Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-04-04 Thread Skeletori
I also think that free will is a meaningless concept, for many reasons. Like, let's say I'm in situation X and can choose A or B. What is it that could make me choose differently in an otherwise identical situation? Presumably my will. But the will has to be part of me to be my free will, thus I'm

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-19 Thread Bruno Marchal
Marty, Can you clarify the origins of the Lobian Machine? Does it arise out of the theorem of Hugo Martin Lob? Yes. I have often explained that theorem, years ago on this list (and elsewhere) and I can have opportunities to explain it again. You can see some of my

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-19 Thread m.a.
Subject: Re: Free will: Wrong entry. Marty, Can you clarify the origins of the Lobian Machine? Does it arise out of the theorem of Hugo Martin Lob? Yes. I have often explained that theorem, years ago on this list (and elsewhere) and I can have opportunities

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-18 Thread m.a.
@googlegroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 1:30 PM Subject: Re: Free will: Wrong entry. On 17 Mar 2010, at 14:06, m.a. wrote: But is there a deliberate feedback (of any kind) between first person and UD? No. The UD can be seen as a set of elementary arithmetical truth, realizing

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-17 Thread m.a.
- Original Message - From: Bruno Marchal To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 2:29 PM Subject: Re: Free will: Wrong entry. Or, are you saying here that choices made by the (3rd person) UD tend to be influenced by one's

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Mar 2010, at 14:06, m.a. wrote: But is there a deliberate feedback (of any kind) between first person and UD? No. The UD can be seen as a set of elementary arithmetical truth, realizing through their many proofs, the many computations. It is the least block-universe fro the

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Mar 2010, at 02:55, m.a. wrote: Bruno, Another plea for understanding. For clarity I will delete some questions from previous pages leaving only the ones that continue to puzzle me, in bold type. By computer I assume you're referring here to the arithmetical

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-16 Thread m.a.
- Original Message - From: Bruno Marchal To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:13 AM Subject: Re: Free will: Wrong entry. On 16 Mar 2010, at 02:55, m.a. wrote: Bruno How can there be indeterminacy in comp when

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Mar 2010, at 16:17, m.a. wrote: By 3-determinacy I assume you mean 3rd person determinacy. Yes. It is the content of the diary of an experimenter, teleporting some rabbits or guinea pig, perhaps human. As opposed to the first person view, which is the one described by the rabbits,

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-15 Thread m.a.
, 2010 1:45 AM Subject: Re: Free will: Wrong entry. For a computer the input is man; for the brain the input might be God, chance, spirits or what have you. Both for the computer and man, the inputs are given by their most probable universal neighbor, emerging from a competition among

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 14 Mar 2010, at 06:55, Brent Meeker wrote: I could have said associated or attributed instead of attached. To say that a brain is conscious is a category error. My brain is not conscious (no more than a rock). The person who has that brain can be said to be conscious. So how does a

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-14 Thread Mark Buda
Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com writes: So how does a person have a brain? Why does a computation need one? To the Hindu, for example, God didn't create the universe, but God became the universe. Then he forgot that he became the universe. Why would God do this? Basically, for

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-13 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 12 Mar 2010, at 21:53, m.a. wrote: I agree with you that quantum indeterminacy doesn't affect (free) will: Quantum mechanics is local and deterministic, and explains why it seems indeterministic to the 99,...% of the observers. (3/12/2010 7:58 AM), which is why I

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-13 Thread m.a.
: Bruno Marchal To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 6:37 AM Subject: Re: Free will: Wrong entry. On 12 Mar 2010, at 21:53, m.a. wrote: I agree with you that quantum indeterminacy doesn't affect (free) will: Quantum mechanics is local

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-13 Thread L.W. Sterritt
Bruno, Would you comment on C.S.Soon et al, Unconscious determinants of free decisions in the human brain, Nature Neuroscience, 11, 543 - 545 (2008) ? In this paper, the split second becomes 10 seconds. Sorry if this has been addressed before in this list. William On Mar 13, 2010,

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-13 Thread Bruno Marchal
more, but it is already a lot. Bruno - Original Message - From: Bruno Marchal To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 6:37 AM Subject: Re: Free will: Wrong entry. On 12 Mar 2010, at 21:53, m.a. wrote: I agree with you that quantum

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-13 Thread Bruno Marchal
Hi William, OK I found it on the net: http://www.socialbehavior.uzh.ch/teaching/semsocialneurosciencespring09/Haynes_NatNeurosci_2008_ext.pdf But my comment will consist in repeating what I am always saying about free will or free decision. The existence of free acts has nothing to do with

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-13 Thread L.W. Sterritt
Bruno, Thanks for your reply. Are your papers on your web site? William On Mar 13, 2010, at 10:55 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Hi William, OK I found it on the net: http://www.socialbehavior.uzh.ch/teaching/semsocialneurosciencespring09/Haynes_NatNeurosci_2008_ext.pdf But my comment will

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-13 Thread Brent Meeker
On 3/13/2010 10:55 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Hi William, OK I found it on the net: http://www.socialbehavior.uzh.ch/teaching/semsocialneurosciencespring09/Haynes_NatNeurosci_2008_ext.pdf But my comment will consist in repeating what I am always saying about free will or free decision. The

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-13 Thread m.a.
Please see questions below (in bold). - Original Message - From: Bruno Marchal To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 12:40 PM Subject: Re: Free will: Wrong entry. On 13 Mar 2010, at 16:00, m.a. wrote: Bruno, Thanks

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-13 Thread Bruno Marchal
William, On 13 Mar 2010, at 20:11, L.W. Sterritt wrote: Thanks for your reply. Are your papers on your web site? Yes. Most of them, except the first (pre-internet papers), and the lasts. The simplest in english is the one downloadable at:

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-13 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 13 Mar 2010, at 23:15, Brent Meeker wrote: On 3/13/2010 10:55 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Hi William, OK I found it on the net: http://www.socialbehavior.uzh.ch/teaching/semsocialneurosciencespring09/Haynes_NatNeurosci_2008_ext.pdf But my comment will consist in repeating what I am always

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-13 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 14 Mar 2010, at 03:35, m.a. wrote: Please see questions below (in bold). On 13 Mar 2010, at 16:00, m.a. wrote: Bruno, Thanks to your lucid explanation I begin to glimpse the beauty of comp. Please check my reasoning here. If materialism is correct, the brain can be

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-13 Thread Brent Meeker
On 3/13/2010 9:17 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 13 Mar 2010, at 23:15, Brent Meeker wrote: On 3/13/2010 10:55 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Hi William, OK I found it on the net: http://www.socialbehavior.uzh.ch/teaching/semsocialneurosciencespring09/Haynes_NatNeurosci_2008_ext.pdf But my comment

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-12 Thread Bruno Marchal
Hi Brent, We have discussed this a long time ago. Ah, perhaps it was on the FOR list. Free-will can only diminish when indeterminacy is added. It is a product of awareness of ignorance on oneself, that an high level construct. I appreciate infinitely both Kochen and Conway, but on free

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-12 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 11 Mar 2010, at 23:14, Brent Meeker wrote: On 3/11/2010 1:56 PM, m.a. wrote: - Original Message - From: Brent Meeker To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:38 PM Subject: Re: Free will: Wrong entry. On 3/11/2010 1:26 PM, m.a. wrote: Bruno

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-12 Thread m.a.
- Original Message - From: Bruno Marchal To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 7:51 AM Subject: Re: Free will: Wrong entry. Hi Brent, We have discussed this a long time ago. Ah, perhaps it was on the FOR list. Free-will can only

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-12 Thread Bruno Marchal
Marty, I think the question, Do you believe in free will? could as easily be, Do you believe in Santa Claus or God or Fate and on and on. We loudly assert: I do what I want!! But without considering the factors that influence (determine?) our wants and desires. No.I don't suppose I

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-12 Thread m.a.
- Original Message - From: Bruno Marchal To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 11:54 AM Subject: Re: Free will: Wrong entry. Marty, I think the question, Do you believe in free will? could as easily be, Do you believe in Santa Claus

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-12 Thread Brent Meeker
On 3/12/2010 4:51 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Hi Brent, We have discussed this a long time ago. Ah, perhaps it was on the FOR list. Free-will can only diminish when indeterminacy is added. It is a product of awareness of ignorance on oneself, that an high level construct. I appreciate infinitely

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-12 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 12 Mar 2010, at 18:34, m.a. wrote: What sort of short cut are you talking about? I don't see any short cuts here. I can see where people will find reasons afterwards to justify their decisions by consulting conscience and notions of good and bad, but that's all a posterior.

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-12 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 12 Mar 2010, at 18:57, Brent Meeker wrote: On 3/12/2010 4:51 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Hi Brent, We have discussed this a long time ago. Ah, perhaps it was on the FOR list. Free-will can only diminish when indeterminacy is added. It is a product of awareness of ignorance on oneself,

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-12 Thread Brent Meeker
On 3/12/2010 11:51 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 12 Mar 2010, at 18:57, Brent Meeker wrote: On 3/12/2010 4:51 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Hi Brent, We have discussed this a long time ago. Ah, perhaps it was on the FOR list. Free-will can only diminish when indeterminacy is added. It is a

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-12 Thread John Mikes
Brent: why should I accept opinions of (even respected!) scientists? I asked YOUR opinion. Old (ancient) savants based their conclusions on a much smaller cognitive inventory of the world than what epistemy provided up-to-date. Furthermore the basic worldview they think 'in' is mostly different

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-12 Thread m.a.
- Original Message - From: Bruno Marchal To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 2:49 PM Subject: Re: Free will: Wrong entry. On 12 Mar 2010, at 18:34, m.a. wrote: What sort of short cut are you talking about? I don't see any short cuts

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-12 Thread L.W. Sterritt
: - Original Message - From: Bruno Marchal To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 2:49 PM Subject: Re: Free will: Wrong entry. On 12 Mar 2010, at 18:34, m.a. wrote: What sort of short cut are you talking about? I don't see any short cuts here. I can see where

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-12 Thread Brent Meeker
*Sent:* Friday, March 12, 2010 2:49 PM *Subject:* Re: Free will: Wrong entry. On 12 Mar 2010, at 18:34, m.a. wrote: What sort of short cut are you talking about? I don't see any short cuts here. I can see where people will find reasons afterwards to justify

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-11 Thread m.a.
Bruno and John, The confusion is my fault. I copied the URL from a Kurzweil page heading when I should have gone to the article itself, so the wrong feature appeared. This is the one I requested comments about: http://www.physorg.com/news186830615.html (Excerpts)

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-11 Thread Brent Meeker
On 3/11/2010 1:26 PM, m.a. wrote: *Bruno and John,* * The confusion is my fault. I copied the URL from a Kurzweil page heading when I should have gone to the article itself, so the wrong feature appeared. This is the one I requested comments about:*

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-11 Thread m.a.
- Original Message - From: Brent Meeker To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:38 PM Subject: Re: Free will: Wrong entry. On 3/11/2010 1:26 PM, m.a. wrote: Bruno and John, The confusion is my fault. I

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-11 Thread Brent Meeker
On 3/11/2010 1:56 PM, m.a. wrote: - Original Message - *From:* Brent Meeker mailto:meeke...@dslextreme.com *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com *Sent:* Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:38 PM *Subject:* Re: Free will: Wrong

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-11 Thread John Mikes
Brent, nice statement: * But it's certainly not a deterministic universe * ** I have to take your word, because the reference you gave said: * NOT FOUND* So what kind of a 'universe' is it? bootstrap, self reflecting autodidacta? Creator-made? John M ** ** On 3/11/10, Brent Meeker

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-11 Thread Brent Meeker
My apologies. I forgot that Lawrence National Laboratories no longer hosted the physics archive. I should have cited: http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0604079 The Free Will Theorem Authors: John Conway http://arxiv.org/find/quant-ph/1/au:+Conway_J/0/1/0/all/0/1, Simon Kochen

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-11 Thread m.a.
- Original Message - From: Brent Meeker To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 5:14 PM Subject: Re: Free will: Wrong entry. On 3/11/2010 1:56 PM, m.a. wrote: - Original Message - From: Brent Meeker To: everything

Re: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-11 Thread Bruno Marchal
I am a compatibilist. Free will necessitates determinism. It makes people choosing to do what their want, notably when choosing between alternatives. But they cannot choose what they want. This depends on many factors. Free will is a high level phenomenon. Adding indeterminacy is

RE: Free will: Wrong entry.

2010-03-11 Thread Stephen P. King
Marchal Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 12:00 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Free will: Wrong entry. I am a compatibilist. Free will necessitates determinism. It makes people choosing to do what their want, notably when choosing between alternatives. But they cannot choose what