Re: How do AI fanboys explain telepathy and precognition ?

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 5/11/2019 6:58 PM, Philip Thrift wrote:




On Saturday, May 11, 2019 at 6:52:36 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote:



On 5/11/2019 4:16 PM, Philip Thrift wrote:



On Saturday, May 11, 2019 at 6:06:31 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote:



On 5/11/2019 3:45 PM, Philip Thrift wrote:



On Saturday, May 11, 2019 at 3:31:19 PM UTC-5, Cosmin Visan
wrote:

How do AI fanboys explain telepathy and precognition ?
In the case of consciousness <> AI, telepathy and
precognition are more easily explainable, in the sense
that consciousness being non-local, it can indeed create
cases in which spatially and temporally separated
consciousness can communicate. But in the case of local
AIs, how can such phenomena have any chance of being
explained ?


I doubt telepathy, but I do have a low-level precognition
thought experiment handy:

In the typical EPR experiment setup, particle A goes one
way, and particle B goes another way, to detector-A and
detector-B respectively.

Now particles A and B are "entangled" (quantum-mechanically)
, so that detector-B settings will stochastically influence
what detector-A detects (and vice versa).

Now suppose detector-A is placed in a person's brain (not
far away) in such a way that particle A (via detector-A)
influences a neuron or two, but detector-B is light years
(traveling distance) away. Can detector-B settings made
years in the future influence what the person's neurons do
in the present?


Why make it impossible to perform by placing B far away?  The
only relevant condition is whether Bob's setting was made
space-like or time-like relative to Alice's.  And that kind
of experiment has been done.  There is correlation per QM.

Brent



Huh? I claimed it was possible to perform. Not impossible to perform.


You claim we can send Bob light years away to perform this
experiment??  How?

And why bother since Aspect has already done it with Bob selecting
his setting space-like relative to Alice's?  The case in which
Bob's setting is done in Alice's future light cone has been done
too, but isn't very interesting since Alice could then influence
Bob's setting.   Are you testing whether Alice's neurons will
agree with Alice's instruments?  I don't see what you're getting at?

Brent





No. Bob could be someone on another planet (Bob will in the future of 
that other planet).



Or the idea already discussed, that the B particle could go out into 
space and heavy masses could bend its path around and it returns to 
Earth. In the future.


In any case, Bob is someone in the future, not the present.


So suppose Alice, in her lab makes a setting and measures her entangled 
particle.   The she walks down the hall to Bob's lab and says, "Ok, Bob 
you are in the future of my setting and measurements.  Go ahead and do 
your thing."  What difference is there between that and Bob is on 
another planet?  He's in Alice's future light cone.


Brent

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Re: How do AI fanboys explain telepathy and precognition ?

[Philip Thrift]

On Saturday, May 11, 2019 at 6:52:36 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote:
>
>
>
> On 5/11/2019 4:16 PM, Philip Thrift wrote:
>
>
>
> On Saturday, May 11, 2019 at 6:06:31 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: 
>>
>>
>>
>> On 5/11/2019 3:45 PM, Philip Thrift wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, May 11, 2019 at 3:31:19 PM UTC-5, Cosmin Visan wrote: 
>>>
>>> How do AI fanboys explain telepathy and precognition ? In the case of 
>>> consciousness <> AI, telepathy and precognition are more easily 
>>> explainable, in the sense that consciousness being non-local, it can indeed 
>>> create cases in which spatially and temporally separated consciousness can 
>>> communicate. But in the case of local AIs, how can such phenomena have any 
>>> chance of being explained ? 
>>>
>>
>> I doubt telepathy, but I do have a low-level precognition thought 
>> experiment handy:
>>
>> In the typical EPR experiment setup, particle A goes one way, and 
>> particle B goes another way, to detector-A and detector-B respectively.
>>
>> Now particles A and B are "entangled" (quantum-mechanically) , so that 
>> detector-B settings will stochastically influence what detector-A detects 
>> (and vice versa).
>>
>> Now suppose detector-A is placed in a person's brain (not far away) in 
>> such a way that particle A (via detector-A) influences a neuron or two, but 
>> detector-B is light years (traveling distance) away. Can detector-B 
>> settings made years in the future influence what the person's neurons do in 
>> the present?
>>
>>
>> Why make it impossible to perform by placing B far away?  The only 
>> relevant condition is whether Bob's setting was made space-like or 
>> time-like relative to Alice's.  And that kind of experiment has been done.  
>> There is correlation per QM.
>>
>> Brent
>>
>
>  
>
> Huh? I claimed it was possible to perform. Not impossible to perform.
>
>
> You claim we can send Bob light years away to perform this experiment??  
> How?   
>
> And why bother since Aspect has already done it with Bob selecting his 
> setting space-like relative to Alice's?  The case in which Bob's setting is 
> done in Alice's future light cone has been done too, but isn't very 
> interesting since Alice could then influence Bob's setting.   Are you 
> testing whether Alice's neurons will agree with Alice's instruments?  I 
> don't see what you're getting at?
>
> Brent
>




No. Bob could be someone on another planet (Bob will in the future of that 
other planet).


Or the idea already discussed, that the B particle could go out into space 
and heavy masses could bend its path around and it returns to Earth. In the 
future.

In any case, Bob is someone in the future, not the present.










philipthrift

@philipthrift 

 

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Re: How do AI fanboys explain telepathy and precognition ?

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 5/11/2019 4:16 PM, Philip Thrift wrote:



On Saturday, May 11, 2019 at 6:06:31 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote:



On 5/11/2019 3:45 PM, Philip Thrift wrote:



On Saturday, May 11, 2019 at 3:31:19 PM UTC-5, Cosmin Visan wrote:

How do AI fanboys explain telepathy and precognition ? In the
case of consciousness <> AI, telepathy and precognition are
more easily explainable, in the sense that consciousness
being non-local, it can indeed create cases in which
spatially and temporally separated consciousness can
communicate. But in the case of local AIs, how can such
phenomena have any chance of being explained ?


I doubt telepathy, but I do have a low-level precognition thought
experiment handy:

In the typical EPR experiment setup, particle A goes one way, and
particle B goes another way, to detector-A and detector-B
respectively.

Now particles A and B are "entangled" (quantum-mechanically) , so
that detector-B settings will stochastically influence what
detector-A detects (and vice versa).

Now suppose detector-A is placed in a person's brain (not far
away) in such a way that particle A (via detector-A) influences a
neuron or two, but detector-B is light years (traveling distance)
away. Can detector-B settings made years in the future influence
what the person's neurons do in the present?


Why make it impossible to perform by placing B far away? The only
relevant condition is whether Bob's setting was made space-like or
time-like relative to Alice's.  And that kind of experiment has
been done.  There is correlation per QM.

Brent



Huh? I claimed it was possible to perform. Not impossible to perform.


You claim we can send Bob light years away to perform this experiment??  
How?


And why bother since Aspect has already done it with Bob selecting his 
setting space-like relative to Alice's?  The case in which Bob's setting 
is done in Alice's future light cone has been done too, but isn't very 
interesting since Alice could then influence Bob's setting.   Are you 
testing whether Alice's neurons will agree with Alice's instruments?  I 
don't see what you're getting at?


Brent



@philipthrift
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Re: How do AI fanboys explain telepathy and precognition ?

[Philip Thrift]

On Saturday, May 11, 2019 at 6:29:20 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote:
>
> On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 4:31 PM 'Cosmin Visan'  List <
> everyth...@googlegroups.com > wrote:
>
> *> How do AI fanboys explain telepathy and precognition ?*
>>
>
> That's easily explained. Millions of people are unscientific enough to 
> believe in the virgin birth, the infallibility of the pope, a picture of 
> Jesus in a pizza , astrology and the the evils of vaccination; so it's 
> not surprising that millions of people are unscientific enough to believe 
> in telepathy and precognition. 
>
>  John K Clark
>
>
>
Still, a little Feyerabend never hurts -  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Feyerabend 

>  
>

@philipthrift
 

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Re: How do AI fanboys explain telepathy and precognition ?

[John Clark]

On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 4:31 PM 'Cosmin Visan'  List <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:

*> How do AI fanboys explain telepathy and precognition ?*
>

That's easily explained. Millions of people are unscientific enough to
believe in the virgin birth, the infallibility of the pope, a picture of
Jesus in a pizza , astrology and the the evils of vaccination; so it's not
surprising that millions of people are unscientific enough to believe in
telepathy and precognition.

 John K Clark

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Re: How separating mind from matter ruined mental health

[Philip Thrift]

On Saturday, May 11, 2019 at 6:09:08 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote:
>
> On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 2:34 PM Philip Thrift  > wrote:
>
> *> We talk about the sun and solar activities (like fusion, magnetic 
>> propagation, etc.) but we don't talk about solar activities distinct from 
>> the sun in any weird way,*
>
>
> You can't have solar activity without the sun, and there is nothing weird 
> about that. 
>
>>  
>
>> *> like people do with brain and mental activities (of the mind).*
>>
>
> You can't have brain activity without a brain, and there is nothing weird 
> about that either. 
>  
>
>> *> If "I" is an adjective, so is "you".*
>>
>
> Yes.
>
> > *You matter speaks strangely. *
>>
>
> My and probably your third grade English teacher is the one that spoke 
> strangely 
>
> John K Clark  
>
>
>
>
At least now you are saying "brain activity" instead of "mind". That's 
progress.

Although to make a direct linguistic comparison to "solar activity" (not 
"sun activity") it would be "brainial activity". 

@philipthrift

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Re: How do AI fanboys explain telepathy and precognition ?

[Philip Thrift]

On Saturday, May 11, 2019 at 6:06:31 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote:
>
>
>
> On 5/11/2019 3:45 PM, Philip Thrift wrote:
>
>
>
> On Saturday, May 11, 2019 at 3:31:19 PM UTC-5, Cosmin Visan wrote: 
>>
>> How do AI fanboys explain telepathy and precognition ? In the case of 
>> consciousness <> AI, telepathy and precognition are more easily 
>> explainable, in the sense that consciousness being non-local, it can indeed 
>> create cases in which spatially and temporally separated consciousness can 
>> communicate. But in the case of local AIs, how can such phenomena have any 
>> chance of being explained ? 
>>
>
> I doubt telepathy, but I do have a low-level precognition thought 
> experiment handy:
>
> In the typical EPR experiment setup, particle A goes one way, and particle 
> B goes another way, to detector-A and detector-B respectively.
>
> Now particles A and B are "entangled" (quantum-mechanically) , so that 
> detector-B settings will stochastically influence what detector-A detects 
> (and vice versa).
>
> Now suppose detector-A is placed in a person's brain (not far away) in 
> such a way that particle A (via detector-A) influences a neuron or two, but 
> detector-B is light years (traveling distance) away. Can detector-B 
> settings made years in the future influence what the person's neurons do in 
> the present?
>
>
> Why make it impossible to perform by placing B far away?  The only 
> relevant condition is whether Bob's setting was made space-like or 
> time-like relative to Alice's.  And that kind of experiment has been done.  
> There is correlation per QM.
>
> Brent
>

 

Huh? I claimed it was possible to perform. Not impossible to perform.

@philipthrift 

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Re: How do AI fanboys explain telepathy and precognition ?

[Lawrence Crowell]

My my, this list has started to be dominated by woo woo. There is no 
evidence for telepathy and the rest. Don't even bother replying to that, I 
will not further respond. This is all nonsense.

Can this list return to physics and science instead of pseudoscientific 
rubbish?

LC

On Saturday, May 11, 2019 at 3:31:19 PM UTC-5, Cosmin Visan wrote:
>
> How do AI fanboys explain telepathy and precognition ? In the case of 
> consciousness <> AI, telepathy and precognition are more easily 
> explainable, in the sense that consciousness being non-local, it can indeed 
> create cases in which spatially and temporally separated consciousness can 
> communicate. But in the case of local AIs, how can such phenomena have any 
> chance of being explained ? 
>

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Re: How do AI fanboys explain telepathy and precognition ?

[Philip Thrift]

On Saturday, May 11, 2019 at 6:06:17 PM UTC-5, telmo wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sat, May 11, 2019, at 23:45, Philip Thrift wrote:
>
>
>
> On Saturday, May 11, 2019 at 3:31:19 PM UTC-5, Cosmin Visan wrote:
>
> How do AI fanboys explain telepathy and precognition ? In the case of 
> consciousness <> AI, telepathy and precognition are more easily 
> explainable, in the sense that consciousness being non-local, it can indeed 
> create cases in which spatially and temporally separated consciousness can 
> communicate. But in the case of local AIs, how can such phenomena have any 
> chance of being explained ? 
>
>
> I doubt telepathy, but I do have a low-level precognition thought 
> experiment handy:
>
> In the typical EPR experiment setup, particle A goes one way, and particle 
> B goes another way, to detector-A and detector-B respectively.
>
> Now particles A and B are "entangled" (quantum-mechanically) , so that 
> detector-B settings will stochastically influence what detector-A detects 
> (and vice versa).
>
> Now suppose detector-A is placed in a person's brain (not far away) in 
> such a way that particle A (via detector-A) influences a neuron or two, but 
> detector-B is light years (traveling distance) away. Can detector-B 
> settings made years in the future influence what the person's neurons do in 
> the present?
>
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-communication_theorem
>
> Telmo.
>
>
>
Another misguided and misleading theorem of (most, not all) physicists.

*Doesn't apply because it has unjustified assumptions*:

https://arxiv.org/abs/1307.7744

@philipthrift

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Re: How separating mind from matter ruined mental health

[John Clark]

On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 2:34 PM Philip Thrift  wrote:

*> We talk about the sun and solar activities (like fusion, magnetic
> propagation, etc.) but we don't talk about solar activities distinct from
> the sun in any weird way,*


You can't have solar activity without the sun, and there is nothing weird
about that.

>

> *> like people do with brain and mental activities (of the mind).*
>

You can't have brain activity without a brain, and there is nothing weird
about that either.


> *> If "I" is an adjective, so is "you".*
>

Yes.

> *You matter speaks strangely. *
>

My and probably your third grade English teacher is the one that spoke
strangely

John K Clark





>

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Re: How do AI fanboys explain telepathy and precognition ?

[Telmo Menezes]

On Sat, May 11, 2019, at 23:45, Philip Thrift wrote:
> 
> 
> On Saturday, May 11, 2019 at 3:31:19 PM UTC-5, Cosmin Visan wrote:
>> How do AI fanboys explain telepathy and precognition ? In the case of 
>> consciousness <> AI, telepathy and precognition are more easily explainable, 
>> in the sense that consciousness being non-local, it can indeed create cases 
>> in which spatially and temporally separated consciousness can communicate. 
>> But in the case of local AIs, how can such phenomena have any chance of 
>> being explained ? 
> 
> I doubt telepathy, but I do have a low-level precognition thought experiment 
> handy:
> 
> In the typical EPR experiment setup, particle A goes one way, and particle B 
> goes another way, to detector-A and detector-B respectively.
> 
> Now particles A and B are "entangled" (quantum-mechanically) , so that 
> detector-B settings will stochastically influence what detector-A detects 
> (and vice versa).
> 
> Now suppose detector-A is placed in a person's brain (not far away) in such a 
> way that particle A (via detector-A) influences a neuron or two, but 
> detector-B is light years (traveling distance) away. Can detector-B settings 
> made years in the future influence what the person's neurons do in the 
> present?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-communication_theorem

Telmo.

> 
> @philipthrift
> 
> 

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Re: How do AI fanboys explain telepathy and precognition ?

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 5/11/2019 3:45 PM, Philip Thrift wrote:



On Saturday, May 11, 2019 at 3:31:19 PM UTC-5, Cosmin Visan wrote:

How do AI fanboys explain telepathy and precognition ? In the case
of consciousness <> AI, telepathy and precognition are more easily
explainable, in the sense that consciousness being non-local, it
can indeed create cases in which spatially and temporally
separated consciousness can communicate. But in the case of local
AIs, how can such phenomena have any chance of being explained ?


I doubt telepathy, but I do have a low-level precognition thought 
experiment handy:


In the typical EPR experiment setup, particle A goes one way, and 
particle B goes another way, to detector-A and detector-B respectively.


Now particles A and B are "entangled" (quantum-mechanically) , so that 
detector-B settings will stochastically influence what detector-A 
detects (and vice versa).


Now suppose detector-A is placed in a person's brain (not far away) in 
such a way that particle A (via detector-A) influences a neuron or 
two, but detector-B is light years (traveling distance) away. Can 
detector-B settings made years in the future influence what the 
person's neurons do in the present?


Why make it impossible to perform by placing B far away?  The only 
relevant condition is whether Bob's setting was made space-like or 
time-like relative to Alice's.  And that kind of experiment has been 
done.  There is correlation per QM.


Brent

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Re: How do AI fanboys explain telepathy and precognition ?

[Telmo Menezes]

On Sat, May 11, 2019, at 23:21, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List wrote:
> 
> 
> On 5/11/2019 1:31 PM, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List wrote:
>> How do AI fanboys explain telepathy and precognition ?
> 
> Tell me what book I'm thinking of and I'll tell you how explain. However, I 
> do forsee your failure (as does my laptop).

Very clever, but how do we know you are not an AI yourself?

Telmo.

> 
>  Brent
> 
> 
>> In the case of consciousness <> AI, telepathy and precognition are more 
>> easily explainable, in the sense that consciousness being non-local, it can 
>> indeed create cases in which spatially and temporally separated 
>> consciousness can communicate. But in the case of local AIs, how can such 
>> phenomena have any chance of being explained ? 
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Re: How do AI fanboys explain telepathy and precognition ?

[Telmo Menezes]

On Sat, May 11, 2019, at 21:31, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List wrote:
> How do AI fanboys explain telepathy and precognition ? In the case of 
> consciousness <> AI, telepathy and precognition are more easily explainable, 
> in the sense that consciousness being non-local, it can indeed create cases 
> in which spatially and temporally separated consciousness can communicate. 
> But in the case of local AIs, how can such phenomena have any chance of being 
> explained ? 

Even assuming that telepathy and precognition are real phenomena, your argument 
still doesn't work because computations are also non-local. The same 
computation can be performed wherever, whenever.

Telmo.

> 

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Re: How do AI fanboys explain telepathy and precognition ?

[Philip Thrift]

On Saturday, May 11, 2019 at 3:31:19 PM UTC-5, Cosmin Visan wrote:
>
> How do AI fanboys explain telepathy and precognition ? In the case of 
> consciousness <> AI, telepathy and precognition are more easily 
> explainable, in the sense that consciousness being non-local, it can indeed 
> create cases in which spatially and temporally separated consciousness can 
> communicate. But in the case of local AIs, how can such phenomena have any 
> chance of being explained ? 
>

I doubt telepathy, but I do have a low-level precognition thought 
experiment handy:

In the typical EPR experiment setup, particle A goes one way, and particle 
B goes another way, to detector-A and detector-B respectively.

Now particles A and B are "entangled" (quantum-mechanically) , so that 
detector-B settings will stochastically influence what detector-A detects 
(and vice versa).

Now suppose detector-A is placed in a person's brain (not far away) in such 
a way that particle A (via detector-A) influences a neuron or two, but 
detector-B is light years (traveling distance) away. Can detector-B 
settings made years in the future influence what the person's neurons do in 
the present?

@philipthrift
 

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Re: My book "I Am" published on amazon

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 5/8/2019 11:28 PM, smitra wrote:

On 08-05-2019 21:55, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List wrote:

On 5/5/2019 7:06 PM, smitra wrote:
Or perhaps it's a mistake to attribute consciousness to particular 
physical systems. Instead of saying that this computer or that brain 
is or isn't conscious, we could postulate that there exists (in some 
sense) consciousness, and that consciousness can find itself in some 
location, and where it finds itself in, is implicitly defined by the 
content of the consciousness itself.


If we then consider the set of all conscious states, then each 
element of that set contains a subjective description of some 
conscious thought which also contains in it where and when this 
thought is supposed to have happened and who it belongs to. But that 
description of itself won't contain enough information to fully 
specify what precise algorithm generated it. My conscious thoughts 
won't contain all the information necessary to reconstruct my brain 
in the exact state it is now. This means that there are a large 
number of different physical systems that are each consistent with 
being me in the subjective state I'm in right now.


But I can still pin myself down to being in an environment that from 
a macroscopic point of view must look the same as what I'm seeing 
right now. There is then a large number of different physical local 
environments within which brains are located that can be said to 
represent me. I'm all of them, not one particular item. There is a 
one-to-one relationship between me getting more localized inside 
this set and me changing due to adding more information to my 
conscious state.


Systems that are a lot less complex than our brain obviously run 
much simpler algorithms than our brains are running. These 
algorithms with at best less awareness, would then not be able to 
localize themselves as precisely as we can. But since the state 
space of the computer is much smaller


State space of the computation or of the computer, the "mind" or the 
"brain".


, a question like: "is this AI conscious?" implies a far more 
precise localization of the AI's consciousness than in case of us.


Hmm.  I was with you up till that.  Your earlier said that the AI
being simpler would imply it was LESS localized in physical space,
which I agreed with.  Now you seem to say the opposite?



Yes, it's indeed going to be less localized but that would mean that 
it won't fit into the device we've set up. So, when we point to our 
device and imagine the conscious AI to be in there, it's not actually 
in that particular device we're looking at.


This coarse grained view goes a long way to address the problems 
implied by thought experiments where one replaces the transistors of 
the computer or the neurons of the brain by a devices that perform the 
exact same action as is actually happening in the instant the AI is 
supposed to feel something but would fail to perform the correct 
action in a counterfactual situation. You could then replace the brain 
by a recording of brain processes and that recording would then be 
conscious.


The problem is then with attempting to localize conscious in such a 
fine grained picture that's too small to accommodate the algorithm 
that is actually running. In a more course grained picture there do 
exist counterfactuals on nearby branches that the consciousness itself 
cannot resolve. So, in the MWI we should picture ourselves as being 
located on bundles of branches, not on single branches.


Right.  That's Julian Barbour's metaphor of streams in a channel. That 
means that "we" exist at the coarse grained level, like other 
quasi-classical stuff.  That was pretty much Bohr's point.  The 
classical world is necessarily where we exist and do science


Brent



Saibal




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Re: How do AI fanboys explain telepathy and precognition ?

['Brent Meeker' via Everything List]

On 5/11/2019 1:31 PM, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List wrote:

How do AI fanboys explain telepathy and precognition ?


Tell me what book I'm thinking of and I'll tell you how explain. 
However, I do forsee your failure (as does my laptop).


Brent

In the case of consciousness <> AI, telepathy and precognition are 
more easily explainable, in the sense that consciousness being 
non-local, it can indeed create cases in which spatially and 
temporally separated consciousness can communicate. But in the case of 
local AIs, how can such phenomena have any chance of being explained ?

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Re: for Cosmin

['Cosmin Visan' via Everything List]

But you are. Just not all the time.

On Saturday, 11 May 2019 14:07:13 UTC+3, Philip Thrift wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> If your consciousness is not attached to matter (your brain), you should 
> be able to do this.
>
> And report back!
>
> @philipthrift
>
>

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How do AI fanboys explain telepathy and precognition ?

['Cosmin Visan' via Everything List]

How do AI fanboys explain telepathy and precognition ? In the case of 
consciousness <> AI, telepathy and precognition are more easily 
explainable, in the sense that consciousness being non-local, it can indeed 
create cases in which spatially and temporally separated consciousness can 
communicate. But in the case of local AIs, how can such phenomena have any 
chance of being explained ? 

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Re: How separating mind from matter ruined mental health

[Philip Thrift]

On Saturday, May 11, 2019 at 10:20:46 AM UTC-5, John Clark wrote:
>
> On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 10:10 AM Philip Thrift  > wrote:
>  
>
>> > "Brain", "mind", "psyche" are nouns. [ Wiktionary ]
>>
>
> And my third grade English teacher said "I" was a pronoun, she was 
> entirely wrong. "I" is an adjective describing how atoms behave when they 
> are organized in a johnkclarkian way,  
>
> *> What word are you referring to as an adjective?*
>>
>
> My iMac dictionary says an adjective is a word or phrase naming an 
> attribute related to a noun that modifies or describes it. This time the 
> dictionary is correct. Mind, an adjective, describes what a brain, a noun, 
> does.
>
>  John K Clark
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>> "Mental" and even "brainial" (uncommon) are adjectives.
>> We talk about the *sun* and *solar activities* (like fusion, magnetic 
>> propagation, etc.) but we don't talk about solar activities distinct from 
>> the sun in any weird way, like people do with brain and mental activities 
>> (of the mind).
>>
>> @philipthrift
>>
>>
>>
 

If "I" is an adjective, so is "you".

You matter speaks strangely. 

@philipthrift 


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Re: How separating mind from matter ruined mental health

[John Clark]

On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 10:10 AM Philip Thrift 
wrote:


> > "Brain", "mind", "psyche" are nouns. [ Wiktionary ]
>

And my third grade English teacher said "I" was a pronoun, she was entirely
wrong. "I" is an adjective describing how atoms behave when they are
organized in a johnkclarkian way,

*> What word are you referring to as an adjective?*
>

My iMac dictionary says an adjective is a word or phrase naming an
attribute related to a noun that modifies or describes it. This time the
dictionary is correct. Mind, an adjective, describes what a brain, a noun,
does.

 John K Clark






> "Mental" and even "brainial" (uncommon) are adjectives.
> We talk about the *sun* and *solar activities* (like fusion, magnetic
> propagation, etc.) but we don't talk about solar activities distinct from
> the sun in any weird way, like people do with brain and mental activities
> (of the mind).
>
> @philipthrift
>
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Re: How separating mind from matter ruined mental health

[Philip Thrift]

On Saturday, May 11, 2019 at 8:36:00 AM UTC-5, John Clark wrote:
>
> On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 7:21 AM Philip Thrift  > wrote:
>
> > *That's a start to get away from the Cartesian delusion.*
>
>
> I agree it's silly to say mind has nothing to do with matter, but it's not 
> silly to say nouns are not the same as adjectives. Brain and mind do not 
> mean the same thing.
>

> John K Clark
>
>>
>>


"Brain", "mind", "psyche" are nouns. [ Wiktionary ]

What word are you referring to as an *adjective*?

"Mental" and even "brainial" (uncommon) are adjectives.

We talk about the *sun* and *solar activities* (like fusion, magnetic 
propagation, etc.) but we don't talk about solar activities distinct from 
the sun in any weird way, like people do with brain and mental activities 
(of the mind).

@philipthrift

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Re: How separating mind from matter ruined mental health

[John Clark]

On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 7:21 AM Philip Thrift  wrote:

> *That's a start to get away from the Cartesian delusion.*


I agree it's silly to say mind has nothing to do with matter, but it's not
silly to say nouns are not the same as adjectives. Brain and mind do not
mean the same thing.

John K Clark

>
>

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Re: How separating mind from matter ruined mental health

[Philip Thrift]

On Saturday, May 11, 2019 at 5:52:29 AM UTC-5, John Clark wrote:
>
> Separating mind from matter is no more ruinous than separating "fast" 
> from "racing car". Mind is what a brain does. 
>
>  John K Clark
>



"Mind" is one of those words that should be deprecated: 

The brain "does" (or processes) experiences, knowledge, intentions, ideas, 
... all that "mental" stuff.

In psychology, the *psyche* /ˈsaɪki/ is the totality of [what the brain 
"does"], conscious and unconscious.
[Wikipedia].

At least  "psyche" is not literally the word "mind". That's a start to get 
away from the Cartesian delusion.

@philipthrift






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Re: for Cosmin

[Philip Thrift]

If your consciousness is not attached to matter (your brain), you should be 
able to do this.

And report back!

@philipthrift



On Saturday, May 11, 2019 at 5:13:05 AM UTC-5, Cosmin Visan wrote:
>
> What does this has to do with the invented idea of "matter" ?
>
> On Friday, 10 May 2019 19:30:06 UTC+3, Philip Thrift wrote:
>>
>>
>> I tried astral projection [ 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astral_projection ] and unlike others here 
>> it doesn't work.
>>
>> @philipthrift
>>
>>

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Re: How separating mind from matter ruined mental health

[John Clark]

Separating mind from matter is no more ruinous than separating "fast" from
"racing car". Mind is what a brain does.

 John K Clark

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Re: The religion of AI

[John Clark]

On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 6:14 AM 'Cosmin Visan'  <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:


> *> There are lots of ways through which mind evolves.*
>

There is only one fundamental reason anything evolves, because of random
mutation and natural selection; one factor has a cause and one doesn't.

John K Clark






>
> On Friday, 10 May 2019 21:03:45 UTC+3, Brent wrote:
>>
>> So the mind evolves by rational acts of free will (maybe JKC will explain
>> what that means) but that free will is limited by "evolution".
>>
>> Brent
>>
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Re: The religion of AI

['Cosmin Visan' via Everything List]

There are lots of ways through which mind evolves.

On Friday, 10 May 2019 21:03:45 UTC+3, Brent wrote:
>
> So the mind evolves by rational acts of free will (maybe JKC will explain 
> what that means) but that free will is limited by "evolution".
>
> Brent
>

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Re: for Cosmin

['Cosmin Visan' via Everything List]

What does this has to do with the invented idea of "matter" ?

On Friday, 10 May 2019 19:30:06 UTC+3, Philip Thrift wrote:
>
>
> I tried astral projection [ 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astral_projection ] and unlike others here 
> it doesn't work.
>
> @philipthrift
>
>

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How separating mind from matter ruined mental health

[Philip Thrift]

https://aeon.co/ideas/how-the-dualism-of-descartes-ruined-our-mental-health
...
Nature was thereby drained of her inner life, rendered a deaf and blind 
apparatus of indifferent and value-free law, and humankind was faced with a 
world of inanimate, meaningless matter, upon which it projected its psyche 
– its aliveness, meaning and purpose – only in fantasy.
...
The bifurcation of mind and nature was at the root of immeasurable secular 
progress – medical and technological advance, the rise of individual rights 
and social justice, to name just a few. It also protected us all from being 
bound up in the inherent uncertainty and flux of nature. It gave us a 
certain omnipotence – just as it gave science empirical control over nature 
– and most of us readily accept, and willingly spend, the inheritance 
bequeathed by it, and rightly so.

In the face of an indifferent and unresponsive world that neglects to 
render our experience meaningful outside of our own minds – for 
nature-as-mechanism is powerless to do this – our minds have been left 
fixated on empty representations of a world that was once its source and 
being. All we have, if we are lucky to have them, are therapists and 
parents who try to take on what is, in reality, and given the magnitude of 
the loss, an impossible task.
...

"How did we ever get the notion of the mind as something distinct from the 
body? Why did this bad idea enter our culture?"
-- Richard Rorty
https://news.stanford.edu/news/2005/april13/rorty-041305.html


@philipthrift


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