Re: Block Universes

2014-02-04 Thread LizR
On 5 February 2014 13:18, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: It's the easiest way to think about SR. And it works for GR too so long as you avoid closed time-like loops. But GR and QM seem to be inconsistent, so it's hard to say either one is a good candidate for what's real. I just

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-04 Thread ghibbsa
On Tuesday, February 4, 2014 7:04:49 AM UTC, Liz R wrote: On 4 February 2014 16:56, ghi...@gmail.com javascript: wrote: Thanks for all that. Very interesting. So what sort of implications would block time have for individual lives. Do they happen only onetime while their time is being

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-04 Thread LizR
On 5 February 2014 13:31, ghib...@gmail.com wrote: I'm presuming you don't mean blocktime directly predicts...but relativity. If so, I take your point obviously. If you meant blocktime directly, I'd love to hear the prediction. I meant relativity, but that *is *based around the concept of

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-03 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 02 Feb 2014, at 20:03, meekerdb wrote: On 2/2/2014 1:44 AM, LizR wrote: Someone asked how a block universe comes to exist and if it comes into existence all at once, or a bit at a time (or something like that). I wish I could find the original question, to make sure exactly what it

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-03 Thread Kim Jones
On 3 Feb 2014, at 7:00 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: I can imagine a semi-block universe in which, as you've often remarked, the past is a block and the universe keeps adding new moments and growing. This would be like Barbour's time capsules, except just sticking everything

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-03 Thread Bruno Marchal
inconsistency or similar meta-refutations. But things can occasionally be de-meta-ised as our knowledge improves. This happened for block universes with SR. The experimental evidence for space-time being a 4D manifold is the relativity of simultaneity. I assume that before this, the concept

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-03 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 03 Feb 2014, at 12:09, Kim Jones wrote: On 3 Feb 2014, at 7:00 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: I can imagine a semi-block universe in which, as you've often remarked, the past is a block and the universe keeps adding new moments and growing. This would be like Barbour's

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-03 Thread Kim Jones
On 4 Feb 2014, at 3:34 am, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: What did you mean by reading numbers? I imagine the UD as a kind of 'playhead' or 'read head' in a digital device that scans encoded information. The difference of course being that there is no output. The lack of output is

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-03 Thread ghibbsa
On Sunday, February 2, 2014 9:44:08 AM UTC, Liz R wrote: Someone asked how a block universe comes to exist and if it comes into existence all at once, or a bit at a time (or something like that). I wish I could find the original question, to make sure exactly what it was. But I haven't

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-03 Thread LizR
On 4 February 2014 11:48, ghib...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Liz, thanks for doing this thread, the history metaphor was also a great help. I wasn't clear what block time was and now I've got a better idea. Good, that was the point. A lot of people seemed to be attacking it on the basis of straw

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-03 Thread David Nyman
On 2 February 2014 18:53, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: I will come back on this when I have time Thanks. but - to continue my suggestions re SF stories - Flux by Michael Moorcock addresses the momentary frog question rather nicely. Philosophically, at least, it is always possible that we

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-03 Thread Jesse Mazer
On Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 5:48 PM, ghib...@gmail.com wrote: But more generically speaking, would this inference for blocktime sit at the edge of relativity or at its core. What I mean is, beyond that it is an implication of relativity, have there been or are there any prospects for developing

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-03 Thread LizR
I will try to precis Flux at some point - in the meantime, here are a few comments (Flux was written in 1963, by Moorcock and Barrington Bayley - my favourite fantasy and SF writers, respectively). `Flux' is a sardonic retelling of the H. G. Wells classic tale `The Time Machine'. In a near-future

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-03 Thread LizR
On 4 February 2014 12:23, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 5:48 PM, ghib...@gmail.com wrote: But more generically speaking, would this inference for blocktime sit at the edge of relativity or at its core. What I mean is, beyond that it is an implication of

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-03 Thread David Nyman
Ta very much :) On 3 February 2014 23:24, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: I will try to precis Flux at some point - in the meantime, here are a few comments (Flux was written in 1963, by Moorcock and Barrington Bayley - my favourite fantasy and SF writers, respectively). `Flux' is a sardonic

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-03 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Liz, You keep repeating your UNSUBSTANTIATED claim that both Newton and Einstein believed in block time. I've repeatedly asked you to substantiate this claim with some actual quotes from them but you have been unable to do so. Please provide quotes substantiating this or withdraw the claim.

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-03 Thread LizR
On 4 February 2014 12:44, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Liz, You keep repeating your UNSUBSTANTIATED claim that both Newton and Einstein believed in block time. It isn't a question of belief. Newtonian and Einsteinian machanics both imply the existence of a block universe. I've

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-03 Thread Jesse Mazer
On Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 6:29 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 4 February 2014 12:23, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 5:48 PM, ghib...@gmail.com wrote: But more generically speaking, would this inference for blocktime sit at the edge of relativity or at its

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-03 Thread Jesse Mazer
On Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 6:44 PM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Liz, You keep repeating your UNSUBSTANTIATED claim that both Newton and Einstein believed in block time. I've repeatedly asked you to substantiate this claim with some actual quotes from them but you have been unable to

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-03 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Liz, Liz, Liz! OK, now you ADMIT that neither Newton or Einstein believed in block time. Thanks! Your claim that their theories imply (thanks for using the soft imply rather than prove) block time is just your erroneous interpretation in an attempt to lend weight to your own belief. Your use

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-03 Thread LizR
On 4 February 2014 13:32, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 6:29 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: SR directly demonstrates block time via the relativity of simultaneity. This can be tested experimentally. The relativity of simultaneity is a claim about

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-03 Thread LizR
Oh dear, you really don't have a clue, do you? OK, that's it. I foolishly replied to one or two of your posts in the hope you'd magically grown up, but I can't be bothered with this level of willful ignorance and infantile nonsense. I'll let you get on with scoring imaginary points, and stick with

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-03 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Jesse, That's possible but it's only one quote and considering the circumstances it could have just been an attempt to provide comfort to the grieving family. Also Einstein is known to have spoken metaphorically at times and even to seemingly contradict himself on occasion (eg. on religious

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-03 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Liz, Talk about confirmation bias! It's SOP when a person can't come up with a real objective scientific rebuttal to an argument that they just flame and retreat. How awful it would be if facts and rational arguments changed their belief system! Goodness gracious, can't let that happen... :-)

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-03 Thread Jesse Mazer
On Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 8:28 PM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Jesse, That's possible but it's only one quote and considering the circumstances it could have just been an attempt to provide comfort to the grieving family. Also Einstein is known to have spoken metaphorically at times

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-03 Thread LizR
By the way, I just came across this rather amusing illustration of how SR leads to block space-time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rietdijk-Putnam_argument [image: Inline images 1] On 4 February 2014 16:34, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 8:28 PM, Edgar L. Owen

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-03 Thread ghibbsa
On Monday, February 3, 2014 11:11:18 PM UTC, Liz R wrote: On 4 February 2014 11:48, ghi...@gmail.com javascript: wrote: Hi Liz, thanks for doing this thread, the history metaphor was also a great help. I wasn't clear what block time was and now I've got a better idea. Good, that was

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-03 Thread Jesse Mazer
On Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 8:40 PM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Liz, Talk about confirmation bias! It's SOP when a person can't come up with a real objective scientific rebuttal to an argument that they just flame and retreat. How awful it would be if facts and rational arguments

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-03 Thread ghibbsa
On Monday, February 3, 2014 11:29:11 PM UTC, Liz R wrote: On 4 February 2014 12:23, Jesse Mazer laser...@gmail.com javascript:wrote: On Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 5:48 PM, ghi...@gmail.com javascript: wrote: But more generically speaking, would this inference for blocktime sit at the edge of

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-03 Thread ghibbsa
On Tuesday, February 4, 2014 12:19:42 AM UTC, Liz R wrote: On 4 February 2014 12:44, Edgar L. Owen edga...@att.net javascript:wrote: Liz, You keep repeating your UNSUBSTANTIATED claim that both Newton and Einstein believed in block time. It isn't a question of belief. Newtonian and

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-03 Thread Jesse Mazer
On Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 7:55 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 4 February 2014 13:32, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 6:29 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: SR directly demonstrates block time via the relativity of simultaneity. This can be tested

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-03 Thread meekerdb
On 2/3/2014 7:56 PM, ghib...@gmail.com wrote: I think what I'm realty asking is what is blocktime giving the world? It's giving us a deeper vision of reality (if true). But if it is objectively true, what purpose or utility does it serve, if any? It's a model. It gives us a picture to think

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-03 Thread ghibbsa
On Tuesday, February 4, 2014 12:19:42 AM UTC, Liz R wrote: On 4 February 2014 12:44, Edgar L. Owen edga...@att.net javascript:wrote: Liz, You keep repeating your UNSUBSTANTIATED claim that both Newton and Einstein believed in block time. It isn't a question of belief. Newtonian and

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-03 Thread meekerdb
On 2/3/2014 8:29 PM, ghib...@gmail.com wrote: Liz - I was just thinking. If Newton's world predicted a variant of blocktime. What is that saying, given Newton's world wasn't correct? Or was it based some aspect that is correct? But is the sense that blocktime comes out of newton's world,

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-03 Thread ghibbsa
On Tuesday, February 4, 2014 4:39:42 AM UTC, Brent wrote: On 2/3/2014 8:29 PM, ghi...@gmail.com javascript: wrote: Liz - I was just thinking. If Newton's world predicted a variant of blocktime. What is that saying, given Newton's world wasn't correct? Or was it based some aspect that

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-03 Thread meekerdb
On 2/3/2014 9:41 PM, ghib...@gmail.com wrote: So do you think block time is what is inferred as a reality by each of these space and time variants? You mean implied by? It doesn't imply anything about which is right, because it applies equally to all of them, just like we could label every

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-03 Thread LizR
On 4 February 2014 16:56, ghib...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks for all that. Very interesting. So what sort of implications would block time have for individual lives. Do they happen only onetime while their time is being actively blocked in? Or does blocktime exist statically as the end-to-end

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-03 Thread LizR
On 4 February 2014 17:06, ghib...@gmail.com wrote: On Monday, February 3, 2014 11:29:11 PM UTC, Liz R wrote: On 4 February 2014 12:23, Jesse Mazer laser...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 5:48 PM, ghi...@gmail.com wrote: But more generically speaking, would this inference for

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-03 Thread LizR
On 4 February 2014 17:11, ghib...@gmail.com wrote: On Tuesday, February 4, 2014 12:19:42 AM UTC, Liz R wrote: On 4 February 2014 12:44, Edgar L. Owen edga...@att.net wrote: Liz, You keep repeating your UNSUBSTANTIATED claim that both Newton and Einstein believed in block time. It

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-03 Thread LizR
On 4 February 2014 17:29, ghib...@gmail.com wrote: Liz - I was just thinking. If Newton's world predicted a variant of blocktime. What is that saying, given Newton's world wasn't correct? Or was it based some aspect that is correct? Well it clearly doesn't disprove that space and time form

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-03 Thread LizR
As Brent says we have to bear in mind that SR is a model of reality. The ontological status of its components is another question, as it is with every theory. Most physicists have assumed that either space-time really *is* a 4D manifold (Max Tegmark for instance), or it's something else that is

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-02 Thread LizR
Someone asked how a block universe comes to exist and if it comes into existence all at once, or a bit at a time (or something like that). I wish I could find the original question, to make sure exactly what it was. But I haven't managed to find it, and I can't spend all night trawling the forum

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-02 Thread Telmo Menezes
Hi Liz, Great avatar :) On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 10:44 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: Someone asked how a block universe comes to exist and if it comes into existence all at once, or a bit at a time (or something like that). I wish I could find the original question, to make sure exactly

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-02 Thread David Nyman
On 2 February 2014 03:42, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: To answer the question about the frogs. We imagine we are an extended frog because of memory; without it we really would be stuck in the present moment, a series of individual isolated moments - and completely unable to function, of

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-02 Thread LizR
I will come back on this when I have time, but - to continue my suggestions re SF stories - Flux by Michael Moorcock addresses the momentary frog question rather nicely. Philosophically, at least, it is always possible that we ARE just momentary frogs. On 3 February 2014 03:19, David Nyman

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-02 Thread meekerdb
On 2/2/2014 1:44 AM, LizR wrote: Someone asked how a block universe comes to exist and if it comes into existence all at once, or a bit at a time (or something like that). I wish I could find the original question, to make sure exactly what it was. But I haven't managed to find it, and I

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-02 Thread LizR
to rely more on logical inconsistency or similar meta-refutations. But things can occasionally be de-meta-ised as our knowledge improves. This happened for block universes with SR. The experimental evidence for space-time being a 4D manifold is the relativity of simultaneity. I assume that before

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-02 Thread meekerdb
) consequences, and being open to refutation. I assume as we get more into interpretation and general meta-ness, refutation comes to rely more on logical inconsistency or similar meta-refutations. But things can occasionally be de-meta-ised as our knowledge improves. This happened for block universes

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-01 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, February 1, 2014 2:05:34 AM UTC-5, Liz R wrote: There seems to be a bit of confusion about this idea. Some people on the list seem to abhor the idea of a block universe, but when they attack the concept, they invariably go for straw men, making statements like change can't

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-01 Thread David Nyman
On 1 February 2014 07:05, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: Everything we observe takes place in a manner that can be placed within a space-time continuum such that a god's eye view (or the relevant equations) would see it as static. But of course *we* don't see it like that. This appears to be

Re: Block Universes

2014-02-01 Thread LizR
On 2 February 2014 04:44, David Nyman da...@davidnyman.com wrote: On 1 February 2014 07:05, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: Everything we observe takes place in a manner that can be placed within a space-time continuum such that a god's eye view (or the relevant equations) would see it as

Block Universes

2014-01-31 Thread LizR
There seems to be a bit of confusion about this idea. Some people on the list seem to abhor the idea of a block universe, but when they attack the concept, they invariably go for straw men, making statements like change can't happen in a block universe (which are obviously nonsense, or Einstein et

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