The missing agent of materialism
Hi John Clark IMHO everything that happens happens for a reason. The reason can be physical or IMHO mental. The former is not free will, the latter has some possibility of being free to some extent, that is to say, to be self-intentioned. My claim is that self-intentioned acts are the products of intelligence. Which is IMHO why life, intelligence and free will are inseparable. Only living entities can perform self-intentioned choices or acts. Now self-intentioned acts require, obviously, an agent, a self, meaning that which intends to act or does act. In Leibniz's metaphysics, the self is a monad. Materialism does not seem to have such an agent. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/12/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: John Clark Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-11, 13:14:54 Subject: Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at? Roger Clough wrote: Free Will-- You need enough freedom My difficulty with the free will noise is not the will part, you want to do some things and don't want to do others and that's clear, my difficulty is with the free part; and all you're saying is that free will is a will that is free so that does not help me. to make a choice of your own. A choice made for a reason or a choice made for no reason; it's deterministic or it's random. ? Strictly speaking, I prefer the term self-determination meaning by anything inside your skin. And that thing inside your skin that made you choose X rather than Y came to be there for a reason (memory, your DNA, environmental factors, etc)? or it came to be inside your skin for no reason at all in which case it was random. I still have absolutely no idea what the free will noise is supposed to mean and a very much doubt that you or anybody else does either; and yet despite not having the slightest idea of what it means they will continue to passionately believe it. Weird. I neither believe nor disbelieve in free will.? ? John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: The missing agent of materialism
On Friday, October 12, 2012 8:15:42 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi John Clark IMHO everything that happens happens for a reason. The reason can be physical or IMHO mental. Ok, but why are there any 'reasons' to begin with? If there can be reasons which did not exist before, then something must be able to create new reasons. We are one of those things. We can create our own reasons by clutching a bundle of sub-personal reasons and tying them together with a strand of super-personal reasons and harness that rope for *our own personal reason* which is not reducible to either sub, super, or impersonal exteriors. This is free will, or at least will with degrees of freedom. Craig The former is not free will, the latter has some possibility of being free to some extent, that is to say, to be self-intentioned. My claim is that self-intentioned acts are the products of intelligence. Which is IMHO why life, intelligence and free will are inseparable. Only living entities can perform self-intentioned choices or acts. Now self-intentioned acts require, obviously, an agent, a self, meaning that which intends to act or does act. In Leibniz's metaphysics, the self is a monad. Materialism does not seem to have such an agent. Roger Clough, rcl...@verizon.net javascript: 10/12/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: John Clark Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-11, 13:14:54 Subject: Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at? Roger Clough wrote: Free Will-- You need enough freedom My difficulty with the free will noise is not the will part, you want to do some things and don't want to do others and that's clear, my difficulty is with the free part; and all you're saying is that free will is a will that is free so that does not help me. to make a choice of your own. A choice made for a reason or a choice made for no reason; it's deterministic or it's random. ? Strictly speaking, I prefer the term self-determination meaning by anything inside your skin. And that thing inside your skin that made you choose X rather than Y came to be there for a reason (memory, your DNA, environmental factors, etc)? or it came to be inside your skin for no reason at all in which case it was random. I still have absolutely no idea what the free will noise is supposed to mean and a very much doubt that you or anybody else does either; and yet despite not having the slightest idea of what it means they will continue to passionately believe it. Weird. I neither believe nor disbelieve in free will.? ? John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.comjavascript:. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com javascript:. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/Notvj624mi0J. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: The missing agent of materialism
Hi Craig Weinberg There's no proof, only a very reasonable expectation. Science could not work if things happened for no reason. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/12/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-12, 08:56:38 Subject: Re: The missing agent of materialism On Friday, October 12, 2012 8:15:42 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi John Clark IMHO everything that happens happens for a reason. The reason can be physical or IMHO mental. Ok, but why are there any 'reasons' to begin with? If there can be reasons which did not exist before, then something must be able to create new reasons. We are one of those things. We can create our own reasons by clutching a bundle of sub-personal reasons and tying them together with a strand of super-personal reasons and harness that rope for *our own personal reason* which is not reducible to either sub, super, or impersonal exteriors. This is free will, or at least will with degrees of freedom. Craig The former is not free will, the latter has some possibility of being free to some extent, that is to say, to be self-intentioned. My claim is that self-intentioned acts are the products of intelligence. Which is IMHO why life, intelligence and free will are inseparable. Only living entities can perform self-intentioned choices or acts. Now self-intentioned acts require, obviously, an agent, a self, meaning that which intends to act or does act. In Leibniz's metaphysics, the self is a monad. Materialism does not seem to have such an agent. Roger Clough, rcl...@verizon.net 10/12/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: John Clark Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-11, 13:14:54 Subject: Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at? Roger Clough wrote: Free Will-- You need enough freedom My difficulty with the free will noise is not the will part, you want to do some things and don't want to do others and that's clear, my difficulty is with the free part; and all you're saying is that free will is a will that is free so that does not help me. to make a choice of your own. A choice made for a reason or a choice made for no reason; it's deterministic or it's random. ? Strictly speaking, I prefer the term self-determination meaning by anything inside your skin. And that thing inside your skin that made you choose X rather than Y came to be there for a reason (memory, your DNA, environmental factors, etc)? or it came to be inside your skin for no reason at all in which case it was random. I still have absolutely no idea what the free will noise is supposed to mean and a very much doubt that you or anybody else does either; and yet despite not having the slightest idea of what it means they will continue to passionately believe it. Weird. I neither believe nor disbelieve in free will.? ? John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/Notvj624mi0J. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: The missing agent of materialism
On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 , Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: IMHO everything that happens happens for a reason. Opinions, humble or otherwise, really don't count for much, the universe will continue doing what it is doing regardless of your opinion; and modern physics tells us that it is EXTREMELY unlikely that everything that happens happens for a reason. But for the sake of argument let's assume you're correct, then you are as deterministic a cuckoo clock. The reason can be physical or IMHO mental. It makes perfect sense to say I picked X and not Y just because I wanted to, in that case there was a reason for me doing what I did just as there was a reason for the cuckoo clock doing what it did. And because everything happens for a reason then there must be a reason I wanted to pick X not Y. Which is IMHO why life, intelligence and free will are inseparable. It's astonishing how so many people say that free will is of central importance and yet not one of them can give a coherent explanation of what the hell it's supposed to mean. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
