Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

Yes, exactly. There's something it is like to be a thermostat. What is it like? As a basic homeostatic model, with a single recursive element - the dynamics are enough to create an ongoing stream of awareness of the state of a single bit of information. On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 1:30 AM 'Brent

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

It appears to me that every system that has a function will have a cybernetic description, i.e. one that only mentions functional relationships but not the matter.  I can imagine such a description of my thermostat: There's an element that changes with temperature and makes a connection below

Re: for Cosmin

What I wonder is how do these new qualia get passed on to his progeny, since DNA doesn't exist. Brent On 5/4/2019 7:44 PM, Terren Suydam wrote: So you're counting this anecdote as evidence for your theory? Is this what you mean by evolution, that the author of that story evolved to

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

The cybernetic description of a system is a description of a system's relationships, both internally in terms of the system's organization - how its components relate to each other functionally, and externally in terms of a system's functional relationship to its environment. A cybernetic

Re: for Cosmin

So you're counting this anecdote as evidence for your theory? Is this what you mean by evolution, that the author of that story evolved to experience new qualia in the form of a reality-selecting extra-dimensional universe-sized roulette wheel, and it's this evolution that enabled him to survive?

Re: My book "I Am" published on amazon

On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 9:15 PM 'Cosmin Visan' < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: *> What happens in cases of telepathy is [...]. For example, in cases of > dream telepathy [...] This clearly is a case of dream telepathy.* > OK, there was little doubt before but you just made it

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

Being in an AI lab, I went to AI and NN (neural net) conferences for 20 years. Today if I was interested in an AI research career and I was in my 20s again, I would begin in bio-AI. Synthetic biology routes to bio-artificial intelligence https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5264507/

Re: My book "I Am" published on amazon

What happens in cases of telepathy is that certain, but not necessarily all of them, are encompassed by a new look-back-at-itself of self-reference, and then that encompassing disappears. For example, in cases of dream telepathy, some might dream that it is at a high school party, while the

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 12:35 PM wrote: > *This obviously has nothing to do with Searle's argument* > What's that? I've never seen an argument, all I've seen is Searle's Chinese Room and that's not an argument that's just an exercise in typing. John K Clark > -- You received this message

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On 5/4/2019 3:37 PM, cloudver...@gmail.com wrote: What is the interest in silicon, BTW? It's the main component of modern electronics, and hence the basis of AI the way carbon is the basis of life. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

What is the interest in silicon, BTW? Do you own stock in a silicon production company? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_silicon_producers @philipthrift On Saturday, May 4, 2019 at 4:10:07 PM UTC-5,

Re: for Cosmin

Here is an example of a fascinating qualia generation that helped him survive a car accident: https://www.nderf.org/Experiences/1wilson_fde.html -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

I am not a chemist, biochemist, or neurochemist, but of the list of alternatives listed: - 1Shadow biosphere - 2Alternative-chirality biomolecules

Re: for Cosmin

On 5/4/2019 7:53 AM, Terren Suydam wrote: I'm not going to read your articles or your book or watch your videos because you've given me no reason to spend my most precious resource, which is time. Perhaps I'm being closed-minded, but under the assumption that you want as many people to read

Re: for Cosmin

On 5/4/2019 7:25 AM, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List wrote: I should emphasize a little more what life-or-death situation means for your dog experiment. If you somehow plan to make the colorblind dog starve to death and put in front of him food and expect him to see colors and eat the

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On 5/4/2019 6:30 AM, Terren Suydam wrote: What I'm suggesting draws on both functionalism and identity theory. It's functional in the sense that the constitutive aspect of cybernetics is entirely functional. So what is the function that makes a system "cybernetic" and is that sufficient to

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

OK, thrift-bot, that addresses the first part of my hypothetical, what about the second part? That the beings who are visiting are actual robots synthesized by an alien race? Are they still conscious? If not, why not? Terren On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 12:35 PM wrote: > > This is more than the

Re: for Cosmin

On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 12:56 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > >> Regarding the dog, I would never run that specific experiment because >> it's unethical. There are potentially other ways to settle the bet, though. >> If we can generalize your

Re: for Cosmin

On Saturday, 4 May 2019 17:54:03 UTC+3, Terren Suydam wrote: > > I'm not going to read your articles or your book or watch your videos > because you've given me no reason to spend my most precious resource, which > is time. Perhaps I'm being closed-minded, but under the assumption that you >

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

This is more than the 20th time I have said here there could be conscious beings made of *biochemical alternatives*: Hypothetical types of biochemistry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry cf: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organosilicon This obviously has nothing

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

Let's say we were visited by aliens and we were able to communicate with them such that it seemed obvious they were conscious. Then, we discovered that their nervous systems, or whatever the analog of such was, was constituted from silicon, but let's call it organic, wet, and so on, just an

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 10:58 AM wrote: *> It seems people will remain in the delusion that software or programming > in a conventional computer device - even with many processors - will > achieve consciousness.* > Do you also believe it's a delusion to think a person with a different skin color

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

It's not a delusion if you're starting from the same assumptions I am. Your assumptions involve a delusion from my perspective, which is that there's something special about biological material that makes it conscious, but not, potentially, computers. Sometimes you invoke panpsychism, but when

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

But you have contributed to establishing a term: *cybernetic delusion* - the delusion that software or programming in a conventional computer device (even one with many processors) will ever achieve consciousness That is useful. @philipthrift On Saturday, May 4, 2019 at 9:58:09 AM

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

It seems people will remain in the delusion that software or programming in a conventional computer device - even with many processors - will achieve consciousness. Searle's Chinese Room argument still does apply here, as anyone should clearly be able to see. One can wave the magic word

Re: for Cosmin

I'm not going to read your articles or your book or watch your videos because you've given me no reason to spend my most precious resource, which is time. Perhaps I'm being closed-minded, but under the assumption that you want as many people to read and consider your ideas as possible, you may

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

I'm beginning to suspect that you're a chatbot... a pretty good one - the best I've seen, even. Your responses are syntactically correct and seemingly relevant semantically, but whenever I or anyone else tries to pin you down and get you to articulate specifics, your response is inevitably to

Re: for Cosmin

I should emphasize a little more what life-or-death situation means for your dog experiment. If you somehow plan to make the colorblind dog starve to death and put in front of him food and expect him to see colors and eat the food, but in case he doesn't see colors you make a back-up plan of

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

I understand basically what your idea is, but "cybernetic dynamics" reminds me of Norbert Weiner's subject of cybernetics, something I read about decades ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybernetics:_Or_Control_and_Communication_in_the_Animal_and_the_Machine One should be able to replace

Re: for Cosmin

On Thursday, 2 May 2019 15:32:43 UTC+3, Terren Suydam wrote: > > > On Wed, May 1, 2019 at 5:57 PM 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < > everyth...@googlegroups.com > wrote: > >> the definition that I'm giving for "existence" is the >> looking-back-at-itself of self-reference, through which

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

I should add that the cybernetic description of a system is entirely functional, but the emphasis is on the holistic perspective. Functionalism tends to be reductive, but the consciousness identified with a given cybernetic description is the system as a whole. That's why replacing a neuron with

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

What I'm suggesting draws on both functionalism and identity theory. It's functional in the sense that the constitutive aspect of cybernetics is entirely functional. There is nothing in a cybernetic description beyond the functional relationships between the parts of that system. It draws on

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

I must assume you have already studied (hopefully over many years) in philosophy the difference between *functionalism*: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/functionalism/ and *identity theory*: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/mind-identity/ A short way of expressing identity theory

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 8:19 PM wrote: > *As you see in the article on functionalism:* > *Functionalism developed largely as an alternative to* identity theory > ... > *which is at least in the same ballpark as my view.* > Just tell me if

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

Maybe you could tell me what specific criticism you have rather than quoting a wikipedia article. On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 7:50 PM wrote: > > > I don't believe in the "*functional* equivalence" principle > >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functionalism_(philosophy_of_mind) > > as it does not

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 7:32:15 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 5/3/2019 2:00 PM, cloud...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 3:26:26 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 5/3/2019 12:00 PM, cloud...@gmail.com wrote: >> >> >> >> If "consciousness doesn't supervene on