Re: Has LIGO found new physics?

2016-12-18 Thread spudboy100 via Everything List
There has also be a test of the recent Verlinde paper, and it returned with a 
non-standard prediction of Einstein's original model. As Freeman Dyson said 
long ago, the better our equipment is, the more new things we will discover. 



-Original Message-
From: John Clark 
To: everything-list 
Sent: Sun, Dec 18, 2016 1:18 pm
Subject: Has LIGO found new physics?



On December 9 a paper was published hinting that maybe just maybe the LIGO 
Gravitational Wave detector has found evidence for new physics, the first ever 
departure from General Relativity:



https://arxiv.org/pdf/1612.00266.pdf




String theory says, well...,some string theories say,
​ 
a Black Hole really has 2 event horizons just a few Planck lengths apart, the 
inner one is like the one Einstein predicted where anything crossing it can 
never escape, and the outer event horizon where anything crossing will 
*probably* be trapped to
​o​
 but might still escape if the particle enters at just the right angle. Some 
non-string theories also predict similar event horizons
​,​
 with a few subtle differences from the String Theory version
​,​
 in an effort to avoid the Black Hole information paradox and explain Black 
Hole firewalls.


To Gravitational Waves these 2 event horizons would act like mirrors, most
​ 
waves would pass through both but some would start bouncing back and forth 
between the two
​.​
 
​Eventually
 
​the waves 
would all get out but there would be a delay. The above paper calculates that 
the echo
​s​
 should appear at 0.1 seconds, 0.2 seconds and 0.3 seconds
​
a
fter the primary wave.
​ 
When they looked at the LIGO data for the 3 Black Hole mergers (2 certain and 1 
probable) they seemed to find echos after just
​ 
those delays
​ 
(the delay only changes with the log of of the mass, and the mass of all 3 
events were roughly the same so the delays would be too).
 
​The evidence so far for any of this is weak, the sigma is only 2.9 which means 
if you repeated the experiment 270 times you'd only expect to see the observed 
results once if it was 
​all ​
due to random noise
​.​
 
​Y​
ou need 5 sigma to claim a discover and that's one chance in 3.5 million it's 
just a fluke. A few month ago everybody got excited when the LHC said they may 
have found a new unexpected particle, and the evidence for it was almost as good
​ as LIGO's​
, the sigma was 2.1, but as more data came in the entire thing 
​just ​
disappeared, so caution is warranted.


As LIGO collects more data we should be able to confirm or rule out new physics 
within the next 2 years, less if we're lucky; although the data will probably 
not be good enough to figure out if a string theory o
​r​
 a non-string theory fits the results better, but at least we'll know if there 
is something new 
​under the sun ​
or not.

John K Clark



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Has LIGO found new physics?

2016-12-18 Thread John Clark
On December 9 a paper was published hinting that maybe just maybe the
LIGO Gravitational Wave detector has found evidence for new physics, the
first ever departure from General Relativity:

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1612.00266.pdf

String theory says, well...,some string theories say,
​
a Black Hole really has 2 event horizons just a few Planck lengths apart,
the inner one is like the one Einstein predicted where anything crossing it
can never escape, and the outer event horizon where anything crossing will *
*probably** be trapped to
​o​
 but might still escape if the particle enters at just the right angle.
Some non-string theories also predict similar event horizons
​,​
 with a few subtle differences from the String Theory version
​,​
 in an effort to avoid the Black Hole information paradox and explain Black
Hole firewalls.

To Gravitational Waves these 2 event horizons would act like mirrors, most
​
waves would pass through both but some would start bouncing back and forth
between the two
​.​

​Eventually

​the waves
would all get out but there would be a delay. The above paper calculates
that the echo
​s​
 should appear at 0.1 seconds, 0.2 seconds and 0.3 seconds
​
a
fter the primary wave.
​
When they looked at the LIGO data for the 3 Black Hole mergers (2 certain
and 1 probable) they seemed to find echos after just
​
those delays
​
(the delay only changes with the log of of the mass, and the mass of all 3
events were roughly the same so the delays would be too).

​The evidence so far for any of this is weak, the sigma is only 2.9 which
means if you repeated the experiment 270 times you'd only expect to see the
observed results once if it was
​all ​
due to random noise
​.​

​Y​
ou need 5 sigma to claim a discover and that's one chance in 3.5 million
it's just a fluke. A few month ago everybody got excited when the LHC said
they may have found a new unexpected particle, and the evidence for it was
almost as good
​ as LIGO's​
, the sigma was 2.1, but as more data came in the entire thing
​just ​
disappeared, so caution is warranted.

As LIGO collects more data we should be able to confirm or rule out new
physics within the next 2 years, less if we're lucky; although the data
will probably not be good enough to figure out if a string theory o
​r​
 a non-string theory fits the results better, but at least we'll know if
there is something new
​under the sun ​
or not.

John K Clark

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Re: No gravity / no dark matter

2016-12-18 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 18 Dec 2016, at 00:04, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:


Well, Doc, you mentioned your afterlife view before,


Er well. It is not my view, but the universal machine's one, I mean  
those knowing that they are universal. My view is private, and it  
would be confusing if I tried to describe. It is math, and standard  
definition in analytical philosophy.





and I either found it emotively, unpalatable (Damn. there's goes the  
human amygdala again!) or found it too hard to comprehend,


You can ask question. Do you have a problem with the definition of the  
weak computationalist assumption?






when you used to say "read the universal dovetailer argument," (Darn  
that weak cerebrum!), and so forth.


I don't believe in weak cerebrum. I think you just showed, indeed just  
above, some emotional unpalatableness, if I can say.








My own sense of things driven by both cranial structures, indicate  
for me, that since there is and has been unending tragic goings on  
in the world (perhaps 3.75 billion years worth?), so I in my insight  
have decided its up to our species, and/or its descendents, to sort  
thing out.


yes, but history shows also that the tragic doing is sometime just  
perpetuated by such "good intentions". The passage from unicellular to  
pluricellular was also a way to sort things out, but it made us going  
out of the ocean and it can lost us on Mars, Titan, or far beyond.
Nothing is simple. Beyond universality, simplifying is itself a root  
of complexifying.





I am believing that, lacking all other available actions, computing  
is the way to go. the only way at this point.


To compute you need a universal machine, and that machine is only one  
more unknown in a equation of 8 billions of unknowns.







99.95% of our species population thinks differently from I, and  
taking that as a reasonable sign that I am on the wrong side of  
things, once more, I persist anyway.


We have partial control. The attempt to get total control either kill  
universality/freedom, or get inconsistent/delire/catastrophes.







You look for and accept (as most do!) reality as it is.



I am not sure this makes sense. At some level we all have to do that.  
At a different level, we all try to improve the human condition  
relative to this or that possible "reality".


The main lesson here given by the universal machine, but also by Alan  
Watts (The wisdom of insecurity) or Robert Valadier (Inéluctable  
morale) is ... well, it is sum up in the popular saying "Hell is paved  
with good intention".


One way to help, avoiding that warning, is to study the right, and  
politics, and trying to fix the system, which has been taken into  
hostage since sometimes. Today the fundamental powers (media,  
politics, judiciary, academic, etc.) are no more separated, which is  
mandatory for a democracy (Montesquieu).




I sift through science papers (like at ARXIV) and other popular  
online source, attempting to look for possibilities of things, such  
as cosmological registers of some sort, a MAC address in the sky,  
but something, more read-write, a spacetime SSD, for a laugh.


Everything can be used for a laugh (grin).

Not sure why you want a MAC address in the sky, well, not sure a sky  
belongs to the category of things providing addresses. I Hope you  
don't believe that God lives on some cloud (re-grin).


Bruno



I try to get some rationalist light (for a change) on afterlife,  
soul, consciousness, meaning, etc. And I hope we can improve our  
relations in general by extending our knowledge of that reality,  
although with computationalism, we can never be sure our knowledge  
*is* knowledge, except for a few first person indexical (like a pain  
here or a pleasure here, that we can know but not  
communicate rationally, nor justified).




-Original Message-
From: Bruno Marchal 
To: everything-list 
Sent: Fri, Dec 16, 2016 12:48 pm
Subject: Re: No gravity / no dark matter


On 16 Dec 2016, at 15:11, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:

When entering into discussions such as these, are you doing for the  
intellectual enjoyment of physics, astronomy, and math, or are you  
interested, instead, of allowing humanity better control of our  
region of the universe, by understanding the rules?



I guess each one of us has his, or her, own motivation.

Mine is just to try to figure out what is reality, and what is the  
relation between us and that reality.


I try to get some rationalist light (for a change) on afterlife,  
soul, consciousness, meaning, etc. And I hope we can improve our  
relations in general by extending our knowledge of that reality,  
although with computationalism, we can never be sure our knowledge  
*is* knowledge, except for a few first person indexical (like a pain  
here or a pleasure here, that we can know but not  
communicate rationally, nor justified).


I think most fundamental 

Re: No gravity / no dark matter

2016-12-18 Thread Bruno Marchal


On 18 Dec 2016, at 06:40, Brent Meeker wrote:

Bruno poses the question of whether we would let "the doctor"  
substitute some functionally equivalent mechanism for our brain.   
But why substitute?  Why not just add on.  Well before it's possible  
to provide a substitute brain, it will be possible to provide a  
brain prosthesis that allows enormously greater storage capacity and  
communication with the internet and other similarly augmented  
people.  This offers a kind of immortality much more satisfying that  
survival in some other branch of the Multiple Worlds.



I agree with you.

My point is theoretical. Only a brain, artificial or not, can  
prolongate our normal experience, and an artificial one can help us to  
see the grandgrandchildren growing, and the next soccer cups. To be  
immortal *literally* in that sense would assume a robust universe  
(like in step 7).
So for the long run, and assuming the usual theory, it is hard to  
avoid the "other side" (say).



If my memories and experiences and knowledge can be transferred to  
my children, then they will be me+.  I've often reflected how  
inefficient it is that each child has to start over learning  
reading, writing, and Peano.  But if my memories survive then that's  
pretty close to immortality since memories are the primary element  
of identity that connects me to Brent Meeker of 10yrs ago and of  
20yrs ago and 40yrs ago...


OK. But if you go enough far in the past, like in your mother's womb,  
somehow, you can intuit we are quite alike.
We can go up to the universal machine, I think. We can even dissociate  
from the induction axioms!
As long as someone get the glee of some lovely non go theorem in  
arithmetic, like the irrationality of the square root of 2, I will be  
there :)


Bruno



Brent

On 12/17/2016 3:04 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
Well, Doc, you mentioned your afterlife view before, and I either  
found it emotively, unpalatable (Damn. there's goes the human  
amygdala again!) or found it too hard to comprehend, when you used  
to say "read the universal dovetailer argument," (Darn that weak  
cerebrum!), and so forth.


My own sense of things driven by both cranial structures, indicate  
for me, that since there is and has been unending tragic goings on  
in the world (perhaps 3.75 billion years worth?), so I in my  
insight have decided its up to our species, and/or its descendents,  
to sort thing out. I am believing that, lacking all other available  
actions, computing is the way to go. the only way at this point.   
99.95% of our species population thinks differently from I, and  
taking that as a reasonable sign that I am on the wrong side of  
things, once more, I persist anyway.


You look for and accept (as most do!) reality as it is. I sift  
through science papers (like at ARXIV) and other popular online  
source, attempting to look for possibilities of things, such as  
cosmological registers of some sort, a MAC address in the sky, but  
something, more read-write, a spacetime SSD, for a laugh.
I try to get some rationalist light (for a change) on afterlife,  
soul, consciousness, meaning, etc. And I hope we can improve our  
relations in general by extending our knowledge of that reality,  
although with computationalism, we can never be sure our knowledge  
*is* knowledge, except for a few first person indexical (like a  
pain here or a pleasure here, that we can know but not  
communicate rationally, nor justified).




-Original Message-
From: Bruno Marchal 
To: everything-list 
Sent: Fri, Dec 16, 2016 12:48 pm
Subject: Re: No gravity / no dark matter


On 16 Dec 2016, at 15:11, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:

When entering into discussions such as these, are you doing for the  
intellectual enjoyment of physics, astronomy, and math, or are you  
interested, instead, of allowing humanity better control of our  
region of the universe, by understanding the rules?



I guess each one of us has his, or her, own motivation.

Mine is just to try to figure out what is reality, and what is the  
relation between us and that reality.


I try to get some rationalist light (for a change) on afterlife,  
soul, consciousness, meaning, etc. And I hope we can improve our  
relations in general by extending our knowledge of that reality,  
although with computationalism, we can never be sure our knowledge  
*is* knowledge, except for a few first person indexical (like a  
pain here or a pleasure here, that we can know but not  
communicate rationally, nor justified).


I think most fundamental researchers are motivated by a curiosity  
and fascination on some Reality that they are searching, and often,  
it can happen they get cursed by the beauty of their theories,  
which can help but can also become an handicapthat will depend  
on many things.


So it is neither for the enjoyment of some science per se, nor for  
helping 

Re: No gravity / no dark matter

2016-12-18 Thread PGC


On Sunday, December 18, 2016 at 6:40:17 AM UTC+1, Brent wrote:
>
> Bruno poses the question of whether we would let "the doctor" substitute 
> some functionally equivalent mechanism for our brain.  But why substitute?  
> Why not just add on.  
>

Good question.
 

> Well before it's possible to provide a substitute brain, it will be 
> possible to provide a brain prosthesis that allows enormously greater 
> storage capacity and communication with the internet and other similarly 
> augmented people.  This offers a kind of immortality much more satisfying 
> that survival in some other branch of the Multiple Worlds.  If my memories 
> and experiences and knowledge can be transferred to my children, then they 
> will be me+. 
>

That assumes that children would want our memories. Because with such 
memories our descendants could also inherit bad habits, traumas etc. along 
with what we deem to be the positive content. In certain circumstances 
you'd want perhaps to label certain stored memories with a warning maybe, 
as "useful but with side-effect of trauma that caused me social anxiety" 
and leave the choice up to the kids. :-) 

Perhaps offer abridged text-based or holodeck VR versions that require less 
commitment and a bit of distance for some flexibility, lol.

I've often reflected how inefficient it is that each child has to start 
> over learning reading, writing, and Peano.  
>

Inefficient only when we rigidly impose our standards and biases. When we 
don't do that, these seemingly boring tasks are the most awesome magic 
available because above the tedium, you see the full person developing into 
who they are, refuting all our theories and standards + sharing with us the 
beginning of fresh new worlds that replenish the appetite for life. I 
wouldn't trade these useless memories for anything nor would I want 
descendants to be necessarily encumbered by them. This keeps 
control-freakishness and insecurities in check for folks who practice the 
art of letting go.
 

> But if my memories survive then that's pretty close to immortality since 
> memories are the primary element of identity that connects me to Brent 
> Meeker of 10yrs ago and of 20yrs ago and 40yrs ago...
>

There is also perhaps some Brentness beyond the memories. Attitudes, 
styles, the type of clothing/hats we wear, our musics, our jokes, aesthetic 
dimensions of who we are etc. The stuff only our intimate buddies and 
partners have the pleasure or displeasure to get to approach/know, which 
might be alluded to through some poetry, music, farewell from friends and 
family or similar things when we pass away? 

There are also the practical limits of memory: what we can be aware of in 
any single moment, as with Turing machines, is limited to the symbol being 
scanned, even if a Turing machine can alter their m-configuration to 
remember symbols previously scanned. And in any language, there is a good 
reason for an upper limit to awareness concerning length of compound 
symbols. 555 or  are compound symbols and we 
can't tell at a glance whether one is larger or the same. So that 
harmonizes nicely with experience. Also, Turing machines are assumed to 
have finite amount of states for a similar reason to limits of compound 
symbols: If we allow infinity of states, some of them will be arbitrarily 
close and we get a messy confusion, when we could avoid use of highly 
complicated/confusing states of mind by writing more symbols on the tape 
and referring to memory as needed.

But indeed, why encumber descendants with ALL our luggage? Some memories of 
mine, even I can live without, lol. 

I'll just make sure to leave the keys, nuclear weapons, Doctors', lawyers' 
and accountants' contact details, should there ever be any trouble, and 
place memories into some sorted storage with warning labels and sales 
pitches. That is, if this variety of fuzzy Sunday afternoon options ever 
does become available. PGC 


  

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