date:20160212

Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-12 Thread Terren Suydam

I thought the gravitational waves were generated as the black holes rotated
around one another, not (merely) as a consequence of the collision. Also,
what kinds of interactions transfer the energy/mass of the black holes
themselves into gravitational waves?  I wasn't aware that any energy was
"spent" creating a gravitational wave, much less three solar-masses worth,
in this case.



On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 8:23 PM, John Clark  wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 7:30 PM, Terren Suydam 
> wrote:
>
>
>> > 
>> As amazing as detecting the gravitational waves are, I'm actually more
>> interested in what happens when those two black holes collide... is the
>> resulting explosion entirely contained in the event horizon or is there any
>> possibility that matter/energy can escape due to the high energies involved?
>>
>
> It wasn't an explosion if anything it was an implosion and the results
> were not contained within the event horizon, if they were we wouldn't have
> been able to detect it. What we detected was a 36 solar mass black hole
> merging with a 29 solar mass black hole and producing a 62 solar mass black
> hole with the missing 3 solar masses being converted into energy in the
> form of gravitational waves, which is what LIGO saw. It all happened in a
> fifth of a second. If 3 solar masses had been converted to light instead of
> gravitational waves during that fifth of a second it would have been
> brighter than the rest of the universe put together.
>
>  John K Clark
>
>
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-12 Thread Terren Suydam

Thanks John, interesting. Does current theory make any predictions on how
much energy (electro-magnetic and otherwise) actually is produced during
ring-down, despite the inability to observe it due to the event horizon?

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 11:37 AM, John Clark  wrote:

>
> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 7:57 AM, Terren Suydam 
> wrote:
>
> > 
>> I thought the gravitational waves were generated as the black holes
>> rotated around one another, not (merely) as a consequence of the collision.
>> Also, what kinds of interactions transfer the energy/mass of the black
>> holes themselves into gravitational waves?
>>
>
> Every time a mass accelerates gravity waves are produced, the greater the
> mass and the faster the acceleration the stronger the wave.
>  
> Even the Earth produces a very small amount of Gravitational Waves as it
> accelerates in its orbit around the sun, and the energy to produce the
> waves comes from slowing down Earth's orbital speed and the orbit shrinks
> as a result, but not by much. Each year the Earth gets
>  
> 3.5×10^−13
>  
> meters
>  
> closer to the sun
>  due to gravity waves
> , about 1/300 the diameter of a hydrogen atom.
>
> When 2 black holes merge most of the waves
>  
> are produced
>  
> in a phase called "ring down"; when they first merge they are irregularly
> shaped but
>  
> black holes want to be spherical
>  
> and so start vibrating radically
> and that 
> produces
> 
>  the most intense gravity waves in the universe
> ,
>
> but
> after about a fifth of a second
>  they
> have stop
>  
> vibrating
> and 
> got
> ten
> rid of their irregularities and become spherical.
>  
> It
> took
> 3 solar masses of energy to produce those gravity waves, if it had been
> light
> produced not gravity waves 
> during that fifth of a second
>  it would have been 
> 50 times brighter than everything else in the observable universe put
> together
> .
>
>
>  John K Clark
>
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-12 Thread John Clark

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 7:57 AM, Terren Suydam 
wrote:

> 
> I thought the gravitational waves were generated as the black holes
> rotated around one another, not (merely) as a consequence of the collision.
> Also, what kinds of interactions transfer the energy/mass of the black
> holes themselves into gravitational waves?
>

Every time a mass accelerates gravity waves are produced, the greater the
mass and the faster the acceleration the stronger the wave.

Even the Earth produces a very small amount of Gravitational Waves as it
accelerates in its orbit around the sun, and the energy to produce the
waves comes from slowing down Earth's orbital speed and the orbit shrinks
as a result, but not by much. Each year the Earth gets

3.5×10^−13

meters

closer to the sun
 due to gravity waves
, about 1/300 the diameter of a hydrogen atom.

When 2 black holes merge most of the waves

are produced

in a phase called "ring down"; when they first merge they are irregularly
shaped but

black holes want to be spherical

and so start vibrating radically
and that 
produces

 the most intense gravity waves in the universe
,

but
after about a fifth of a second
 they
have stop

vibrating
and 
got
ten
rid of their irregularities and become spherical.

It
took
3 solar masses of energy to produce those gravity waves, if it had been
light
produced not gravity waves 
during that fifth of a second
 it would have been 
50 times brighter than everything else in the observable universe put
together
.

 John K Clark

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-12 Thread spudboy100 via Everything List

Yeah, I know, but I was wondering if because we are all about photons, 
earth-life, etc; I wondered if we will find interesting things that don't show 
up photometrically, visible light, ultraviolet, infrared, xrays, gamma rays. 
Like a magic gravity telescope that would see something out there in the dark.



-Original Message-
From: Brent Meeker 
To: everything-list 
Sent: Thu, Feb 11, 2016 11:11 pm
Subject: Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!


The LIGO detects gravitational waves - even from events that produceno 
photons.

Brent


On 2/11/2016 7:28 PM, spudboy100 via  Everything List wrote:


My thought is I wonder if its possible to create some  kind of 
gravitational wave detector that can view objects that  don't produce a lot 
of photons. Maybe there could be structures  that wash out photonically, by 
the background radiation, but spike  big time, as grav waves?
  
  Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
  
  
  -Original Message-
  From: Russell Standish 
  To: everything-list 
  Sent: Thu, Feb 11, 2016 05:14 PM
  Subject: Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!
  
  
  Fantastic news!
  
  On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 11:16:57AM -0500, John Clark wrote:
  > On Sept. 14 at 4am the LIGO detector in Livingston Louisiana  
detected a
  > burst of gravitational waves, 7 milliseconds later the LIGO  
detector in
  > Hanford Washington detected the same thing. The possibility  of 
this being
  > due to chance is vanishingly small. What they detected was 2  black 
holes
  > circling each other at 250 times a second, one was 36 times  the 
mass of the
  > sun and the other 29 times. The entire signal only lasted for  a 
fifth of a
  > second.
  > 
  > 
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/12/science/ligo-gravitational-waves-black-holes-einstein.html
  > 
  > 
  > John K Clark
  > 
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  Visiting Senior Research Fellow hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
  Economics, Kingston University http://www.hpcoders.com.au

  
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-12 Thread John Clark

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 4:59 PM, Terren Suydam 
wrote:

> 
> If you were in one of the galaxies involved with the colliding black
> holes, would you be close enough to the gravitational waves to feel them on
> any kind of macroscopic level such as the one we inhabit?
>

Over at the Extropian list Anders Sandberg did a rough calculation and
figured you'd have to be closer than 80,000 miles for it to be lethal to
the human body directly. Granted a thousand times that distance would cause
severe earthquakes, but that's still only 80,000,000 miles, so unless those
two black holes are in your very own solar system and are closer to you
than we are to the sun (and if 2 black holes are that close then you have
severe problems regardless of the gravitational waves) there isn't any
reason to worry about killer gravitational waves.

 John K Clark

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-12 Thread Brent Meeker

Two massive bodies orbit one another - the interaction is 
gravitational.  As their positions change, the gravitational field due 
to their mass-energy must change.  But it can't change instantaneously 
at distant points; the change propagates outward at the speed of light.  
This is a wave in the metric of space time and it carries energy.   The 
energy comes from the orbiting bodies mass-energy so the final black 
hole has less mass than the constituents.

Brent

On 2/12/2016 10:00 PM, Terren Suydam wrote:
Sure, but John said the black holes lost 3 solar masses, which was 
converted into gravitational waves... how? Fusion and fission are easy 
examples of mass to energy conversion - so what's the specific 
interaction here according to theory?

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 10:49 PM, Brent Meeker > wrote:

The interaction is gravitational. The first experimental evidence
for gravitational waves was the correct derivation of the observed
orbital decay of a double star due to energy radiated as
gravitational waves.

Brent

On 2/12/2016 4:57 AM, Terren Suydam wrote:

I thought the gravitational waves were generated as the black
holes rotated around one another, not (merely) as a consequence
of the collision. Also, what kinds of interactions transfer the
energy/mass of the black holes themselves into gravitational
waves?  I wasn't aware that any energy was "spent" creating a
gravitational wave, much less three solar-masses worth, in this
case.

On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 8:23 PM, John Clark > wrote:

On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 7:30 PM, Terren Suydam
>wrote:

 > 
As amazing as detecting the gravitational waves are, I'm
actually more interested in what happens when those two
black holes collide... is the resulting explosion
entirely contained in the event horizon or is there any
possibility that matter/energy can escape due to the high
energies involved?

It wasn't an explosion if anything it was an implosion and
the results were not contained within the event horizon, if
they were we wouldn't have been able to detect it. What we
detected was a 36 solar mass black hole merging with
a 29 solar mass black hole and producing a 62 solar mass
black hole with the missing 3 solar masses being converted
into energy in the form of gravitational waves, which is what
LIGO saw. It all happened in a fifth of a second. If 3 solar
masses had been converted to light instead of gravitational
waves during that fifth of a second it would have been
brighter than the rest of the universe put together.

 John K Clark
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-12 Thread Terren Suydam

Sure, but John said the black holes lost 3 solar masses, which was
converted into gravitational waves... how?  Fusion and fission are easy
examples of mass to energy conversion - so what's the specific interaction
here according to theory?

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 10:49 PM, Brent Meeker  wrote:

> The interaction is gravitational. The first experimental evidence for
> gravitational waves was the correct derivation of the observed orbital
> decay of a double star due to energy radiated as gravitational waves.
>
> Brent
>
>
> On 2/12/2016 4:57 AM, Terren Suydam wrote:
>
> I thought the gravitational waves were generated as the black holes
> rotated around one another, not (merely) as a consequence of the collision.
> Also, what kinds of interactions transfer the energy/mass of the black
> holes themselves into gravitational waves?  I wasn't aware that any energy
> was "spent" creating a gravitational wave, much less three solar-masses
> worth, in this case.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 8:23 PM, John Clark  wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 7:30 PM, Terren Suydam <
>> terren.suy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>  > 
>>> As amazing as detecting the gravitational waves are, I'm actually more
>>> interested in what happens when those two black holes collide... is the
>>> resulting explosion entirely contained in the event horizon or is there any
>>> possibility that matter/energy can escape due to the high energies involved?
>>>
>>
>> It wasn't an explosion if anything it was an implosion and the results
>> were not contained within the event horizon, if they were we wouldn't have
>> been able to detect it. What we detected was a 36 solar mass black hole
>> merging with a 29 solar mass black hole and producing a 62 solar mass black
>> hole with the missing 3 solar masses being converted into energy in the
>> form of gravitational waves, which is what LIGO saw. It all happened in a
>> fifth of a second. If 3 solar masses had been converted to light instead of
>> gravitational waves during that fifth of a second it would have been
>> brighter than the rest of the universe put together.
>>
>>  John K Clark
>>
>> --
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>
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-12 Thread John Clark

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 12:35 PM, Terren Suydam 
wrote:

>
> Thanks John, interesting. Does current theory make any predictions on how
> much energy (electro-magnetic and otherwise) actually is produced during
> ring-down, despite the inability to observe it due to the event horizon?
>

No light or any other form of electromagnetic waves are produced and
that's why  nobody had ever seen it and it was all just theoretical and
nobody knew if it was true, until now. Einstein predicted that when 2 black
holes of those masses  and orbits merged gravitational waves with 3 solar
masses of energy would be produced in a fifth of a second, and that is
exactly what was observed. A better fit between theory and experiment would
be hard to find. Einstein was right yet again, the man was a natural born
winner.

 John K Clark

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-12 Thread Terren Suydam

If you were in one of the galaxies involved with the colliding black holes,
would you be close enough to the gravitational waves to feel them on any
kind of macroscopic level such as the one we inhabit?

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 4:12 PM, John Clark  wrote:

>
> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 12:35 PM, Terren Suydam 
> wrote:
>
> >
>> Thanks John, interesting. Does current theory make any predictions on how
>> much energy (electro-magnetic and otherwise) actually is produced during
>> ring-down, despite the inability to observe it due to the event horizon?
>>
>
> No light or any other form of electromagnetic waves are produced and
> that's why  nobody had ever seen it and it was all just theoretical and
> nobody knew if it was true, until now. Einstein predicted that when 2 black
> holes of those masses  and orbits merged gravitational waves with 3 solar
> masses of energy would be produced in a fifth of a second, and that is
> exactly what was observed. A better fit between theory and experiment would
> be hard to find. Einstein was right yet again, the man was a natural born
> winner.
>
>  John K Clark
>
>
> --
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-12 Thread John Clark

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 1:25 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> 
> Yeah, I know, but I was wondering if because we are all about photons,
> earth-life, etc; I wondered if we will find interesting things that don't
> show up photometrically, visible light, ultraviolet, infrared, xrays, gamma
> rays. Like a magic gravity telescope that would see something out there in
> the dark.
>

As far as we know it wouldn't produce any light and even of it did we
wouldn't know where to point the telescope. We know it happened 1 and a
quarter billion light years away but LIGO has very poor directional
resolution.

 John K Clark

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-12 Thread spudboy100 via Everything List

I also wonder how long it will take to develop refined gravity detectors and 
what this would uncover? If it takes centuries, wake me up when its over. I 
know we have detected neutrinos for decades, and I don't think any fundamental 
changes in cosmology has occured? Its always the sizzle of the steak that 
attracts attention I reckon.

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail


-Original Message-
From: John Clark 
To: everything-list 
Sent: Fri, Feb 12, 2016 04:19 PM
Subject: Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!





On Fri, 
Feb 12, 2016 at 1:25 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com>
 wrote:
> Yeah, I 
know, but I was wondering if because we are all about photons, earth-life, etc; 
I wondered if we will find interesting things that don't show up 
photometrically, visible light, ultraviolet, infrared, xrays, gamma rays. Like 
a magic gravity telescope that would see something out there in the dark.


As far as we know it wouldn't produce any light and even of it did we 
wouldn't know where to point the telescope. We know it happened 1 and a 
quarter billion light years away but LIGO has very poor directional 
resolution.

 John K 
Clark

 



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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-12 Thread Brent Meeker

The interaction is gravitational. The first experimental evidence for 
gravitational waves was the correct derivation of the observed orbital 
decay of a double star due to energy radiated as gravitational waves.

Brent

On 2/12/2016 4:57 AM, Terren Suydam wrote:
I thought the gravitational waves were generated as the black holes 
rotated around one another, not (merely) as a consequence of the 
collision. Also, what kinds of interactions transfer the energy/mass 
of the black holes themselves into gravitational waves?  I wasn't 
aware that any energy was "spent" creating a gravitational wave, much 
less three solar-masses worth, in this case.

On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 8:23 PM, John Clark > wrote:

On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 7:30 PM, Terren Suydam
>wrote:

 > 
As amazing as detecting the gravitational waves are, I'm
actually more interested in what happens when those two black
holes collide... is the resulting explosion entirely contained
in the event horizon or is there any possibility that
matter/energy can escape due to the high energies involved?

It wasn't an explosion if anything it was an implosion and the
results were not contained within the event horizon, if they were
we wouldn't have been able to detect it. What we detected was a
36 solar mass black hole merging with a 29 solar mass black
hole and producing a 62 solar mass black hole with the missing 3
solar masses being converted into energy in the form of
gravitational waves, which is what LIGO saw. It all happened in a
fifth of a second. If 3 solar masses had been converted to light
instead of gravitational waves during that fifth of a second it
would have been brighter than the rest of the universe put together.

 John K Clark
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