hpco...@hpcoders.com.au Australiahttp://www.hpcoders.com.au --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Consciousness is information?
John, Great question I am glad you asked it. I think I was driven to this list because of big questions, especially those which most people seem to believe are unanswerable. Questions such as: Where did this universe come from? Why are we here and why am I me? Is there a God? What is responsible for consciousness? What is time? Is there life after death? Etc. After much reading and thought I am now mostly satisfied with the answers I have arrived at, and keeping up with this list and the issues people raise on various topics helps me to keep updating my models of reality to hopefully become more correct. I think it is good mental exercise to ponder the questions people on this list raise, and despite all the disagreement, chains of assumptions, and inability to test many of the conjectures I think this list is slowly making progress toward truth. Jason On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 3:42 PM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Bruno, merci pour le nom Jean Cocteau. J'ai voulu montrer que je semble vivant. I told my young bride of 61 years (originally economist, but follows all the plaisantries I speculate on) about the assumptions you guys speculate on and connect to assumptions of assumptions, Torgny the zombie, Stephen Leibnitz' Monads, you numbers, others Q-immortality/suicide and partial teleportation at the level of highest science - and she asked - (because she believes in her love that I am into all that, - understanding): What do you guys hope to achieve by all this speculation? I replied: it's getting late, let's go to sleep. Well??? (I believe this is the most meaningful word in English) John M On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 11:22 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Hi John, On 11 May 2009, at 22:49, John Mikes wrote: who was that French poet who made puns after death? ... A french poet said, after he died (!) : friends, pretend only to cry because poet pretends only to dye. (Faites semblant de pleurer mes amis puisque les poètes font semblant de mourrir). It is Jean Cocteau. In Le Testament d'Orphée. A movie, made by Jean Cocteau, where he plays the role of the dying poet. I am not entirely sure of the total correctness of the quote. It could be Faites semblant de pleurer mes amis puisque les poètes ne font que semblant d'être mort. Best, Bruno http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
