Re: Losing Control

2013-04-01 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
be watching a movie produced by mollusks. I'm pointing out that your argument that nothing would matter if it were determined is false. Things matter greatly to us even when we (and even you) believe them to be determined. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed

Re: Losing Control

2013-04-03 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
an *identical* part. Rather, you obtain a part that is close enough - within engineering tolerance. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email

Re: Losing Control

2013-04-03 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
the normal causal chain. Absent this, you return to the default scientific position. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email

Re: Free-Will discussion

2013-04-04 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
will exists the first thing is to understand what is meant by the term. If it means I choose to do what I want I do then free will exists. If it means something else such as neither determined nor random then it doesn't exist. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you

Re: Free-Will discussion

2013-04-04 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
and present as self-evident, which it certainly is not. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr

Free-Will discussion

2013-04-05 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
: everything that happens in the universe is either determined or random. Conclusion: hence, consciousness is compatible with a deterministic or random universe. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything

Re: Free-Will discussion

2013-04-06 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
and almost everyone thinks that the world is either determined or random, since that comes from the normal definition of these words. The existence of God and the Devil does not follow from the definition of the words. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed

Re: Free-Will discussion

2013-04-07 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
determined or random. If you don't agree then you probably have a different understanding of these words. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

Re: Free-Will discussion

2013-04-08 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
, consciousness and free will when you are obviously just a machine made of atoms? This is not really an argument, it is rhetoric, but it is as good as your rhetoric. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group

Re: Free-Will discussion

2013-04-10 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything

Re: Losing Control

2013-04-10 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
, with true random events. The many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics restores determinism, but from the first person perspective reality is still probabilistic. Nevertheless, events at a biological scale appear as classical. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because

Re: Losing Control

2013-04-11 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
://qubit-ulm.com/2010/10/quantum-effects-in-ion-channels/ You do realise that quantum level effect are crucially important in the operation of the semiconductors in computers? -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group

Losing Control

2013-04-11 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
? Most interesting and important things in the world are epiphenomenal. There is no shame in this. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop

Re: Losing Control

2013-04-11 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
are epiphenomenal. There is no shame in this. But how can you explain the existence of epiphenomena? They violate physics. No they don't. An epiphenomenon is an emergent effect. The natural world is full of complexity and emergent phenomena. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you

Re: would I win the bet after all?

2013-04-11 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
studying schizophrenia means the researchers believes the patient's delusions. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-04-11 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
. Are you saying then that matter is random, or that it is neither random nor deterministic? Matter behaves randomly, but probability theory allows us to make predictions about random events. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups

Re: Hey look, a well written article...

2013-04-12 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
the article is about determinism and free will, it does not claim that determinism is incompatible with CONSCIOUSNESS, nor does it claim that determinism is impossible A PRIORI. These positions are yours alone. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed

Re: Why do particles decay randomly?

2013-04-12 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
either happen or they don't, and they are either determined or random. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list

Free-Will discussion

2013-04-13 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
of the new theory, But why should that be associated with consciousness? It's like looking for a creator of the universe. Who created the creator, and if he doesn't need creating then why does the universe need creating? -- Stathis Papaioannou -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message

Re: Can anyone explain this ?

2013-04-16 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
arise? Evolution should not be used for political or social agendas: that is committing the naturalistic fallacy. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails

Re: Can anyone explain this ?

2013-04-16 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
. Evolution should not be used for political or social agendas: that is committing the naturalistic fallacy. I agree. Craig -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop

Re: Can anyone explain this ?

2013-04-17 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
due to random quantum events. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post

Re: Can anyone explain this ?

2013-04-17 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
dedicated to this function. The particular language we speak ultimately depends on what random proto-language sounds came out and were associated with objects and concepts. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group

Re: Freedom From Choice is Easy

2013-04-17 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
experiences. You are begging the question by assuming that they cannot. You are saying that you know, a priori, that we are not living in a simulation now, but you have to explain how you know this. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups

Re: Freedom From Choice is Easy

2013-04-18 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
be used to support the impossibility of human consciousness. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr

Re: Improving The Hard Problem

2013-04-19 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
say that matter lacks aesthetic presence by definition, or anything in the universe lacks aesthetic presence by definition, and consciousness must therefore come from the spiritual realm. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups

Re: Improving The Hard Problem

2013-04-19 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
derived from it possibly have feelings? -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com

Re: Can anyone explain this ?

2013-04-19 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
intentionally to communicate feeling, thought, practical execution, etc. Randomness is a myth. But there seems no good reason why the same animal should be called chien in one part of the world, perro in another and dog in yet another. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because

Re: Rationals vs Reals in Comp

2013-04-27 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
computable (although it may still be contingently computable). But what evidence is there that real numbers are needed to simulate the brain? -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from

Re: Rationals vs Reals in Comp

2013-04-27 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
with discrete arithmetic. If we could not then computers would be useless for many of the things they are actually used for. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving

Re: On a peculiar blind spot in materialists

2013-05-27 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
differently rather than a substantive position. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com

RE: Parfit's token and type

2006-10-07 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
a study a while ago suggesting that turnover of synaptic structures was even more rapid, a matter of minutes, but I cannot find the reference. Stathis Papaioannou _ Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail. http://ideas.live.com

RE: Parfit's token and type

2006-10-08 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
, so why should I worry now? Stathis Papaioannou _ Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail. http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=5d21c51a-b161-4314-9b0e-4911fb2b2e6d

RE: Maudlin's argument

2006-10-13 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
running simultaneously on different machines or as separate processes run in parallel on the one machine, and the experience of a being running in a linear simulation as per the traditional view of time? Stathis Papaioannou

RE: Maudlin's argument

2006-10-14 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
another observer moment OM2 would also be implementing OM1. The conclusion would be that the relationship between QM states and OMs could be one-many. Stathis Papaioannou _ Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail. http

RE: Maudlin's argument

2006-10-15 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
also be implementing OM1. The conclusion would be that the relationship between QM states and OMs could be one-many. Stathis Papaioannou _ Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail. http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx

RE: Maudlin's argument

2006-10-15 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
the streams of OMs before and after the experiment; the after OM may be confused, but it is still a perfectly well defined OM. Stathis Papaioannou _ Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail. http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx

RE: Maudlin's argument

2006-10-15 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Peter Jones writes: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Russell Standish writes: If the same QM state is associated with different observer moments, you must be talking about some non-functionalist approach to consciousness. The QM state, by definition, contains all information

RE: Maudlin's argument

2006-10-16 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
to be the basis of consciousness, because it destroys the supervenience thesis as commonly understood. Stathis Papaioannou _ Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail. http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=5d21c51a-b161-4314

RE: Numbers, Machine and Father Ted

2006-10-19 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
, but an at times vicious dispute (well, as vicious as philosophers get). David Hume suggested that the best place for books on metaphysics was in the fire, and his successors including logical empiricists and analytic philosophers of the past century have generally tended to agree with him. Stathis

RE: Numbers, Machine and Father Ted

2006-10-19 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
physical hardware is needed to run it, why did you choose the UD to generate all the computations rather than just saying they are all run in parallel. There is enough room in Platonia for infinite parallel virtual machines, isn't there? Stathis Papaioannou

RE: Numbers, Machine and Father Ted

2006-10-20 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
when considering your replacement brain. Stathis Papaioannou _ Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail. http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=5d21c51a-b161-4314-9b0e-4911fb2b2e6d

RE: Numbers, Machine and Father Ted

2006-10-20 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
up against *conscious* algorithms, potentially conscious in the absence of any external input, interpreter or observer. If non-conscious algorithms are thus isolated it makes no difference whether they are run or not, but if they are conscious, it does make a difference - to them. Stathis

RE: Numbers, Machine and Father Ted

2006-10-22 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Bruno Marchal writes: Le 21-oct.-06, à 06:02, Stathis Papaioannou a écrit : Bruno Marchal writes: The UD is both massively parallel and massively sequential. Recall the UD generates all programs and executes them all together, but one step at a time. The D is for dovetailing

RE: Numbers, Machine and Father Ted

2006-10-23 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
to anchor the computations in the real world. You have to decide which of these explanations is the least incredible, and I don't think the correct answer really leaps out at you. Stathis Papaioannou _ Be one of the first to try

RE: Numbers, Machine and Father Ted

2006-10-23 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
that the universe/multiverse consists of nothing but mathematics. Stathis Papaioannou _ Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail. http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=5d21c51a-b161-4314-9b0e-4911fb2b2e6d

RE: Numbers, Machine and Father Ted

2006-10-24 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
. Of course this can be said in term of number of steps in computations (no need to invoke time). OK, I understand that point. Stathis Papaioannou _ Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail. http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx

RE: Numbers, Machine and Father Ted

2006-10-24 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
stream of consciousness. Nothing is changed if we say that we live only transiently, and the feeling that we persist as individuals through time is an illusion. Stathis Papaioannou _ Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail. http

RE: Numbers, Machine and Father Ted

2006-10-25 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
se does not solve the HP problem, unless we say that only the non-HP universes are instantiated, making multiverse narrower than all mathematically consistent universes. I gather that Tegmark's grand ensembles are not mainstream physics, even among those who accept the MWI. Stathis

RE: Numbers, Machine and Father Ted

2006-10-25 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
? It seems to me that it supports it. Stathis Papaioannou _ Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail. http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=5d21c51a-b161-4314-9b0e-4911fb2b2e6d

RE: Numbers, Machine and Father Ted

2006-10-26 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
for a second but uses multiple adjacent rooms You have to guess whether you are in experiment (a) or (b). If appropriate care is taken to provide you with no external clues do you think you would be able to guess the right answer with greater than 1/2 probability? Stathis Papaioannou

RE: Numbers, Machine and Father Ted

2006-10-26 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
David Nyman writes: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: (b) can't be right. However many copies of you there are, you only experience being one at a time. Stathis, I concur with this view, and for the reasons you give. However, much as I hate to complicate this issue further, I wonder

RE: Numbers, Machine and Father Ted

2006-10-27 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
was and remains me. If such an OM does exist, it will consider itself my successor regardless of whether I ever actually existed. Stathis Papaioannou _ Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail. http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx

RE: Numbers, Machine and Father Ted

2006-10-27 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Quentin Anciaux writes: Hi Stathis, Le Vendredi 27 Octobre 2006 12:16, Stathis Papaioannou a écrit : Here is another thought experiment. You are watching an object moving against a stationary background at a velocity of 10 m/s. Suddenly, the object seems to instantly jump 10 metres

RE: Numbers, Machine and Father Ted

2006-10-27 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
into position in each case by virtue of its content alone. Stathis Papaioannou From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Numbers, Machine and Father Ted Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 05:14:03 -0700 Stathis Papaioannou wrote

RE: Numbers, Machine and Father Ted

2006-10-27 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Brent meeker writes: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Peter Jones writes: I think it is simpler to go back to your own clones-in-the-next-room example rather than introducing the complication of neurophysiology (or indeed physics). You are informed that your current stream

RE: Numbers, Machine and Father Ted

2006-10-28 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Brent Meeker writes: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Brent meeker writes: That is not clear to me. Perhaps it turns on the meaning of content in an OM. Generally if my OM's are taken to be on the order of a second or longer, I think the order could be reconstructed from

RE: Numbers, Machine and Father Ted

2006-10-29 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
the right answer and if a log were kept, evidence of how it arrived at the answer. Do you believe that there must be some super-computation information in each femtosecond slice that binds them all together? Stathis Papaioannou

RE: Numbers, Machine and Father Ted

2006-10-30 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
calculator in the middle of multiplying two numbers would somehow forget what it was doing, or a perfect copy of a mechanical clock would show a different time or run at a different rate. Stathis Papaioannou _ Be one of the first to try

RE: Numbers, Machine and Father Ted

2006-10-30 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
exactly identical? Stathis Papaioannou _ Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail. http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=5d21c51a-b161-4314-9b0e-4911fb2b2e6d --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You

RE: Numbers, Machine and Father Ted

2006-10-30 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Peter jones writes: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Peter Jones writes: Here is another thought experiment. You are watching an object moving against a stationary background at a velocity of 10 m/s. Suddenly, the object seems to instantly jump 10 metres

RE: Numbers, Machine and Father Ted

2006-10-30 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Peter Jones writes: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: I think I see what you mean, but it's as much a problem for the intact and normally functioning brain as it is for teleportation experiments, isn't it? For that matter, it's as much a problem for a computer that gets teleported around

RE: Numbers, Machine and Father Ted

2006-10-30 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Brent Meeker writes: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: David Nyman writes: I think we're in agreement, Stathis, but I'm trying to focus on a problem, and what I think is a non-trivial aspect of evolved brain functionality that would be required to overcome it. Of course, I agree

RE: Numbers, Machine and Father Ted

2006-10-31 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
David Nyman writes: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: I think I see what you mean, but it's as much a problem for the intact and normally functioning brain as it is for teleportation experiments, isn't it? Yes, that's my point! I'm trying to argue that the brain has actually come up

RE: Numbers, Machine and Father Ted

2006-10-31 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Bruno Marchal writes: Le 30-oct.-06, à 14:15, Stathis Papaioannou wrote (in part): A computationalist would add that a computer analogue of a person would also have the same mental states, but this is more controversial. Is it really? With the notable couragous exception

RE: Numbers, Machine and Father Ted

2006-10-31 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
, even if such a model would be very difficult to implement. Stathis Papaioannou _ Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail. http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=5d21c51a-b161-4314-9b0e-4911fb2b2e6d

RE: Numbers, Machine and Father Ted

2006-11-07 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
theory, albeit one without any supporting evidence in its favour. Stathis Papaioannou _ Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail. http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=5d21c51a-b161-4314-9b0e-4911fb2b2e6d

RE: Numbers, Machine and Father Ted

2006-11-08 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
or experiments. This cannot be explained away by faith in the sense that one can have faith in the gravity god or a deist god (because no empirical finding counts for or against such beliefs): rather, it comes down to a matter of simultaneously believing x and not-x. Stathis Papaioannou

RE: Numbers, Machine and Father Ted

2006-11-10 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
on their beliefs because at bottom they are just based on blind faith, but given that they do not volunteer this to begin with, it shows them up as inconsistent and hypocritical. Stathis Papaioannou _ Be one of the first to try Windows

RE: Numbers, Machine and Father Ted

2006-11-10 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
invited to observe with little flashlights, so I guess someone will say that God *does* heal amputees. Stathis Papaioannou _ Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail. http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=5d21c51a

RE: Numbers, Machine and Father Ted

2006-11-10 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
it is impossible in principle to come up with such a test. That does not mean we are living in a block universe, but it does mean we would not know it if we were. Stathis Papaioannou _ Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail. http

RE: Numbers, Machine and Father Ted

2006-11-11 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
of whether there is a basis for saying some beliefs are true and others false. This does not just apply to religious beliefs but is at the basis of the theories espoused by the sort of secular academics shown up in recent years by the Sokal hoax. Stathis Papaioannou

RE: Natural Order Belief

2006-11-15 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
I'm curious: how many people on this list are theists? Stathis Papaioannou From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Natural Order Belief Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 22:52:22 -0800 Brent Meeker wrote: Tom Caylor wrote

RE: Natural Order Belief

2006-11-15 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
rose from his tomb after being crucified or Athena sprang from Zeus' head after Hephaestus struck it with an axe, and I would like to know this independently of whether it makes an interesting or inspiring story. Stathis Papaioannou

RE: Natural Order Belief

2006-11-16 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
years ago and the dinosaurs died out because they didn't fit on Noah's ark, you might be less keen to suggest anything that might be construed as supporting theism. Stathis Papaioannou Le 16-nov.-06, à 06:58, Stathis Papaioannou a écrit : I'm curious: how many people on this list

RE: UDA revisited

2006-11-18 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
a computation can run without physical hardware. Stathis Papaioannou _ Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail. http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=5d21c51a-b161-4314-9b0e-4911fb2b2e6d

RE: UDA revisited

2006-11-22 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
become really strange, with people thinking they're possessed, or thinking that their arms belong to someone else etc. That's true, but psychotic people are still conscious. Stathis Papaioannou _ Be one of the first to try Windows

RE: Natural Order Belief

2006-11-22 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
to attain absolute certainty about any empirical belief, but we can bet that some beliefs are much more likely to be true than others. Stathis Papaioannou Stathis: I try a 'funny' aspect. Not in Tom's rather utilitarian point (whether it is good or bad, making a person happy or inspired) but upon

RE: UDA revisited

2006-11-24 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
of an abstracted realm-X done in realm-Y can create realm-X phenomena. By extension it means 'arithmetic realism' of the classical platonic kind is false. It still isn't clear to me whether you believe it is possible for a digital computer to be conscious or not. Stathis Papaioannou

RE: Natural Order Belief

2006-11-24 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
delusional because (a) most reasonable people would see the conclusion he drew from the green fence, and the conviction with which he held it, as very dubious, and (b) he himself saw the conclusion as dubious after treatment with antipsychotic medication. Stathis Papaioannou Stathis: thanks

RE: UDA revisited

2006-11-24 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Colin Hales writes: I would predict extremely primitive phenomenal scenes to a single cell organism...Perhaps LIGHT/NOT-LIFGT...With causal efficacy. I think paramecium might operate this way. 'Phenomenal scenes' and 'abstraction from/via phenomenal scenes' are two independent axes of

RE: UDA revisited

2006-11-24 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
or that if it did find the regularities it would thereby be conscious? Stathis Papaioannou _ Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail. http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=5d21c51a-b161-4314-9b0e-4911fb2b2e6d

RE: UDA revisited

2006-11-25 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
people think that is because dogs are not smart enough rather than because they are not conscious. Similarly, our current machines may be able to perceive at a basic level, but they aren't smart enough to come up with scientific theories based on their perceptions. Stathis Papaioannou

RE: UDA revisited

2006-11-25 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
to simulate it, down to the quantum level if necessary, then how could it possibly not behave like a real paramecium? Stathis Papaioannou _ Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail. http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId

RE: UDA revisited

2006-11-26 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
of the propositions I make - just contextualises them inside a fascinating story. The point is a process that is definitely non-conscious, i.e. evolution, produces novel machines, some of which are themselves conscious at that. Stathis Papaioannou

RE: UDA revisited

2006-11-26 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
it is like to see? As far as the hard problem goes, Physics X (if there is such a thing) is no more of an advance than knowing which neurons fire when a subject has an experience. Stathis Papaioannou _ Be one of the first to try Windows

RE: UDA revisited

2006-11-27 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
with consequently difference in conscious state even though external behaviour is the same. Stathis Papaioannou _ Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail. http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=5d21c51a-b161-4314-9b0e

RE: UDA revisited

2006-11-28 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
not a question science can ever answer, even in principle. Stathis Papaioannou The hard problem is not that we haven't discovered the physics that explains consciousness, it is that no such explanation is possible. Whatever Physics X is, it is still possible to ask, Yes, but how can a blind

RE: UDA revisited and then some

2006-11-28 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Colin Hales writes: I think it is logically possible to have functional equivalence but structural difference with consequently difference in conscious state even though external behaviour is the same. Stathis Papaioannou Remember Dave Chalmers with his 'silicon replacement

RE: UDA revisited

2006-11-28 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Quentin Anciaux writes: Le Mardi 28 Novembre 2006 00:00, Stathis Papaioannou a écrit : Quentin Anciaux writes: But the point is to assume this nonsense to take a conclusion, to see where it leads. Why imagine a possible zombie which is functionnally identical if there weren't any

RE: The Totally Blind Zombie Homunculus Room

2006-11-29 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Colin, I think I am missing the main point: is the room + Marvin meant to be a zombie or not? Stathis Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 17:20:19 +1100 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: The Totally Blind Zombie Homunculus Room To:

RE: Hypostases (was: Natural Order Belief)

2006-11-29 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
as more concerned with rationality than religion and less anthropocentric than religion. Turning it around seems more a rhetorical ploy than a defensible position. Stathis Papaioannou _ Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail. http

RE: UDA revisited and then some

2006-12-01 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
experiences the same thing when it looks at the sky and declares it to be blue as you do before the substitution. Stathis Papaioannou _ Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail. http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=5d21c51a

RE: UDA revisited and then some

2006-12-01 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
of people might agree to have these replacement brains and no-one will ever know that they are committing suicide. Stathis Papaioannou From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: UDA revisited and then some Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 12:27:37 +0100 To: everything-list

RE: UDA revisited and then some

2006-12-02 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
. However, I don't know how such a thing could ever be proved or disproved. Stathis Papaioannou _ Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail. http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=5d21c51a-b161-4314-9b0e-4911fb2b2e6d

RE: Hypostases (was: Natural Order Belief)

2006-12-04 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
than religion and less anthropocentric than religion. Turning it around seems more a rhetorical ploy than a defensible position. Stathis Papaioannou Science has to take rationality by faith. Without a personal God both science and religion are anthropocentric because

RE: Hypostases (was: Natural Order Belief)

2006-12-04 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
to walking, talking humans, but then I'm still pretty impressed that my car can take me to places in quiet comfort while thousands of explosions are occurring in the engine. Stathis Papaioannou _ Be one of the first to try Windows Live

RE: UDA revisited and then some

2006-12-04 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Bruno Marchal writes: Le 02-déc.-06, à 06:11, Stathis Papaioannou a écrit : In addition to spectrum reversal type situations, where no change is noted from either 3rd or 1st person perspective (and therefore it doesn't really matter to anyone: as you say, it may be occurring all

RE: The Totally Blind Zombie Homunculus Room

2006-12-04 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
of fluff, that will be very interesting but it won't change my definition of or attitude towards the only reality I have ever known. Stathis Papaioannou _ Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail. http://ideas.live.com

RE: Hypostases (was: Natural Order Belief)

2006-12-04 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
, and it certainly does not warrant, for example, postulating that there is a deity overseeing electrical engineers in order to make them feel good about themselves. Stathis Papaioannou _ Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail

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