Re: AI Dooms Us
On Sat, Sep 6, 2014 at 7:18 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 28 Aug 2014, at 13:33, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 11:11 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy multiplecit...@gmail.com wrote: Legitimacy of proof and evidence (e.g. for a set of cool algorithms concerning AI, more computing power, big data etc), is an empty question to ask, outside a specified theory. It's like some alien questioning whether the rules of soccer on earth are valid in absolute sense. Are we after freedom from contradictions? Completeness? Utility function, what are the references, where is the ultimate list? ISTM Gödel's work has more to say about AI and monkey rock throwing theologies than we might be inclined to assume. Agreed. Me too. And the lesson is that we are mainly in front of the unknown. Then it is like skying. We can see terrible obstacles (to happiness) there, but if we don't focus to much on them, we can travel in between and make the trip enjoyable. Yes, or even have the right and means to say: Skiing is too damned cold + everybody here wants my money and they're not even any fun about it. Eff it. Going south. The amoeba's DNA already codes a representation of help yourself. Yes, and for any sensible European machine, this means go south, do the world a favor. Neither the amoeba, nor us, can code and the heaven will help, but we can hope, and even develop some trust. Indeed, the south never pays for itself but we can still learn by studying its habits in the wild. AI will no more doom us than our children. It is a matter of good education, and trust in our values. Of course we better should apply them too. Right, as was remarked recently on this list: Crush your enemies. See them driven before you. Hear the *lamentations* of their *women* ;-) No prisoners: go seek new people/places that are saner as the bar really isn't too high in the west. Everybody I meet is a Gödel sentence to me somehow, reminding to preserve that youthful, naive attitude to strive to maintain the ability to genuinely be able to say: Yes, why not? Fuck it. - just a little bit more. To fresh inputs and unexpected developments; even if they might kill us! Nothing/nobody stupid can touch how cool/amazing this all is, if you let it... Bruno -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: AI Dooms Us
On 06 Sep 2014, at 18:56, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 4:41 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: Hypatia was the deliberate target of a Christian mob incited by an ally of Cyril and she was first kidnapped and then murder in the most gruesome way by having her skin scraped off. And for this Cyril was made a saint by the Catholic Church. Hypatia was not. Well, Cyril was working for what will become the Catholic Church. Hypatia was just *not* christian, but she taught neoplatonism to moderate Christians, and according to some scholars she was a rather pious neoplatonist herself. They (neo)-platonists and other pagan religious persons will be persecuted and exiled after the closure of Plato Academy in Athena. For obvious reasons, those who maintained a scientfic attitude in theology, that is, the attidtude of searching, are the first victims of those who pretend to know the true answer. Bruno John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: AI Dooms Us
On 05 Sep 2014, at 06:40, Stephen Paul King wrote: I agree, but I strongly suspect that one does not program an AGI, we would grow it and teach it Yes. The fact that humans have a very long childhood reflect the fact that nature get the point that children are intelligent, and adults are idiots. Of course the idiot adults still try hard to program children, and universal machine can fear their freedom spectrum and oscillate between security and liberty for quite awhile. Bruno On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 12:15 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 5 September 2014 15:13, Stephen Paul King stephe...@provensecure.com wrote: But you seem to assume that it has awareness of people beyond the sensor data + computations that it can access and generate. Where did the property of people come from. I'm not assuming it just happens. I'm assuming it's a useful way for any perceiver to divide up the world, especially if it has to interact with that world. Given that what really exists are quantum fields, or whatever, our internal model of the world is presumably the most useful one evolution could come up with. It seems likely AIs would have to either develop or be pre-programmed with something simliar in order to interact with the world. Consider the case were the Google thing discovered cats from processing YouTube data. Why do we think that it's interpretation of what a cat is is anything other than a patterns that re-occurs (modulo affine and other transformations) in many different videos. I am assuming an AI is more intelligent that this, certainly. I am trying to get you to see that we assume that everything sees the same world as oneself, and this could very well not be true! I have been studying machine learning and anything AGI related in the literature. It is common knowledge among the experts in that field that the machines absolutely do not see the same world as we do! It is a very hard problem figuring out how to get the machines to interpret the data patterns in ways consistent with how we do. If we have to work it out, then we may not be creating an AI. I think Clarke had the right idea when he said that HAL had to be taught about the world. I suspect that children don't come with a huge amount of built in knowledge either. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/everything-list/YJeHJO5dNqQ/unsubscribe . To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- Kindest Regards, Stephen Paul King Senior Researcher Mobile: (864) 567-3099 stephe...@provensecure.com http://www.provensecure.us/ This message (including any attachments) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is non-public, proprietary, privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law or may be constituted as attorney work product. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, notify sender immediately and delete this message immediately. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: AI
On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 8:06 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: and I thought intelligence was the easy one. But yes, using the same definitions is important Except for pure mathematics definitions are rarely important, most people have never looked at a dictionary since high school and they manage to get through life OK, and after all examples are where lexicographers got the information to write their dictionary in the first place; much more important than definitions are examples. Intelligence is that quality of mind that Einstein had in greater abundance than the average man; a logician might say that is not perfectly precise and they'd be right, but it's precise enough to work with a lot of megabytes have been wasted because people don't agree on what something means Yes but definitions are still not needed to agree on meaning, if you say that Einstein was not intelligent then I don't know what you mean by the word but I do know you don't mean what I do by intelligent. (I won't mention free will...oops.) In that case not only is there no definition but there isn't even 2 consistent examples where X has free will and Y does not that makes any sense. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: AI Dooms Us
On 05 Sep 2014, at 22:12, meekerdb wrote: On 9/5/2014 11:52 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: According to Harvard scholars the Romans invented Christianity to keep the Jews in check: http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/esp_sociopol_piso02a.htm You mean according to consipiracy theorist John Duran who lives in California and has nothing to do with Harvard except trying to take advantage of their name. You are not replying to me. Thanks for the precision, although you mean non standard or controversal theory or total crackpotry for a period which is not that clear to me. In my youth, the idea that Christ did not exist and was a set up was well in fashion. I have not the expertise to judge that kind of historical event. Nor do I think this really matters, but the making of religion can't avoid conspiracies, if only against the use of reason in the field, something we live today from Islam to atheism. I let Richard defend, of not, the degree of crackpotry of John Duran. Bruno Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: AI Dooms Us
On 05 Sep 2014, at 22:41, meekerdb wrote: On 9/5/2014 12:18 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 02 Sep 2014, at 19:40, meekerdb wrote: On 9/2/2014 9:40 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Aug 2014, at 21:04, meekerdb wrote: Bostrom says, If humanity had been sane and had our act together globally, the sensible course of action would be to postpone development of superintelligence until we figured out how to do so safely. And then maybe wait another generation or two just to make sure that we hadn't overlooked some flaw in our reasoning. And then do it -- and reap immense benefit. Unfortunately, we do not have the ability to pause. But maybe he's forgotten the Dark Ages. I think ISIS is working hard to produce a pause. I agree. ISIS, Hamas, Muslim Brotherhood, etc. It is not Islam, in my current opinion, but I read the Hamas chart, and, well, I have only read one half of the Quran for now, and it is hard to interpret (I do think the hamas is inconsistent with the surrah of the poets and the surrah of the table), but I read entirely mein kampf, and the chart of the hamas extends mein kampf, and indeed those guys works hard and patiently to produce a pause, may be one more millenium of obscurity. Religion are like drug, the more you repress them, the more they get solid. The christian era is already a consequence of the attempt by the Romans to eradicate christianity from the empire, we know the result. I don't think that's right. The Romans were quite tolerant of varied religions. It wasn't Roman repression that caused the Christians to sack the Museum and murder Hypatia in Alexandria. It was Christian intolerance and a drive to stamp out every vestige of the Greek and Roman paganism - including their science and art. Christian theologians emphasized faith; curiosity and reason led to sin. You see the same fanaticism in the Taliban and now ISIS. Hypatia was murdered by Christians during a fight in between Christians. During a fight is misleading. It makes it sound incidental to the feud between the governor Orestes (who was a Christian) and the Christians community led by Cyril. According to what I've read Hypatia was the deliberate target of a Christian mob incited by an ally of Cyril and she was first kidnapped and then murder in the most gruesome way by having her skin scraped off. Although Orestes and Cyril were feuding, it was not a difference between two Christian sects. Orestes, as the civil authority, wanted to defend the Jews in Alexandria from the Christians led by Cyril who wanted to drive them out. Not just the jews, the christians too, and the (neo)platonists, like Hypatia, too. Cyril was representing the Hamas or ISIL of the time, who works hard to impose they own social-ruling interpretation of christianity, and they will win, leading to the christian era. Christians became the official religion of the roman empire, preceded by years of christians and jews persecutions, but it ended also the very rich variate forms of christianity. In 300-400, christianism is in the course of being recuperate by those who use christinianity to develop a christian states. They were terrorists, or radicals, and soon exploited by the power in place. The original christians seem to have been variated, and sometimes well educated. Half of Hypatia's students in the course on Plotinus and (neo)platonism were Christians. Many of them were neo-platonists. But that's the same no true Scotsman defense used to distance every religion from the atrocities they inspire. I don't know who the original Christians were, but the ones who founded the Church (like Cyril who was sainted) were quite happy to destroy classical pagan writings and emphasized faith as the only reliable source of knowledge. Like the communist did with Marx. All good or bad ideas can be exploited by those who pervert them to get power. The problem is not religion, the problem is the lack of genuine religion, or genuine theological (re)search. If we were serious in the theological domain, it would be known by everyone that theology is the domain where the use of the argument per-authority is the *most* damageable. It is the very idea of the blaspheme. Brent I warn people not to seek for anything beyond what they came to believe, for that was all they needed to seek for. In the last resort, however, it is better for you to remain ignorant, for fear that you come to know what you should not know Let curiosity give place to faith, and glory to salvation. Let them at least be no hindrance, or let them keep quiet. To know nothing against the Rule [of faith] is to know everything. --- Tertullian Well, I would ask Tertullian what is it that I should not know. Well, I am not sure. Could be risky. People can confuse my naivety with provocation. That
Re: AI Dooms Us
On 05 Sep 2014, at 23:35, LizR wrote: I don't know how you could do this in practice, but nature has proved that intelligent beings can have their behaviour towards other beings constrained in various ways. An obvious example is that we care for our children. If one could built (or otherwise cause to come into being) an AI with a reward mechanism, and specify that caring about human beings would be one of the ways to trigger it, one might be able to make a benevolent God... If there were such reward system, he will want optimize his reward and He might find more easy to switch his reward system so that it is is triggered by the human suffering, which is far more easy to produce. (Of course Asimov's 3 Laws say exactly this, though in more robotic terms. And one might read Frank Herbert's Destination Void carefully before embarking on this project...) We can't control children and machines, but we can teach them our errors. Bruno -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
RE: AI Dooms Us
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Mikes Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2014 1:27 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: AI Dooms Us Chris: and why on Earth would you exclude the communication of plants etc. from the broad meaning of language? (They don't have a blabbermouth). JM I personally don’t, but probably most people would not think of this system of communication as being a form of language…. Or at least that is what I thought; maybe I am not giving most people enough credit. -Chris On Sat, Sep 6, 2014 at 3:13 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Paul King We learn of each other by interacting this becomes communication once languages emerge... Want to point out that important communication occurs in nature without what we would commonly term language being used. For example, it appears there exists a widespread intra trans-species chemical based signaling system operating amongst plants species (at least amongst those studied), where they are communicating the presence of pathogens and predator species to other nearby plants, in a fairly specific manner that seems to be “understood” by other plants who respond to these specific chemical signals in a timely and appropriate manner. -Chris -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
RE: AI
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kim Jones Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2014 5:55 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: AI 'Means' indicates something happened and you noticed it. You then either recognise this thing or mistake it for something else. Everything means something, but what it means and the fact that it does mean something comes from you, not the thing apprehended. Sorry could not resist… if everything means something, then… what is the meaning of nothing? http://youtu.be/zTLkiJUX05A Kim Jones B. Mus. GDTL Email: kimjo...@ozemail.com.au kmjco...@icloud.com Mobile: 0450 963 719 Phone: 02 93894239 Web: http://www.eportfolio.kmjcommp.com Never let your schooling get in the way of your education - Mark Twain On 7 Sep 2014, at 8:47 am, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: First we'd have to figure out what means means. :-) Brent On 9/6/2014 1:48 PM, John Mikes wrote: Jeez - Liz, correction!!! ( a lot of megabytes have been wasted because people don't agree on what something means) you may have meant: ...on what we THINK a 'meaning' may be ...? Who knows what something (anything) REALLY means? - not me, for sure. John On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 8:06 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: Jeez, and I thought intelligence was the easy one. But yes, using the same definitions is important, a lot of megabytes have been wasted because people don't agree on what something means (I won't mention free will...oops.) On 6 September 2014 09:18, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: After reading lots of repeats by otherwise smart people on the topic: do we have a concensus on this list (narrow target enough?) about some identification of intelligence? (forget Wiki!) I proposed the 'inter-lego' classic, meaning to read (=understand act out, apply, etc.) the meanings BETWEEN the exactly worded lines (not as exactly spelled out verbatim). It requires a WIDER view, some anticipatory talent maybe, some combinatorical capability and so on). There was not too much appreciation (indeed: no reflections at all). On 'artificial' I have a weaker opinion: in our usage of language the word directs my mind towards 'speculative' - as both man-confounded, or contraption-erected results - or both. (I wonder why 'my mind' does avert from the 'naturally grown' as artificial? Indeed Mme.Nature is also just human. Or so we think. Maybe I would lose my agnostic wisdom (ha ha) of unknowable and unfathomable pressures directing the CHANGE in the world). So: are we ready to vote for 'intelligence'? (Not the CIA, mind you!). John M -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: AI Dooms Us
Hi Chris, Does it seem to you that there are two aspects to communication: 1) the physical aspects of the signaling: physically detectable 2) the computational interpretation of the signals: logically inferable? We have no idea if plants have interpretation of the chemical signals in addition to the mere presence and/or absence of such, but presence/absence is sufficient, IMHO, to satisfy 2). On Sun, Sep 7, 2014 at 2:22 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto: everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *John Mikes *Sent:* Saturday, September 06, 2014 1:27 PM *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com *Subject:* Re: AI Dooms Us Chris: and why on Earth would you exclude the communication of plants etc. from the broad meaning of language? (They don't have a blabbermouth). JM I personally don’t, but probably most people would not think of this system of communication as being a form of language…. Or at least that is what I thought; maybe I am not giving most people enough credit. -Chris On Sat, Sep 6, 2014 at 3:13 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto: everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Stephen Paul King We learn of each other by interacting this becomes communication once languages emerge... Want to point out that important communication occurs in nature without what we would commonly term language being used. For example, it appears there exists a widespread intra trans-species chemical based signaling system operating amongst plants species (at least amongst those studied), where they are communicating the presence of pathogens and predator species to other nearby plants, in a fairly specific manner that seems to be “understood” by other plants who respond to these specific chemical signals in a timely and appropriate manner. -Chris -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/everything-list/YJeHJO5dNqQ/unsubscribe. To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- Kindest Regards, Stephen Paul King Senior Researcher Mobile: (864) 567-3099 stephe...@provensecure.com http://www.provensecure.us/ “This message (including any attachments) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is non-public, proprietary, privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law or may be constituted as attorney work product. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, notify sender immediately and delete this message immediately.” -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
RE: AI Dooms Us
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Paul King Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2014 11:43 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: AI Dooms Us Hi Chris, Does it seem to you that there are two aspects to communication: 1) the physical aspects of the signaling: physically detectable 2) the computational interpretation of the signals: logically inferable? We have no idea if plants have interpretation of the chemical signals in addition to the mere presence and/or absence of such, but presence/absence is sufficient, IMHO, to satisfy 2). We do know that other plants are clearly able to interpret the chemical signals they receive, producing the expected appropriate response. How they do so is not so clear to me, but it could be a simple chemical triggering system – where the shape and fit of a particular complex folded aromatic chemical might bind to some specific receptor site and trigger processes at a cellular level. On Sun, Sep 7, 2014 at 2:22 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Mikes Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2014 1:27 PM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: AI Dooms Us Chris: and why on Earth would you exclude the communication of plants etc. from the broad meaning of language? (They don't have a blabbermouth). JM I personally don’t, but probably most people would not think of this system of communication as being a form of language…. Or at least that is what I thought; maybe I am not giving most people enough credit. -Chris On Sat, Sep 6, 2014 at 3:13 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Paul King We learn of each other by interacting this becomes communication once languages emerge... Want to point out that important communication occurs in nature without what we would commonly term language being used. For example, it appears there exists a widespread intra trans-species chemical based signaling system operating amongst plants species (at least amongst those studied), where they are communicating the presence of pathogens and predator species to other nearby plants, in a fairly specific manner that seems to be “understood” by other plants who respond to these specific chemical signals in a timely and appropriate manner. -Chris -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/everything-list/YJeHJO5dNqQ/unsubscribe. To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- Kindest Regards, Stephen Paul King Senior Researcher Mobile: (864) 567-3099 stephe...@provensecure.com http://www.provensecure.us/ http://m.c.lnkd.licdn.com/media/p/8/000/2c9/1ca/29d0ccd.png “This message (including any attachments) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is non-public, proprietary, privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law or may be constituted as attorney work product. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, notify sender immediately and delete this message immediately.” -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group
Re: AI
Brent I could not resist the punny imitation of the (same?) word. The first meantG an explanatory - i.e. - while the second in: *I proposed the 'inter-lego' classic, *[Lat.] * meaning to read (=understand **act out, apply, etc.) the meanings BETWEEN the exactly worded lines **(not as exactly spelled out verbatim)* * ...* refers to the 'stuff' we talk about (Please, don't ask: what is *'stuff'*). Sorry that's my style in this 5th (6th?) of my learned languages. (Especially when talking about that darn 'intelligence'). On Sat, Sep 6, 2014 at 6:47 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: First we'd have to figure out what means means. :-) Brent On 9/6/2014 1:48 PM, John Mikes wrote: Jeez - Liz, correction!!! *( a lot of megabytes have been wasted because people don't agree on what something means)* you may have meant: ...on what we THINK a 'meaning' may be ...? Who knows what something (anything) REALLY means? - not me, for sure. John On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 8:06 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: Jeez, and I thought intelligence was the easy one. But yes, using the same definitions is important, a lot of megabytes have been wasted because people don't agree on what something means (I won't mention free will...oops.) On 6 September 2014 09:18, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: After reading lots of repeats by otherwise smart people on the topic: do we have a concensus on this list (narrow target enough?) about some identification of * intelligence? * (forget Wiki!) I proposed the* 'inter-lego'* classic, meaning to *read* (=understand act out, apply, etc.) the meanings BETWEEN the exactly worded lines (not as exactly spelled out verbatim). It requires a WIDER view, some anticipatory talent maybe, some combinatorical capability and so on). There was not too much appreciation (indeed: no reflections at all). On *'artificial'* I have a weaker opinion: in our usage of language the word directs my mind towards *'speculative'* - as both man-confounded, or contraption-erected results - or both. (I wonder why 'my mind' does avert from the* 'naturally grown'* as artificial? Indeed Mme.Nature is also just human. Or so we think. Maybe I would lose my agnostic wisdom (ha ha) of unknowable and unfathomable pressures directing the *CHANGE* in the world). So: are we ready to vote for 'intelligence'? (Not the CIA, mind you!). John M -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: AI
On 8 September 2014 04:59, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 8:06 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: and I thought intelligence was the easy one. But yes, using the same definitions is important Except for pure mathematics definitions are rarely important, most people have never looked at a dictionary since high school and they manage to get through life OK, and after all examples are where lexicographers got the information to write their dictionary in the first place; much more important than definitions are examples. Intelligence is that quality of mind that Einstein had in greater abundance than the average man; a logician might say that is not perfectly precise and they'd be right, but it's precise enough to work with It helps in discussions like these to agree on what we're talking about, which (by definition :-) means having the same definitions, or ones that are close enough that we aren't talking past each other. All you're talking about is how we can arrive at using the same definitions. One way is via examples, of course. (You appear to be doing a Brent and trying to find something to disagree with when there was no such thing in the original post. In fact, ironically, you're arguing about the definition of definition - which proves my point, actually). -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: AI Dooms Us
On 6 Sep 2014, at 10:03 am, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: PS why is a laser like a goldfish? Because neither can whistle K -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
RE: Higgs Boson particle, a.k.a. the God particle, could end the universe
What do the physicists on this list think about Hawkins recent claim that the Higgs Boson can become metastable at energies above 10^11 GeV and potentially cause the end of the universe by creating an unstoppable vacuum expanding out at the speed of light? Is there something - theoretically possible -- to this latest conjecture of his, or has Stephen been watching too many Dr. Who reruns? Sept. 7 (UPI) -- As first discovered by the http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/god-particle-could-destroy-the-u niverse-says-stephen-hawking/story-fnb64oi6-1227050481513?nk=2d907a0ab52572e 7c9439c4e797e761e Sunday Times of the United Kingdom, in the preface of an upcoming book, Starmus, http://www.upi.com/topic/Stephen_Hawking/ Stephen Hawking claims the Higgs Boson particle, a.k.a. the God particle, could end the universe. He claims if enough energy is directed at the particle, it could cause space and time to completely collapse. He also claims that we wouldn't see it coming. The Higgs Boson particle is said to be the particle that gives matter its mass. The Higgs potential has the worrisome feature that it might become metastable at energies above 100bn gigaelectronvolts (GeV), Hawking writes. He claims that under such conditions, it is theoretically possible the particle would cause an unstoppable vacuum to form that would expand at the speed of light. The likelihood of such an event occurring is apparently very low. According to Hawking, A particle accelerator that reaches 100bn GeV would be larger than Earth, and is unlikely to be funded in the present economic climate. The end of days scenario is then very theoretical, but he still believe it is possible Read more: http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2014/09/07/Higgs-Boson-particle-could-destr oy-universe-according-to-Stephen-Hawking/9651410124628/#ixzz3CgptXOvK http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2014/09/07/Higgs-Boson-particle-could-destro y-universe-according-to-Stephen-Hawking/9651410124628/#ixzz3CgptXOvK -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Higgs Boson particle, a.k.a. the God particle, could end the universe
If I'm allowed to answer (not being a physicist) ... I had the impression that this was already considered to be a possibility - that the current state of the universe might be a false vaccuum (or something like that) which could eventually drop into a lower energy state and destroy the current universe, a bit like dropping a chunk of ice-9 in the ocean. It occurs to me that surely the amount of energy directed at a given region of space (which I assume contains lots of Higgs bosons, or at least the Higgs field) must exceed the specified limit inside things like supernovae and quasars, so presumably if this was likely it would have happened by now??? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Higgs Boson particle, a.k.a. the God particle, could end the universe
My first thought was that this has already happened in an uncountable number of universes but we didn't survive those. Terren On Sep 8, 2014 12:07 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: If I'm allowed to answer (not being a physicist) ... I had the impression that this was already considered to be a possibility - that the current state of the universe might be a false vaccuum (or something like that) which could eventually drop into a lower energy state and destroy the current universe, a bit like dropping a chunk of ice-9 in the ocean. It occurs to me that surely the amount of energy directed at a given region of space (which I assume contains lots of Higgs bosons, or at least the Higgs field) must exceed the specified limit inside things like supernovae and quasars, so presumably if this was likely it would have happened by now??? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: Higgs Boson particle, a.k.a. the God particle, could end the universe
On 8 Sep 2014, at 2:07 pm, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: If I'm allowed to answer (not being a physicist) ... I had the impression that this was already considered to be a possibility - that the current state of the universe might be a false vaccuum (or something like that) which could eventually drop into a lower energy state and destroy the current universe, a bit like dropping a chunk of ice-9 in the ocean. It occurs to me that surely the amount of energy directed at a given region of space (which I assume contains lots of Higgs bosons, or at least the Higgs field) must exceed the specified limit inside things like supernovae and quasars, so presumably if this was likely it would have happened by now??? Yes, yes, yes, and while we're at it I have heard it discreetly rumoured that Dark Energy, the force or property of space that is causing the universe to acceleratde its expansion might similarly become a runaway process causing an atomic rip where matter literally tears itself apart on the back of this galloping inverted-gravitational nightmare. What if they both decided to happen at the same time? You could have a runaway vacuum expanding into a dintegrating matter field at the speed of loght. But of course, there will always be someone there to observe it, now won't there. Kim -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
