Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-04-04 Thread John Mikes
Brent: right on! It all seems to me that we have no fitting meanings (whatver) of memory, identity, forgetting, recalling and the entire vocabulary we apply to things unknown. We only think so. The fact that Bruno puts equationally expressed formulations (numbers) to it does not make it more

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-04-03 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
2009/4/3 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: But if you're going to derive physics from consciousness you need to explain what connects across the gap - why is it still you.  I appreciate that part of the answer is memories, although Bruno seems to think they are inessential.  But even if

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-04-03 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/4/3 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: But if you're going to derive physics from consciousness you need to explain what connects across the gap - why is it still you. I appreciate that part of the answer is memories, although Bruno seems to think

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-04-03 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 02 Apr 2009, at 13:23, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/4/2 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be: I would say that if you are at a fork where one version of you loses all memories and another does not, then you will find yourself going down the no memory loss path. At which point? Also,

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-04-03 Thread John Mikes
Brent, I read this discussion and 'try' not to get involved (never succeedG). * Ourselves w/wout our memories? what else? These terms come from the ancient religious fable about a 'soul' - the person in the faith-domain. Even the old Indians made 'reincarnation' hazy without memories and the only

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-04-03 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
2009/4/4 Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com: I have been using the term memories to include more than just long term memories. For example, I have a feeling of being me which persists from moment to moment. Even though I can't put this feeling into words, I would know immediately if

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-04-03 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
2009/4/4 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: The probability that I go from state A to state B is given by the number of computations going from A to B. The problem with amnesic teleportation, that is teleportation with partial amnesia in the reconstituted person, is that it introduce a

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-04-03 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/4/4 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: The probability that I go from state A to state B is given by the number of computations going from A to B. The problem with amnesic teleportation, that is teleportation with partial amnesia in the reconstituted

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-04-02 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
2009/4/2 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be: I would say that if you are at a fork where one version of you loses all memories and another does not, then you will find yourself going down the no memory loss path. At which point? Also, why is it that we din't survive them to the continuation

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-04-02 Thread Brent Meeker
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/4/2 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be: I would say that if you are at a fork where one version of you loses all memories and another does not, then you will find yourself going down the no memory loss path. At which point? Also, why is it that we

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-04-01 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/3/31 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be Hello Quentin, Le 30-mars-09, à 20:03, Quentin Anciaux a écrit : 2009/3/30 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 30 Mar 2009, at 17:03, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Hi, 2009/3/30 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be Hi Kelly, and others, Well,

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-04-01 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
2009/4/1 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be: A historian could come along and argue for one reason and another that the Middle Ages should not be considered to have ended until the year 1800, and although we might disagree with him we can't say that he is wrong in the same way he would be

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-04-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 01 Apr 2009, at 11:30, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2009/3/31 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be Hello Quentin, Le 30-mars-09, à 20:03, Quentin Anciaux a écrit : 2009/3/30 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 30 Mar 2009, at 17:03, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Hi, 2009/3/30 Bruno Marchal

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-04-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 31 Mar 2009, at 19:06, Brent Meeker wrote: Yet they assume we are our bodies; otherwise duplicating the body wouldn't duplicate the self. We just bet on a level such that the self is incarnate in a digital way by the body. Suppose the duplication were performed this way. You

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-04-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 01 Apr 2009, at 12:39, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/4/1 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be: A historian could come along and argue for one reason and another that the Middle Ages should not be considered to have ended until the year 1800, and although we might disagree with him we

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-03-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
Le 30-mars-09, à 22:05, Kelly a écrit : Well, thanks for your report. Did you smoke the extract? It usually last for 4 minutes. It is amazing it did last so long with you, I know only one case of an experience lasting 20 minutes. I used this liquid extract stuff. Very good! You hold

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-03-31 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
2009/3/31 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be: It does indeed present conceptual difficulties. The problem is that our notion of personal identity is dependent on the world in which we evolved, where these duplication experiments don't happen. The conceptual difficulties vanish if we say that

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-03-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
Hello Quentin, Le 30-mars-09, à 20:03, Quentin Anciaux a écrit : 2009/3/30 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 30 Mar 2009, at 17:03, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Hi, 2009/3/30 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be Hi Kelly, and others, Well, thanks for your report. Did you smoke the extract? It

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-03-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 31 Mar 2009, at 12:34, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/3/31 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be: It does indeed present conceptual difficulties. The problem is that our notion of personal identity is dependent on the world in which we evolved, where these duplication experiments don't

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-03-31 Thread Brent Meeker
Bruno Marchal wrote: Hello Quentin, Le 30-mars-09, à 20:03, Quentin Anciaux a écrit : 2009/3/30 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be On 30 Mar 2009, at 17:03, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Hi, 2009/3/30 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be Hi Kelly,

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-03-30 Thread Bruno Marchal
Hi Kelly, and others, Well, thanks for your report. Did you smoke the extract? It usually last for 4 minutes. It is amazing it did last so long with you, I know only one case of an experience lasting 20 minutes. I am happy you found your experience interesting. You can consult and discuss

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-03-30 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
2009/3/30 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Hi Kelly, and others, Well, thanks for your report. Did you smoke the extract? It usually last for 4 minutes. It is amazing it did last so long with you, I know only one case of an experience lasting 20 minutes. I am happy you found your

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-03-30 Thread Quentin Anciaux
Hi, 2009/3/30 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be Hi Kelly, and others, Well, thanks for your report. Did you smoke the extract? It usually last for 4 minutes. It is amazing it did last so long with you, I know only one case of an experience lasting 20 minutes. I am happy you found your

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-03-30 Thread Brent Meeker
Bruno Marchal wrote: Hi Kelly, and others, Well, thanks for your report. Did you smoke the extract? It usually last for 4 minutes. It is amazing it did last so long with you, I know only one case of an experience lasting 20 minutes. I am happy you found your experience interesting. You

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-03-30 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 30 Mar 2009, at 14:02, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/3/30 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Hi Kelly, and others, Well, thanks for your report. Did you smoke the extract? It usually last for 4 minutes. It is amazing it did last so long with you, I know only one case of an

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-03-30 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 30 Mar 2009, at 17:03, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Hi, 2009/3/30 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be Hi Kelly, and others, Well, thanks for your report. Did you smoke the extract? It usually last for 4 minutes. It is amazing it did last so long with you, I know only one case of an experience

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-03-30 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 30 Mar 2009, at 18:23, Brent Meeker wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: Hi Kelly, and others, Well, thanks for your report. Did you smoke the extract? It usually last for 4 minutes. It is amazing it did last so long with you, I know only one case of an experience lasting 20 minutes. I am

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-03-30 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2009/3/30 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 30 Mar 2009, at 17:03, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Hi, 2009/3/30 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be Hi Kelly, and others, Well, thanks for your report. Did you smoke the extract? It usually last for 4 minutes. It is amazing it did last so long with

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-03-30 Thread Brent Meeker
Bruno Marchal wrote: On 30 Mar 2009, at 14:02, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 2009/3/30 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Hi Kelly, and others, Well, thanks for your report. Did you smoke the extract? It usually last for 4 minutes. It is amazing it did last so long with you, I

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-03-30 Thread Brent Meeker
Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2009/3/30 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be On 30 Mar 2009, at 17:03, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Hi, 2009/3/30 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be Hi Kelly, and others, Well, thanks for

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-03-30 Thread John Mikes
Stathis: (in your text): ...or an unrelated person's consciousness...??? I agree with you when you say: losing all memories erases your personality (consciousnessless state) - but where do you pick that 'unrelted person's one, which also can only based on that 'unrelated person's' memory etc.

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-03-30 Thread Kelly
Well, thanks for your report. Did you smoke the extract? It usually last for 4 minutes. It is amazing it did last so long with you, I know only one case of an experience lasting 20 minutes. I used this liquid extract stuff. You hold it in your mouth for several minutes to get it into your

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-03-28 Thread John Mikes
, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Hi Johnathan, Kim, Stathis I agree with you Johnathan. Scientists learn a lot from extreme cases, and altered states of consciousness is worth to study, even to understand better what is a normal (if that exists) states of consciousness. Now remember

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-03-28 Thread Kelly
I tried Salvia for the first time yesterday. Very similar to dreaming, but more intense, with a lot more sounds. At first I thought, Nothing's happening. Then I thought, I seem to be about to slide sidewise...I need to stop. Then, I was sitting somewhere...in a tilled field I think, and I

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-03-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
of altered states of consciousness. These altered states may be arrived at in a variety of ways (meditation, religious practices, psychoactive substances), but the use of drugs to achieve them appears to be the way most amenable to controlled, scientific study. Yet there is very little

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-03-27 Thread Kim Jones
On 28/03/2009, at 4:46 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Some hallucinogens go even further than this, and introduce an element of amnesia for semantic and episodic memories, such that users report the experience of forgetting that I had taken a drug, that I was human, or even what being human

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-03-26 Thread John Mikes
: On 23/03/2009, at 7:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: And why does plant constructs altered states of consciousness molecules? In my opinion it has all to do with the incredibly complex relationships that plant have with animals, in general, and insects in particular. Many plants have

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-03-25 Thread Kim Jones
On 23/03/2009, at 7:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: And why does plant constructs altered states of consciousness molecules? In my opinion it has all to do with the incredibly complex relationships that plant have with animals, in general, and insects in particular. Many plants have to detract

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-03-25 Thread Bruno Marchal
I agree with you Johnathan. Scientists learn a lot from extreme cases, and altered states of consciousness is worth to study, even to understand better what is a normal (if that exists) states of consciousness. Now remember that our brain seems to generate already by itself a numerous

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-03-23 Thread John Mikes
extreme cases, and altered states of consciousness is worth to study, even to understand better what is a normal (if that exists) states of consciousness. Now remember that our brain seems to generate already by itself a numerous of different naturally, or self-altered, consciousness states

Re: Altered states of consciousness

2009-03-22 Thread Bruno Marchal
Hi Johnathan, Kim, Stathis I agree with you Johnathan. Scientists learn a lot from extreme cases, and altered states of consciousness is worth to study, even to understand better what is a normal (if that exists) states of consciousness. Now remember that our brain seems to generate