Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-26 Thread John Clark
Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: For 2 things to be in the same macrostate small changes to the microstate must make no difference the way the things behave at the largest scale First you say Macrostates are defined only in terms of a set of *present* microstates and then you give a

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-24 Thread John Clark
On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 6:41 PM, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: So, you admit you were wrong to object to my statement even with reversible laws there is more than one way to get into a given MACROstate? No, sometimes that would be true but because of chaos it wouldn't always be. For

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-22 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 21 Mar 2014, at 22:30, Jesse Mazer wrote: On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 21 Mar 2014, at 20:17, Jesse Mazer wrote: On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 3:00 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On 18 Mar 2014, at 22:33, LizR wrote: Am I

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-22 Thread LizR
One thing about the Game of Life - in the real world it *is* in fact reversible, assuming physics is. Only the ideal, abstract, Platonic GOL isn't. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-22 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 6:00 PM, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: Chaos theory tells us that even in classical physics a change in a micro state can soon lead to a change in the macro state. And if it's a reversible theory then there are NOT 2 different states of the universe that could

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-22 Thread meekerdb
On 3/22/2014 10:52 AM, John Clark wrote: I'm saying that in classical physics a state can produce only one future state, but any given state can have been produced in more than one way, This is only true if you equivocate on state. If state means microstate of a closed system (in either

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-21 Thread John Clark
On 18 Mar 2014, at 22:33, LizR wrote: Am I right in assuming that in a quantum mechanical universe you can trace the history backwards? Absolutely not because in Quantum mechanics 2 very different states can evolve into the exact same state. John K Clark -- You received this message

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-21 Thread Jesse Mazer
On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 3:00 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On 18 Mar 2014, at 22:33, LizR wrote: Am I right in assuming that in a quantum mechanical universe you can trace the history backwards? Absolutely not because in Quantum mechanics 2 very different states can evolve

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-21 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 21 Mar 2014, at 20:17, Jesse Mazer wrote: On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 3:00 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On 18 Mar 2014, at 22:33, LizR wrote: Am I right in assuming that in a quantum mechanical universe you can trace the history backwards? Absolutely not because in

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-21 Thread Jesse Mazer
On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 21 Mar 2014, at 20:17, Jesse Mazer wrote: On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 3:00 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On 18 Mar 2014, at 22:33, LizR wrote: Am I right in assuming that in a quantum mechanical

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-21 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 21 Mar 2014, at 20:00, John Clark wrote: On 18 Mar 2014, at 22:33, LizR wrote: Am I right in assuming that in a quantum mechanical universe you can trace the history backwards? Absolutely not because in Quantum mechanics 2 very different states can evolve into the exact same state.

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-20 Thread John Clark
Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com Wrote: you made a sweeping statement that If there are 2 different states of the universe that could have produced things as they are now then the laws of physics are not reversible. Yes I said that and is one of the most non-controversial things I ever

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-20 Thread meekerdb
On 3/20/2014 9:10 AM, John Clark wrote: The fact remains that if Entropy is proportional to the logarithm of the number of microstates something can be in and still have the same macrostate then it's also proportional to the logarithm of the number of ways the thing could have been produced

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-20 Thread meekerdb
On 3/20/2014 9:10 AM, John Clark wrote: WHY?? How would it change anything about how we imagine the world works? Regardless of what English word you call it if X is proportional to the logarithm of the number of microstates something can be in and still have the same macrostate then X is also

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-20 Thread LizR
On 21 March 2014 05:10, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com Wrote: you made a sweeping statement that If there are 2 different states of the universe that could have produced things as they are now then the laws of physics are not reversible. Yes I

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-19 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 18 Mar 2014, at 16:14, John Clark wrote: And I'm the one who is supposed to be confused??? There is not one drop of Quantum Mechanics or probability in the Game of Life, it is 100% classical mechanics, and yet there CAN be 2 or more ways to get to a given macrostate. It's 100%

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-19 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 18 Mar 2014, at 22:33, LizR wrote: Am I right in assuming that in a quantum mechanical universe you can trace the history backwards? In God's eye only. Not from inside the universe, especially that from inside, you will find your self belonging to some special term of the universal

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-19 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 19 Mar 2014, at 01:57, meekerdb wrote: On 3/18/2014 5:07 PM, LizR wrote: On 19 March 2014 12:47, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: But in general that would mean knowing the state of everything the system had interacted with in the past, since it is now entangled with them. So even

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-19 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Brent. Correct to a point and those networks of entanglement form the basis of my theory of how space arises piecewise from quantum events that no one here is interested in exploring even though it resolves all quantum paradox and shows how to unify QT and GR. Ah, well, there is always the

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-19 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Brent, If information is not being lost then the amount of information in the universe is increasing at a tremendous rate as new events occur, and has been since the beginning. So where is all that new information being stored? How can ever increasing amounts of information be being stored in

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-19 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 12:54 PM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Brent, If information is not being lost then the amount of information in the universe is increasing at a tremendous rate as new events occur, and has been since the beginning. So where is all that new information being

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-19 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Telmo, No, compression is totally unable to explain the storage of total information in a universe which continually doubles its amount of information from one Planck time to the next and continually adds that amount to the cumulative total. Edgar On Wednesday, March 19, 2014 8:17:28 AM

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-19 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 19 Mar 2014, at 12:54, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Presumably you do agree that information can't just float around somehow without actually being encoded in actual matter states? This contradicts your statement that the physical arises from the computational. But you have not yet define

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-19 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 1:25 PM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Telmo, No, compression is totally unable to explain the storage of total information in a universe which continually doubles its amount of information from one Planck time to the next and continually adds that amount to

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-19 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 4:45 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: In the present state and the physical transition rules from one state to another ? if the transition is reversible then from only the current state you can infer the past state, without it being encoded in the present

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-19 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 4:33 PM, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Telmo, No, that was Brent's claim. I'm asking him to tell us how it works. Where is all that additional information about past states stored if he thinks none of it is lost? Edgar, One thing is to claim that no

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-19 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Telmo, No, that was Brent's claim. I'm asking him to tell us how it works. Where is all that additional information about past states stored if he thinks none of it is lost? Edgar On Wednesday, March 19, 2014 10:32:48 AM UTC-4, telmo_menezes wrote: On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 1:25 PM,

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-19 Thread Edgar L. Owen
Bruno, Well I'm using loose language to make it easier to understand. Actually it is the information itself that represents what are then interpreted by humans and science as matter states My point being that the information forms that manifest as matter states in human internal mental

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-19 Thread Quentin Anciaux
In the present state and the physical transition rules from one state to another ? if the transition is reversible then from only the current state you can infer the past state, without it being encoded in the present state... the current state + transition rule is enough. Quentin 2014-03-19

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-19 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 19 Mar 2014, at 16:32, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Bruno, Well I'm using loose language to make it easier to understand. Actually it is the information itself that represents what are then interpreted by humans and science as matter states OK, but then that information flows around,

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-19 Thread LizR
On 19 March 2014 22:41, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 18 Mar 2014, at 22:33, LizR wrote: Am I right in assuming that in a quantum mechanical universe you can trace the history backwards? In God's eye only. Not from inside the universe, especially that from inside, you will

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-19 Thread LizR
On 20 March 2014 00:54, Edgar L. Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Brent, If information is not being lost then the amount of information in the universe is increasing at a tremendous rate as new events occur, and has been since the beginning. So where is all that new information being stored?

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-19 Thread LizR
On 19 March 2014 13:57, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: There's a couple of nice papers about this by Yasunori Nomura: arXiv:1205.267v2 is a popular exposition and arXiv:1205.5550v2 is a more technical paper. Thanks again! The for dummies one is fascinating, I like the relativisation

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-19 Thread meekerdb
On 3/19/2014 8:45 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: In the present state and the physical transition rules from one state to another ? if the transition is reversible then from only the current state you can infer the past state, without it being encoded in the present state... the current state +

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-19 Thread Quentin Anciaux
To whom are you answering ? It seems it is to Edgar... you should not cite a message when you want to answer to another one... Regards, Quentin 2014-03-19 22:46 GMT+01:00 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net: On 3/19/2014 8:45 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: In the present state and the physical

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-19 Thread LizR
On 20 March 2014 12:23, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: To whom are you answering ? It seems it is to Edgar... you should not cite a message when you want to answer to another one... He is replying to Edgar, as you can see from the line at the *bottom *of the quoted section. But I

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-19 Thread ghibbsa
On Tuesday, March 18, 2014 3:14:48 PM UTC, John Clark wrote: Jesse, somehow our conversation has bifurcated into 2 quite different topics, environmental concerns and fundamental physics, today I'll just talk about the physics. On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 8:05 PM, Jesse Mazer

Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-18 Thread John Clark
Jesse, somehow our conversation has bifurcated into 2 quite different topics, environmental concerns and fundamental physics, today I'll just talk about the physics. On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 8:05 PM, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com wrote: I already addressed your confusion about the

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-18 Thread meekerdb
On 3/18/2014 8:14 AM, John Clark wrote: Jesse, somehow our conversation has bifurcated into 2 quite different topics, environmental concerns and fundamental physics, today I'll just talk about the physics. On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 8:05 PM, Jesse Mazer laserma...@gmail.com

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-18 Thread LizR
Am I right in assuming that in a quantum mechanical universe you can trace the history backwards? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-18 Thread Jesse Mazer
Yes, if you have the exact present quantum state and you're assuming the normal quantum rules for continuous wavefunction evolution, you can determine the past quantum state. The answer might change if you assume that there's an objective physical reality to the collapse of wavefunction with

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-18 Thread LizR
OK, thanks. PS I realise that wavefunction collapse involves information loss and creates a fundamental time asymmetry, but I was under the impression that's the only place in QM that those things can occur - hence Stephen Hawking famously losing a bet (I thnk the prize was an encyclopaedia). So

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-18 Thread meekerdb
But in general that would mean knowing the state of everything the system had interacted with in the past, since it is now entangled with them. So even if you suppose there is no collapse of the wavefunction, decoherence has the same effect. Brent On 3/18/2014 2:52 PM, Jesse Mazer wrote:

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-18 Thread LizR
On 19 March 2014 12:47, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: But in general that would mean knowing the state of everything the system had interacted with in the past, since it is now entangled with them. So even if you suppose there is no collapse of the wavefunction, decoherence has the

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-18 Thread meekerdb
On 3/18/2014 5:07 PM, LizR wrote: On 19 March 2014 12:47, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: But in general that would mean knowing the state of everything the system had interacted with in the past, since it is now entangled with them. So even if you

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-18 Thread LizR
Thanks. I couldn't find the exact references. Is this the popular one? http://arxiv.org/abs/1205.2675 On 19 March 2014 13:57, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 3/18/2014 5:07 PM, LizR wrote: On 19 March 2014 12:47, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: But in general that would

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-18 Thread meekerdb
On 3/18/2014 6:13 PM, LizR wrote: Thanks. I couldn't find the exact references. Is this the popular one? http://arxiv.org/abs/1205.2675 Yep, that's it. Sorry, I left a digit off. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To

Re: Entropy and curved spacetime

2014-03-18 Thread LizR
On 19 March 2014 14:16, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 3/18/2014 6:13 PM, LizR wrote: Thanks. I couldn't find the exact references. Is this the popular one? http://arxiv.org/abs/1205.2675 Yep, that's it. Sorry, I left a digit off. Odd. According to QM that should be