On Wednesday, August 31, 2016 at 11:17:22 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 30 Aug 2016, at 18:23, Alan Grayson wrote: > > > > On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 6:10:41 PM UTC-6, Bruce wrote: >> >> On 11/06/2016 3:56 am, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> > On 10 Jun 2016, at 03:02, Bruce Kellett wrote: >> >> On 10/06/2016 1:41 am, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 09 Jun 2016, at 01:28, Bruce Kellett wrote: >> >>>> In other words, FPI is just the statement that Alice and Bob have >> >>>> to look to find out which of the (+,+'), (+,-'), (-,+'), or (-,-') >> >>>> worlds they are in. I don't think that actually adds anything >> >>>> significant to the discussion. >> >>> >> >>> That eliminates the physical spooky action at a distance which are >> >>> necessarily there in QM+collapse. >> >> >> >> You have yet to prove that -- assertion is not proof. >> > >> > By defining world by "closed for interaction", locality follows from >> > linearity. >> >> Bruno, you specialize in these oracular pronouncements that mean >> absolutely nothing. > > > > This is just insulting, and add nothing but confusion. > > Avoid ad hominem patronizing tone and focus on what you do not understand > or disagree with. > > > > "locality follows from linearity" -- what a load of >> total nonsense. >> > > > OK, I was quick there, but I provided more details in *many* other posts. > Please read most of a thread, not just a a sentence here and there and then > adding to the prejudices. > > To be slightly less short, and explain, I was talking in the frame of the > non collapse formulation of QM, and I was just saying that without any > collapse, the linearity of the tensor product with the linearity of the SWE > ensure that at any time everything is local, even computable, in the global > third person picture. > > Basically, "physical non locality" needs to put some amount of 3p sense in > the collapse of the wave, where in the MWI (and in arithmetic) the > indeterminacies and the non local appearances are purely epistemic (first > person or first person plural). > > > > > > >> > There are 1p statistical interference, but Bell's inequality violation >> > is accounted without FTL, which is not the case with collapse, or >> > Bohmian particules. >> > I gave the proof with others, and eventually you admitted that there >> > was no real action at a distance. But with one world, those are real >> > action at a distance. So I think the point has been made. >> >> There is no FTL mechanism in action in one world or many: Bell >> non-locality obeys the no-signalling theorem. You have to get over >> thinking that non-locality means FTL action. >> > > Here's an article of interest. FWIW, I don't believe the no-signalling > theorem puts this issue > to rest. AG > > > In all the thread we (me and Bruce) were agreeing with this, >
I haven't read every post in this thread, but from Bruce's remark above, he apparently believes that you believe in FTL transmission of information, and that since the no-signal theorem denies that, your claim (or any claim of FTL transmission) is falsified.The article I posted denies that the apparent contradiction between relativity and non locality can be resolved simply by appealing to the non-signalling theorem, which Bruce seems to assert. I can only go by his words. So I don't see that the article I posted is irrelevant to the discussion. AG > > The question was specifically about some possible remnant of physical > action at a distance in the MWI. We both know that the non signaling does > not put light on this. Genuine physical action at a distance obviously > exist in the QM-with-collapse, by Bell's inequality violation, but Bell's > argument does not show action at a distance( in any unique branch if that > exist), in the MWI. > > What we have is the contagion of superposition, and they never go quicker > than interaction, that is at sub-speed of light. > > And that is why we can define, or represent the "world" by set of > space-time events closed for interaction. > > > > http://people.uleth.ca/~kent.peacock/FQXi_v2.pdf > > > Interesting (but out of topic indeed). > > Bruno > > > >> >>> That adds nothing, indeed. That shows only that the paradoxes came >> >>> only from the axioms some have added to fit their philosophical >> >>> prejudices. >> >> >> >> So you add axioms to suit your philosophical prejudices just as >> >> others do -- how does that make your position any better than that of >> >> others? >> > >> > No. I subtract axioms. >> > >> > Bohr's axioms: SWE + COLLAPSE + number (add,mult) (+ >> > unintelligible theory of mind) >> > >> > Everett's axioms SWE + Number (add,mult). (+ mechanist theory of >> > mind) >> > >> > Your servitor's axioms: Number(add,mult). (+ mechanist theory >> > of mind) >> > >> > And I don't pretend that is true, only that digital mechanism makes >> > this necessary and testable (modulo the usual "malin génies"). >> >> All the above sets of axioms lead to non-local theories. You may claim >> just to subtract axioms, but that is as much choosing your axioms as any >> other procedure. And you have yet to show that you get the physics of >> this world out of your theory --and demonstrate the necessary stability >> of the physics. Just wishing evil genies away does not actually banish >> them. >> >> Bruce >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>. > To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com > <javascript:>. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
