Re: LIGO has ​already found another Gravitational Wave

2019-04-09 Thread Lawrence Crowell
On Tuesday, April 9, 2019 at 7:33:01 AM UTC-5, John Clark wrote:
>
> LIGO has only been back on for a few days but already they have detected a 
> new gravitational wave from a Black Hole merger slightly under 5 billion 
> light years away.  They've decided to stop most of the secrecy and report 
> things as soon as they find them, so they haven't finished calculating how 
> massive they were yet. 
>
> Just after turning back on another wave found 
> <https://www.newscientist.com/article/2199107-ligo-has-spotted-another-gravitational-wave-just-after-turning-back-on/>
>
> John K Clark
>

Given the distance these may be pretty massive BHs.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2199107-ligo-has-spotted-another-gravitational-wave-just-after-turning-back-on/

LC

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LIGO has ​already found another Gravitational Wave

2019-04-09 Thread John Clark
LIGO has only been back on for a few days but already they have detected a
new gravitational wave from a Black Hole merger slightly under 5 billion
light years away.  They've decided to stop most of the secrecy and report
things as soon as they find them, so they haven't finished calculating how
massive they were yet.

Just after turning back on another wave found
<https://www.newscientist.com/article/2199107-ligo-has-spotted-another-gravitational-wave-just-after-turning-back-on/>

John K Clark

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As of today LIGO and VIRGO are back online

2019-04-01 Thread John Clark
LIGO and Virgo gravitational wave detectors are back online
<https://www.sciencenews.org/article/ligo-and-virgo-gravitational-wave-detectors-are-back>

John K Clark

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Re: LIGO

2019-04-01 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 7:01 AM Lawrence Crowell <
goldenfieldquaterni...@gmail.com> wrote:

*>  I am going to think about this. The problem I see is that LIGO detects
> information in a gravity wave and converts that into our electronic
> information. If this information really drops as 1/r then from a Gauss' law
> perspective it means a gravitational wave propagating from its source
> produces information a the rate I(t) ~ r, for r the radius of the wave
> front. I have some problems with that.*


I don't see the problem with transferring information that way, you could
even do it with light although with a different method than LIGO's. The
inverse square law applies only for isotropic emitters, so with a perfect
zero divergent Laser beam the intensity of the beam would be constant and
independent of distance. Of course a real Laser will always have some
divergence and the intensity is proportional to the width of the beam, so
if it went far enough eventually it would start to follow the inverse
square law, but that distance could be large even by cosmological
standards. Blazars are a especially bright type of Quasar and some have
been spotted over 10 billion light years away. But Quasars are not
isotropic emitters and it is now thought that Blazars are fundamentally no
different from regular Quasars it's just that Blazars are so positioned
that we just happen to be looking straight down the throat of the Quasar's
beam.

LIGO gets around the inverse square law in a entirely different way, it
doesn't detect the RMS power of a wave it detects the peak to peak
displacement of a wave.

John K Clark

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Re: LIGO

2019-04-01 Thread Lawrence Crowell
I am going to think about this. The problem I see is that LIGO detects 
information in a gravity wave and converts that into our electronic 
information. If this information really drops as 1/r then from a Gauss' law 
perspective it means a gravitational wave propagating from its source 
produces information a the rate I(t) ~ r, for r the radius of the wave 
front. I have some problems with that.

LC

On Sunday, March 31, 2019 at 5:30:31 PM UTC-6, John Clark wrote:
>
> On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 5:06 PM Lawrence Crowell  > wrote:
>
> >> Yes but LIGO detects the peak to peak displacement of a wave not its 
>>> power or energy as cameras and radios do. And that means LIGO's ability to 
>>> detect wave producing things is reduced with distance much more slowly than 
>>> with telescopes that deal with electromagnetic waves. Peak-to peak 
>>> displacement is proportional to the Root Mean Square of the wave and the 
>>> RMS is proportional to the square root of the power. So if there is 4 times 
>>> less power in the gravitational wave (because the source is twice as far 
>>> away) the peak to peak displacement is only reduced by a factor of 2.
>>>
>>  
>
> > I guess you will have to give a reference on this.
>>
>
> From LIGO's website:  
>
> https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/page/facts 
>
> "*improvements will ultimately make LIGO's interferometers 10 times more 
> sensitive than their initial incarnation. A 10-fold increase in sensitivity 
> means that LIGO will be able to detect gravitational waves 10 times farther 
> away than Initial LIGO, which translates into 'sampling' 1000-times more 
> volume of space (volume increases with the cube of the distance. So 10 
> times farther away means 10x10x10=1000 times the volume of space)"*
>
> From: 
>
> https://dcc.ligo.org/public//P070082/004/P070082-v4.pdf
>
> "the gravitational wave field strength is proportional to the second time 
> derivative of the quadrupole moment of the source, and it falls off in 
> amplitude inversely with distance from the source"
>
> From:
>
> https://archive.briankoberlein.com/2016/02/19/how-close-is-too-close/
>
>
> *"**The amount of shift caused by a gravitational wave is due to its 
> amplitude, not its energy. While the energy of gravitational waves follow 
> the inverse square relation, the amplitude of gravitational waves follows 
> the inverse distance relation. In other words, if we were half as far away 
> from the merger we’d have seen four times the energy, but only twice the 
> shift."*
>
> And note that it is the shift that LIGO detect not energy. 
>
> > I can see in one sense what you are saying about RMS, but I don't think 
>> your quite correct still. The interferometer measures a quadrupole 
>> displacemement.
>>
>
> That just means as one leg of LIGO is moved to a maximum distance the 
> other leg is moved to a minimum distance, and the difference between the 
> maximum and minimum is what causes interference in the Laser beam that LIGO 
> detects. Needless to say that is not the way a radio receiver works and is 
> not way film detects light either.   
>
>  John K Clark  
>
>
>

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Re: LIGO

2019-03-31 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 5:06 PM Lawrence Crowell <
goldenfieldquaterni...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Yes but LIGO detects the peak to peak displacement of a wave not its
>> power or energy as cameras and radios do. And that means LIGO's ability to
>> detect wave producing things is reduced with distance much more slowly than
>> with telescopes that deal with electromagnetic waves. Peak-to peak
>> displacement is proportional to the Root Mean Square of the wave and the
>> RMS is proportional to the square root of the power. So if there is 4 times
>> less power in the gravitational wave (because the source is twice as far
>> away) the peak to peak displacement is only reduced by a factor of 2.
>>
>

> I guess you will have to give a reference on this.
>

>From LIGO's website:

https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/page/facts

"*improvements will ultimately make LIGO's interferometers 10 times more
sensitive than their initial incarnation. A 10-fold increase in sensitivity
means that LIGO will be able to detect gravitational waves 10 times farther
away than Initial LIGO, which translates into 'sampling' 1000-times more
volume of space (volume increases with the cube of the distance. So 10
times farther away means 10x10x10=1000 times the volume of space)"*

From:

https://dcc.ligo.org/public//P070082/004/P070082-v4.pdf

"the gravitational wave field strength is proportional to the second time
derivative of the quadrupole moment of the source, and it falls off in
amplitude inversely with distance from the source"

From:

https://archive.briankoberlein.com/2016/02/19/how-close-is-too-close/


*"**The amount of shift caused by a gravitational wave is due to its
amplitude, not its energy. While the energy of gravitational waves follow
the inverse square relation, the amplitude of gravitational waves follows
the inverse distance relation. In other words, if we were half as far away
from the merger we’d have seen four times the energy, but only twice the
shift."*

And note that it is the shift that LIGO detect not energy.

> I can see in one sense what you are saying about RMS, but I don't think
> your quite correct still. The interferometer measures a quadrupole
> displacemement.
>

That just means as one leg of LIGO is moved to a maximum distance the other
leg is moved to a minimum distance, and the difference between the maximum
and minimum is what causes interference in the Laser beam that LIGO
detects. Needless to say that is not the way a radio receiver works and is
not way film detects light either.

 John K Clark

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Re: LIGO

2019-03-31 Thread Lawrence Crowell
On Sunday, March 31, 2019 at 8:23:02 AM UTC-6, John Clark wrote:
>
> On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 8:43 AM Lawrence Crowell  > wrote:
>  
>
>> > An antenna or any receiver of electromagnetic waves in effect measures 
>> the displacement of electrons or equivalently a current is produced.
>>
>
> A radio receiver detects the power in a AC circuit, and that is the Root 
> Mean Square voltage times the Root Mean Square current. Unlike LIGO 
> radios don't detect peak to peak values.
>
> > A gravitational wave is measured according to strain, but a strain 
>> through distance has an energy content as well.
>>
>
> Yes but LIGO detects the peak to peak displacement of a wave not its power 
> or energy as cameras and radios do. And that means LIGO's ability to detect 
> wave producing things is reduced with distance much more slowly than with 
> telescopes that deal with electromagnetic waves. Peak-to peak displacement 
> is proportional to the Root Mean Square of the wave and the RMS is 
> proportional to the square root of the power. So if there is 4 times less 
> power in the gravitational wave (because the source is twice as far away) 
> the peak to peak displacement is only reduced by a factor of 2.
>

I guess you will have to give a reference on this. I looked at some 
references and I can't find anything on what you say here:

https://labcit.ligo.caltech.edu/~dhs/Adv-LIGO/old/interferometric-gray-paper.pdf

https://labcit.ligo.caltech.edu/~dhs/Adv-LIGO/old/interferometric-gray-paper.pdf
 
I can see in one sense what you are saying about RMS, but I don't think 
your quite correct still. The interferometer measures a quadrupole 
displacemement. There is the quadrupole tensor Q = 3d_id_j - d^2δ_{ij}, 
where fields are Q_{ij}/r^4. The distance to the source is r and the 
distance between the two inspiralling black holes is d. The displacement is 
given by the metric g_{ab} = δ_{ab} + h_{ab} for the ++ and xx 
polarizations. The ++ polarization metric will be h_{++} = 2d_+^2/r^2, for 
r the distance to the source, and the curvature is R_++ = ½h_{++}R = 
d_{++}/r^4. The Einstein space criterion the metric proportional to the 
Ricci curvature and the metric giving the displacement means the 
displacement is ~ 1/r^2.

LC


> > So gravitational waves have intensities that drops with the square of 
>> the distance
>
>
> I'm not disputing that, but that fact is not inconsistent with the fact 
> that LIGO's ability to detect gravitational wave sources only decreases 
> linearly with distance because with LIGO the key thing is peak to peak 
> displacement of the wave not its intensity.
>
> John K Clark
>
>
>
>
>>

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Re: LIGO

2019-03-31 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 8:43 AM Lawrence Crowell <
goldenfieldquaterni...@gmail.com> wrote:


> > An antenna or any receiver of electromagnetic waves in effect measures
> the displacement of electrons or equivalently a current is produced.
>

A radio receiver detects the power in a AC circuit, and that is the Root
Mean Square voltage times the Root Mean Square current. Unlike LIGO radios
don't detect peak to peak values.

> A gravitational wave is measured according to strain, but a strain
> through distance has an energy content as well.
>

Yes but LIGO detects the peak to peak displacement of a wave not its power
or energy as cameras and radios do. And that means LIGO's ability to detect
wave producing things is reduced with distance much more slowly than with
telescopes that deal with electromagnetic waves. Peak-to peak displacement
is proportional to the Root Mean Square of the wave and the RMS is
proportional to the square root of the power. So if there is 4 times less
power in the gravitational wave (because the source is twice as far away)
the peak to peak displacement is only reduced by a factor of 2.

> So gravitational waves have intensities that drops with the square of the
> distance


I'm not disputing that, but that fact is not inconsistent with the fact
that LIGO's ability to detect gravitational wave sources only decreases
linearly with distance because with LIGO the key thing is peak to peak
displacement of the wave not its intensity.

John K Clark




>

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Re: LIGO

2019-03-31 Thread Lawrence Crowell
On Saturday, March 30, 2019 at 8:32:53 AM UTC-6, John Clark wrote:
>
> On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 8:05 PM Lawrence Crowell  > wrote:\
>  
>
>> > Weak gravitational waves are very similar to electromagnetic waves,
>>
>
> From a practical point of view there are 2 differences:
>
> 1) Our ability to detect electromagnetic waves decreases with the square 
> of the distance, but LIGO's ability to detect gravitational waves only 
> decreases linearly with distance because unlike film or CCD cameras LIGO 
> does not detect the energy in the wave it detects the displacement the wave 
> produces. 
>

An antenna or any receiver of electromagnetic waves in effect measures the 
displacement of electrons or equivalently a current is produced. This is 
associated by Maxwell's equation by electric and magnetic fields with 
energy. A gravitational wave is measured according to strain, but a strain 
through distance has an energy content as well.

Let us think about very weak gravitational waves. The metric for weak 
gravitational fields is a flat space metric plus a perturbing particular

g_{ab} = η_{ab} - h_{ab}.

This perturbing metric has 10 independent elements. We now eliminate the 
diagonal elements from the metric h_{ab} with a trace condition, which 
leaves only 6 independent variables. 

The Christoffel symbols are

Γ^a_{bc} = ½g^{ad}(∂_cg_{db} + ∂_bg_{dc} - ∂_dg_{bc}),

Where linear in the perturbing term this is

Γ^a_{bc} = ½(∂_ch^a_b + ∂_bh^d_c - ∂^ah_{bc}).

Now we compute the Riemann curvature tensor and eliminate the Γ^2 terms as 
O(h^2) and so we have

R^a_{bcd} = ∂_cΓ^a_{bd} - ∂_dΓ^a_{bc}

∂_b∂_ch^a_d - ∂^a∂_ch_{bd} + ∂^a∂_dh_{bc} - ∂_b∂_dh^a_c.

The first line above should look familiar for anyone who knows 
electromagnetic theory as a commutator of coordinates on a differential and 
gauge connection. 

The Einstein field equation may be written as R_{ab} - ½Rg_{ab} = 
8πGT_{ab}, as well as the form R_{ab} = 8πG(T_{ab}  - ½ Tg_{ab}) where the 
Ricci curvature and Ricci curvature scalar are computed with a lot of 
contraction on indices to get

□h_{ab} + ∂_a∂_bh - ∂_a∂_ch^c_b - ∂_a∂_ch^c_b = 8πG(2T_{ab} - ½ Tg_{ab}).

That is a complicated looking differential equation, but it is 
underdetermined. This equation has 6 variables and we need to eliminate 4 
of them. Now this requires a gauge-like condition as with electromagnetism. 
The standard one is Γ^a_{bc}g^{bc} = 0. which in our linearized gravity 
contains first order derivatives of h_{ab}. This looks similar to the 
Coulomb or Lorentz gauge in electromagnetism. This gauge condition is then 
∂^bh_{ab} = ½∂_ah and this eliminates lots of stuff as we get

□h_{ab} = 8πG(2T_{ab} - ½ Tg_{ab}).

This looks a lot more like a wave equation, where for T_{ab} = 0 in source 
free region this is □h_{ab} = 0, and the box is the d'Alembertian second 
order with 

∂^i∂_ih_{ab} - ∂^2_th_{ab} = 0

which is a familiar wave equation. This wave equation has not just one term 
but two, which correspond to the two helicity states of a gravitational 
wave. For a spherically symmetric wave the intensity will drop as 1/r^2 
from the point of origin. Waves at higher orders may have quadrupole and 
dipole terms and even higher, but for sufficient distance from the source 
it becomes more spherically symmetry FAPP. So gravitational waves have 
intensities that drops with the square of the distance far removed from the 
source.

This is the first order wave equation most used to compute expected 
gravitational waves at the LIGO. The complicated stuff is in using the 
2T_{ab} - ½ Tg_{ab} for the generation of gravitational waves by imploding 
matter. The collision of black holes means one needs to expand the terms 
with 

g_{ab} = η_{ab} - h^1_{ab} - h^2_{ab} - h^2_{ab} 

where these higher orders in h deviate from the linearity with orders 
below. This is similar to post-Newtonian formalism, but once you have 
h^1_{ab} you use those to compute h^2_{ab} linear in h^2_{ab}, but with O(( 
h^1_{ab})^2) terms, and then continue to the next order and … . Then to get 
professional about this these terms are expressed in orbital parameters or 
Euler angles etc. 

LC
 

>
> 2) It's easy for telescopes to determine the direction electromagnetic 
> waves are coming from but difficult to determine its distance, with LIGO 
> it's easy to determine the distance from the gravitational wave source but 
> hard to determine the direction it's coming from.
>
>  > The graviton is quantum mechanically much the same as biphotons that 
>> occurs with bunching or Hanbury Brown and Twiss physics. 
>>
>
> LIGO can not detect gravitons and even if the graviton exists I am 
> skeptical anyone will ever be able to detect it.
>
> > The main advantage of having a third LIGO is that now the source can be 
>> triangulated more accurately. 
>>
>
> It also increases sensitivity. If 

Re: LIGO

2019-03-30 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 8:05 PM Lawrence Crowell <
goldenfieldquaterni...@gmail.com> wrote:\


> > Weak gravitational waves are very similar to electromagnetic waves,
>

>From a practical point of view there are 2 differences:

1) Our ability to detect electromagnetic waves decreases with the square of
the distance, but LIGO's ability to detect gravitational waves only
decreases linearly with distance because unlike film or CCD cameras LIGO
does not detect the energy in the wave it detects the displacement the wave
produces.

2) It's easy for telescopes to determine the direction electromagnetic
waves are coming from but difficult to determine its distance, with LIGO
it's easy to determine the distance from the gravitational wave source but
hard to determine the direction it's coming from.

 > The graviton is quantum mechanically much the same as biphotons that
> occurs with bunching or Hanbury Brown and Twiss physics.
>

LIGO can not detect gravitons and even if the graviton exists I am
skeptical anyone will ever be able to detect it.

> The main advantage of having a third LIGO is that now the source can be
> triangulated more accurately.
>

It also increases sensitivity. If you get a small jump above the noise
level in just 2 detectors that may not be enough to reach the 5 sigmas
needed to claim a discovery, but if you receive the same small jump in 3
detectors it might do the job.

 John K Clark

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Re: LIGO

2019-03-29 Thread Lawrence Crowell
On Friday, March 29, 2019 at 6:36:24 AM UTC-6, John Clark wrote:
>
> Unless there is some last second glitch the 2 LIGO gravitational wave 
> detectors in the USA and the Virgo detector in Italy will go back online on 
> Monday. The 2 LIGO detectors will be about 40% more sensitive now after the 
> upgrade and the slightly smaller Virgo detector about 50% better. And, 
> because their ability to detect waves only decrease linearly with distance 
> not as distance squared, together they will be able to see gravitational 
> events in about 3 times the previous volume. They will run for a year 
> before being shut down for yet another upgrade.
>
> And if we're lucky before the end of the year a fourth detector, KAGRA in 
> Japan, may join the party; and although smaller than LIGO it might turn 
> out to be even more sensitive because unlike the other 3 it's built 
> underground and does not work at room temperature but is cooled down to 20 
> degrees Kelvin (-253 C, -425 F) . I think that is very cool, in more ways 
> than one.
>
>  John K Clark
>

I think there is a bit of confusion here. Weak gravitational waves are 
rather easily derived with what is termed linear Einstein field equations. 
By this it is meant that the connection coefficients appear only linearly, 
and the quadratic product of them that appears in the Riemann curvature 
tensor is small and ignored. The connection terms have coupling terms on 
the order O(G/c^2), and the square is O(G^2/c^4) which is negligible in the 
weak limit. Weak gravitational waves are very similar to electromagnetic 
waves, except there are two polarization or equivalently the helicity is 2. 
The graviton is quantum mechanically much the same as biphotons that occurs 
with bunching or Hanbury Brown and Twiss physics. That in turn is a bosonic 
version of the Pauli exclusion principle for fermions. 

The main advantage of having a third LIGO is that now the source can be 
triangulated more accurately. With only two detectors you can only 
determine the source is in some band stretching across the sky. Now the 
source of gravitational waves can be triangulated with the LIGO data.

LC

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LIGO

2019-03-29 Thread John Clark
Unless there is some last second glitch the 2 LIGO gravitational wave
detectors in the USA and the Virgo detector in Italy will go back online on
Monday. The 2 LIGO detectors will be about 40% more sensitive now after the
upgrade and the slightly smaller Virgo detector about 50% better. And,
because their ability to detect waves only decrease linearly with distance
not as distance squared, together they will be able to see gravitational
events in about 3 times the previous volume. They will run for a year
before being shut down for yet another upgrade.

And if we're lucky before the end of the year a fourth detector, KAGRA in
Japan, may join the party; and although smaller than LIGO it might turn out
to be even more sensitive because unlike the other 3 it's built underground
and does not work at room temperature but is cooled down to 20 degrees
Kelvin (-253 C, -425 F) . I think that is very cool, in more ways than one.

 John K Clark

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Advanced LIGO

2019-02-19 Thread John Clark
LIGO should get back online and start detecting gravitational waves again
in about a month after being upgraded, and now they're talking about the
upgrades that will come after that. By 2022 they expect to be able to
detect one Black Hole merger a month and by 2025 one per hour. The quality
of the observations will go up too, they'll be able to tell how fast the
holes were spinning even before they merged.

LIGO to spot one black-hole merger per hour
<https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-00573-4??utm_medium=NLC_source=NSNS_campaign=2019-0218-GLOBAL-NSDAY_content=NSDAY>


John K Clark

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LIGO just announced 4 more Black Hole collisions

2018-12-04 Thread John Clark
https://www.space.com/42618-gravitational-waves-biggest-farthest-black-hole-crash.html


https://dcc.ligo.org/public/0156/P1800324/006/O2RandP.pdf


John K Clark

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LIGO does it again

2017-11-19 Thread John Clark
LIGO announced they've detected ​another Black Hole merger. On June 7 2017
Black Holes of 7 and 12 solar masses collided producing a 18 solar mass
Black Hole and a solar mass of energy in the form of Gravitational Waves.
It happened a billion years ago and these are the smallest Black Holes that
LIGO has yet found.

https://arxiv.org/abs/1711.05578

John K Clark

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LIGO

2017-08-27 Thread John Clark
Some theories challenge Einstein and say Gravity moves slightly slower than
light (or Gamma rays), if the Gamma Ray Flash and the LIGO/VIRGO gravity
event observed a few days ago really are correlated then we should be able
to measure any potential difference between these 2 speeds with enormous
precision.

Gamma Ray Bursts last between a fifth of a second and 2 seconds (giving off
more energy in the process than our sun will in its entire 10 billion year
lifetime) and the gravity pulse that LIGO/VIRGO saw was probably even
shorter. If they both started off at the same place and at the same time
134 million years ago and they arrive here at the same time to the limits
of our best measurements then there sure can't be much difference between
the speed of gravity and the speed of light.

 John K Clark

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New LIGO rumor

2017-08-26 Thread John Clark
There is a rumor that LIGO has found another gravitational wave event, but
what's new is that this time they've matched it up with something that
optical telescopes can see. If true that almost certainly was caused by
merging Neutron Stars not merging Black Holes. It all started when
astronomer  J Craig Wheeler tweeted: "*New LIGO source with optical
counterpart. Blow your sox off!*" That may also explain a otherwise
enigmatic tweet from another astronomer, Andy Howell, that was sent just
last week:  “*Tonight is one of those nights where watching the
astronomical observations roll in is better than any story any human has
ever told*.”

If it happened in the last month or so the new Virgo detector was online so
maybe they used it to triangulate and that's how they could pinpoint where
the wave came from and tell the optical astronomers where to look.
According to the rumor it happened in a large old elliptical galaxy called
 NGC 4993 about 130 million light years away, and that
​ is​
 just the sort of place you'd expect to find merging Neutron stars,
​
​
130 million light
​years
 is much
​closer​

​than​
​
 the Black Hole mergers
​,​
 but then it would have to be if LIGO could detect it because Neutron Stars
produce weaker
​Gravitational
 Waves than Neutron Stars, although they are more common.

NASA’s Chandra X-ray observatory saw a Short Gamma Ray Burst coming from
NGC 4993 on August 19, and on August 22 the Hubble Space Telescope
​ ​
people
​ ​
suddenly
​ ​
changed
​ ​
their
​ ​
observation
​ ​
schedule and decided to point their telescope at
​ ​
NGC 4993,
​ ​
they
​ ​
gave as the reason for this change in planes "follow up on a candidate
observation of gravitational waves".
​ ​
The European Southern Observatory’s Very Large Telescope
​ ​
and the top radio telescope in the world, the Atacama Large
Millimeter/submillimeter Array Chile
​ ​
also stopped what they were doing and turned to look at
​ ​
NGC 4993 on August 19.

​And late yesterday LIGO issued ​a official statement about all this:


*“Some promising gravitational-wave candidates have been identified in data
from both LIGO and Virgo during our preliminary analysis, and we have
shared what we currently know with astronomical observing partners. We are
working hard to assure that the candidates are valid gravitational-wave
events, and it will require time to establish the level of confidence
needed to bring any results to the scientific community and the greater
public. We will let you know as soon we have information ready to share.”*

John K Clark

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LIGO has detected a third Black Hole merger

2017-06-01 Thread John Clark
On January 4 2017 LIGO  detected a third Black Hole merger and the most
distant one yet, 2.9 billion light years. A  31.2 solar mass Black Hole
collided with a 19.4 solar mass Black Hole resulting in a 48.7 solar mass
Black Hole with 2 solar masses converted into gravitational wave energy.

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/ligo-snags-another-set-gravitational-waves

John K Clark

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Re: Has LIGO found new physics?

2016-12-18 Thread spudboy100 via Everything List
There has also be a test of the recent Verlinde paper, and it returned with a 
non-standard prediction of Einstein's original model. As Freeman Dyson said 
long ago, the better our equipment is, the more new things we will discover. 



-Original Message-
From: John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com>
To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Dec 18, 2016 1:18 pm
Subject: Has LIGO found new physics?



On December 9 a paper was published hinting that maybe just maybe the LIGO 
Gravitational Wave detector has found evidence for new physics, the first ever 
departure from General Relativity:



https://arxiv.org/pdf/1612.00266.pdf




String theory says, well...,some string theories say,
​ 
a Black Hole really has 2 event horizons just a few Planck lengths apart, the 
inner one is like the one Einstein predicted where anything crossing it can 
never escape, and the outer event horizon where anything crossing will 
*probably* be trapped to
​o​
 but might still escape if the particle enters at just the right angle. Some 
non-string theories also predict similar event horizons
​,​
 with a few subtle differences from the String Theory version
​,​
 in an effort to avoid the Black Hole information paradox and explain Black 
Hole firewalls.


To Gravitational Waves these 2 event horizons would act like mirrors, most
​ 
waves would pass through both but some would start bouncing back and forth 
between the two
​.​
 
​Eventually
 
​the waves 
would all get out but there would be a delay. The above paper calculates that 
the echo
​s​
 should appear at 0.1 seconds, 0.2 seconds and 0.3 seconds
​
a
fter the primary wave.
​ 
When they looked at the LIGO data for the 3 Black Hole mergers (2 certain and 1 
probable) they seemed to find echos after just
​ 
those delays
​ 
(the delay only changes with the log of of the mass, and the mass of all 3 
events were roughly the same so the delays would be too).
 
​The evidence so far for any of this is weak, the sigma is only 2.9 which means 
if you repeated the experiment 270 times you'd only expect to see the observed 
results once if it was 
​all ​
due to random noise
​.​
 
​Y​
ou need 5 sigma to claim a discover and that's one chance in 3.5 million it's 
just a fluke. A few month ago everybody got excited when the LHC said they may 
have found a new unexpected particle, and the evidence for it was almost as good
​ as LIGO's​
, the sigma was 2.1, but as more data came in the entire thing 
​just ​
disappeared, so caution is warranted.


As LIGO collects more data we should be able to confirm or rule out new physics 
within the next 2 years, less if we're lucky; although the data will probably 
not be good enough to figure out if a string theory o
​r​
 a non-string theory fits the results better, but at least we'll know if there 
is something new 
​under the sun ​
or not.

John K Clark



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Has LIGO found new physics?

2016-12-18 Thread John Clark
On December 9 a paper was published hinting that maybe just maybe the
LIGO Gravitational Wave detector has found evidence for new physics, the
first ever departure from General Relativity:

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1612.00266.pdf

String theory says, well...,some string theories say,
​
a Black Hole really has 2 event horizons just a few Planck lengths apart,
the inner one is like the one Einstein predicted where anything crossing it
can never escape, and the outer event horizon where anything crossing will *
*probably** be trapped to
​o​
 but might still escape if the particle enters at just the right angle.
Some non-string theories also predict similar event horizons
​,​
 with a few subtle differences from the String Theory version
​,​
 in an effort to avoid the Black Hole information paradox and explain Black
Hole firewalls.

To Gravitational Waves these 2 event horizons would act like mirrors, most
​
waves would pass through both but some would start bouncing back and forth
between the two
​.​

​Eventually

​the waves
would all get out but there would be a delay. The above paper calculates
that the echo
​s​
 should appear at 0.1 seconds, 0.2 seconds and 0.3 seconds
​
a
fter the primary wave.
​
When they looked at the LIGO data for the 3 Black Hole mergers (2 certain
and 1 probable) they seemed to find echos after just
​
those delays
​
(the delay only changes with the log of of the mass, and the mass of all 3
events were roughly the same so the delays would be too).

​The evidence so far for any of this is weak, the sigma is only 2.9 which
means if you repeated the experiment 270 times you'd only expect to see the
observed results once if it was
​all ​
due to random noise
​.​

​Y​
ou need 5 sigma to claim a discover and that's one chance in 3.5 million
it's just a fluke. A few month ago everybody got excited when the LHC said
they may have found a new unexpected particle, and the evidence for it was
almost as good
​ as LIGO's​
, the sigma was 2.1, but as more data came in the entire thing
​just ​
disappeared, so caution is warranted.

As LIGO collects more data we should be able to confirm or rule out new
physics within the next 2 years, less if we're lucky; although the data
will probably not be good enough to figure out if a string theory o
​r​
 a non-string theory fits the results better, but at least we'll know if
there is something new
​under the sun ​
or not.

John K Clark

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LIGO

2016-06-24 Thread John Clark
 A new analysis in the journal Nature by Krzysztof Belczynski predicts that
when LIGO reaches full sensitivity in 3 to  4 years it will see Black Hole
mergers in the 20 to 80 solal mass range about once every 9 hours ,
assuming the Black Holes came from dead stars and not from the first
nanosecond of the Big Bang , if some Black Holes are primordial it would
happen more often. Since it's pretty easy to determine from how far away
the gravitational waves came and with at  least a thousand new data points
a year we should be able map out the entire universe, including both dark
matter and regular matter, with unprecedented detail.

Unfortunately Belczynski also predicts we'll only see about one collision
between 2 neutron stars a year because of their much weaker gravitational
waves. Oh well you can't have everything.


John K Clark

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Re: LIGO found a second Black Hole collision!

2016-06-17 Thread spudboy100 via Everything List
Unless there is a big breakthrough (engineering wise) in antihydrogen 
production, we will be waiting a while for anti-matter probes to visit barnards 
star. However, through accelerators and Penning traps we already have proof of 
principle. I think Robert Forward envisioned huge scale solar arrays to gather 
up the peta exa yotta - watts of solar power, floating photon catchers to spin 
up antimatter.   On this, for Forwards Starwisp, we"ll arrive at this sooner 
then later.

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail


-Original Message-
From: Brent Meeker <meeke...@verizon.net>
To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jun 17, 2016 08:56 PM
Subject: Re: LIGO found a second Black Hole collision!


There are a few problems though:  Keeping the anti-matter isolated from 
all matter, e.g. in a magnetic bottle.  Making the anti-matter; a 
process whose EROI has many zeros behind the decimal.  Getting useful 
thrust from the annihilation of matter/anti-matter which produces gamma 
rays.  Gamma rays tend to go through stuff rather than push them.

Brent

On 6/17/2016 5:45 PM, Hans Moravec wrote:
> milligrams of antimatter to energize tons of hydrogen reaction mass, it’s an 
> idea
>
>> On 160617, at 8:39 PM, Brent Meeker <> href="mailto:meeke...@verizon.net;>meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, I was a friend of friend of Bob Forward and I once had dinner with 
>> him.  At the time though he was pushing anti-matter powered spaceships; 
>> which I thought was a crank idea.
>>
>> Brent
>>
>> On 6/16/2016 5:18 AM, Hans Moravec wrote:
>>>> On Jun 15, 2016, at 23:48 , Brent Meeker <>>> href="mailto:meeke...@verizon.net;>meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> When you look somewhere new, you see new things.  To bad Joe Weber didn't 
>>>> live to see this.
>>>>
>>>> Brent
>>> And Bob Forward (Robert L. Forward), who was once Weber's grad student, and 
>>> continued gravity related research and publication until his death in 2002.
>>>
>>>> On 6/15/2016 7:25 PM, John Clark wrote:
>>>>> After analyzing the data from LIGO's brief engineering run the scientists 
>>>>> there just announced they have found a second Black Hole merger. A Black 
>>>>> Hole of 14 solar masses merged with one of 8 solar masses and produced a 
>>>>> Black Hole of 21 solar masses and gravitational waves with 1 solar mass 
>>>>> of energy. It happened 1.4 billion light years away, about the same 
>>>>> distance as the first merger that was announced a few months ago, but the 
>>>>> signal was weaker because the Black Holes involved were smaller (14 and 8 
>>>>> vs 36 and 29) and also because the orbit of the Black Holes was more edge 
>>>>> on relative to the Earth. Edge on means the signal is weaker but it also 
>>>>> means it's easier to determine the spin, so unlike the first detection 
>>>>> this time we can say with certainty that at least one of the Black Holes 
>>>>> was spinning. And although weaker the signal lasted longer, almost a full 
>>>>> second versus a fifth of a second the first time because being smaller 
>>>>> the holes generated waves with higher frequencies that LIGO is more 
>>>>> sensitive to.
>>>>>
>>>>> And they're looking at at least one other suspected merger but they're 
>>>>> only 85% certain it's real and that's not good enough to claim discovery, 
>>>>> but there may be others so there may be a third announcement before long. 
>>>>> Not bad for observing for only 18 days. The instrument was running at 
>>>>> only one third power but that was still good enough to determine that 2 
>>>>> mirrors 4 kilometers apart had changed their distance by less than a 
>>>>> billionth of a nanometer. I can't wait for September when the 2 LIGOs get 
>>>>> back online and are joined by a third detector, VIRGO in Italy.
>>>>>
>>>>> >>>> href="http://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.116.241103;
>>>>>  
>>>>> target="_blank">http://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.116.241103
>>>>>
>>>>> John K Clark
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>>>> "Everything List" group.
>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>>&g

Re: LIGO found a second Black Hole collision!

2016-06-17 Thread Brent Meeker
There are a few problems though:  Keeping the anti-matter isolated from 
all matter, e.g. in a magnetic bottle.  Making the anti-matter; a 
process whose EROI has many zeros behind the decimal.  Getting useful 
thrust from the annihilation of matter/anti-matter which produces gamma 
rays.  Gamma rays tend to go through stuff rather than push them.


Brent

On 6/17/2016 5:45 PM, Hans Moravec wrote:

milligrams of antimatter to energize tons of hydrogen reaction mass, it’s an 
idea


On 160617, at 8:39 PM, Brent Meeker <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:

Yeah, I was a friend of friend of Bob Forward and I once had dinner with him.  
At the time though he was pushing anti-matter powered spaceships; which I 
thought was a crank idea.

Brent

On 6/16/2016 5:18 AM, Hans Moravec wrote:

On Jun 15, 2016, at 23:48 , Brent Meeker <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:

When you look somewhere new, you see new things.  To bad Joe Weber didn't live 
to see this.

Brent

And Bob Forward (Robert L. Forward), who was once Weber's grad student, and 
continued gravity related research and publication until his death in 2002.


On 6/15/2016 7:25 PM, John Clark wrote:

After analyzing the data from LIGO's brief engineering run the scientists there 
just announced they have found a second Black Hole merger. A Black Hole of 14 
solar masses merged with one of 8 solar masses and produced a Black Hole of 21 
solar masses and gravitational waves with 1 solar mass of energy. It happened 
1.4 billion light years away, about the same distance as the first merger that 
was announced a few months ago, but the signal was weaker because the Black 
Holes involved were smaller (14 and 8 vs 36 and 29) and also because the orbit 
of the Black Holes was more edge on relative to the Earth. Edge on means the 
signal is weaker but it also means it's easier to determine the spin, so unlike 
the first detection this time we can say with certainty that at least one of 
the Black Holes was spinning. And although weaker the signal lasted longer, 
almost a full second versus a fifth of a second the first time because being 
smaller the holes generated waves with higher frequencies that LIGO is more 
sensitive to.

And they're looking at at least one other suspected merger but they're only 85% 
certain it's real and that's not good enough to claim discovery, but there may 
be others so there may be a third announcement before long. Not bad for 
observing for only 18 days. The instrument was running at only one third power 
but that was still good enough to determine that 2 mirrors 4 kilometers apart 
had changed their distance by less than a billionth of a nanometer. I can't 
wait for September when the 2 LIGOs get back online and are joined by a third 
detector, VIRGO in Italy.

http://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.116.241103

  John K Clark
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Re: LIGO found a second Black Hole collision!

2016-06-17 Thread Hans Moravec
milligrams of antimatter to energize tons of hydrogen reaction mass, it’s an 
idea

> On 160617, at 8:39 PM, Brent Meeker <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:
> 
> Yeah, I was a friend of friend of Bob Forward and I once had dinner with him. 
>  At the time though he was pushing anti-matter powered spaceships; which I 
> thought was a crank idea.
> 
> Brent
> 
> On 6/16/2016 5:18 AM, Hans Moravec wrote:
>>> On Jun 15, 2016, at 23:48 , Brent Meeker <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> When you look somewhere new, you see new things.  To bad Joe Weber didn't 
>>> live to see this.
>>> 
>>> Brent
>> And Bob Forward (Robert L. Forward), who was once Weber's grad student, and 
>> continued gravity related research and publication until his death in 2002.
>> 
>>> On 6/15/2016 7:25 PM, John Clark wrote:
>>>> After analyzing the data from LIGO's brief engineering run the scientists 
>>>> there just announced they have found a second Black Hole merger. A Black 
>>>> Hole of 14 solar masses merged with one of 8 solar masses and produced a 
>>>> Black Hole of 21 solar masses and gravitational waves with 1 solar mass of 
>>>> energy. It happened 1.4 billion light years away, about the same distance 
>>>> as the first merger that was announced a few months ago, but the signal 
>>>> was weaker because the Black Holes involved were smaller (14 and 8 vs 36 
>>>> and 29) and also because the orbit of the Black Holes was more edge on 
>>>> relative to the Earth. Edge on means the signal is weaker but it also 
>>>> means it's easier to determine the spin, so unlike the first detection 
>>>> this time we can say with certainty that at least one of the Black Holes 
>>>> was spinning. And although weaker the signal lasted longer, almost a full 
>>>> second versus a fifth of a second the first time because being smaller the 
>>>> holes generated waves with higher frequencies that LIGO is more sensitive 
>>>> to.
>>>> 
>>>> And they're looking at at least one other suspected merger but they're 
>>>> only 85% certain it's real and that's not good enough to claim discovery, 
>>>> but there may be others so there may be a third announcement before long. 
>>>> Not bad for observing for only 18 days. The instrument was running at only 
>>>> one third power but that was still good enough to determine that 2 mirrors 
>>>> 4 kilometers apart had changed their distance by less than a billionth of 
>>>> a nanometer. I can't wait for September when the 2 LIGOs get back online 
>>>> and are joined by a third detector, VIRGO in Italy.
>>>> 
>>>> http://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.116.241103
>>>> 
>>>>  John K Clark
>>>> -- 
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>>>> "Everything List" group.
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>>> 
>>> -- 
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> 
> 
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Re: LIGO found a second Black Hole collision!

2016-06-17 Thread Brent Meeker
Yeah, I was a friend of friend of Bob Forward and I once had dinner with 
him.  At the time though he was pushing anti-matter powered spaceships; 
which I thought was a crank idea.


Brent

On 6/16/2016 5:18 AM, Hans Moravec wrote:

On Jun 15, 2016, at 23:48 , Brent Meeker <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:

When you look somewhere new, you see new things.  To bad Joe Weber didn't live 
to see this.

Brent

And Bob Forward (Robert L. Forward), who was once Weber's grad student, and 
continued gravity related research and publication until his death in 2002.


On 6/15/2016 7:25 PM, John Clark wrote:

After analyzing the data from LIGO's brief engineering run the scientists there 
just announced they have found a second Black Hole merger. A Black Hole of 14 
solar masses merged with one of 8 solar masses and produced a Black Hole of 21 
solar masses and gravitational waves with 1 solar mass of energy. It happened 
1.4 billion light years away, about the same distance as the first merger that 
was announced a few months ago, but the signal was weaker because the Black 
Holes involved were smaller (14 and 8 vs 36 and 29) and also because the orbit 
of the Black Holes was more edge on relative to the Earth. Edge on means the 
signal is weaker but it also means it's easier to determine the spin, so unlike 
the first detection this time we can say with certainty that at least one of 
the Black Holes was spinning. And although weaker the signal lasted longer, 
almost a full second versus a fifth of a second the first time because being 
smaller the holes generated waves with higher frequencies that LIGO is more 
sensitive to.

And they're looking at at least one other suspected merger but they're only 85% 
certain it's real and that's not good enough to claim discovery, but there may 
be others so there may be a third announcement before long. Not bad for 
observing for only 18 days. The instrument was running at only one third power 
but that was still good enough to determine that 2 mirrors 4 kilometers apart 
had changed their distance by less than a billionth of a nanometer. I can't 
wait for September when the 2 LIGOs get back online and are joined by a third 
detector, VIRGO in Italy.

http://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.116.241103

  John K Clark
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Re: LIGO found a second Black Hole collision!

2016-06-17 Thread Hans Moravec

> On Jun 15, 2016, at 23:48 , Brent Meeker <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:
> 
> When you look somewhere new, you see new things.  To bad Joe Weber didn't 
> live to see this.
> 
> Brent

And Bob Forward (Robert L. Forward), who was once Weber's grad student, and 
continued gravity related research and publication until his death in 2002.

> 
> On 6/15/2016 7:25 PM, John Clark wrote:
>> After analyzing the data from LIGO's brief engineering run the scientists 
>> there just announced they have found a second Black Hole merger. A Black 
>> Hole of 14 solar masses merged with one of 8 solar masses and produced a 
>> Black Hole of 21 solar masses and gravitational waves with 1 solar mass of 
>> energy. It happened 1.4 billion light years away, about the same distance as 
>> the first merger that was announced a few months ago, but the signal was 
>> weaker because the Black Holes involved were smaller (14 and 8 vs 36 and 29) 
>> and also because the orbit of the Black Holes was more edge on relative to 
>> the Earth. Edge on means the signal is weaker but it also means it's easier 
>> to determine the spin, so unlike the first detection this time we can say 
>> with certainty that at least one of the Black Holes was spinning. And 
>> although weaker the signal lasted longer, almost a full second versus a 
>> fifth of a second the first time because being smaller the holes generated 
>> waves with higher frequencies that LIGO is more sensitive to. 
>> 
>> And they're looking at at least one other suspected merger but they're only 
>> 85% certain it's real and that's not good enough to claim discovery, but 
>> there may be others so there may be a third announcement before long. Not 
>> bad for observing for only 18 days. The instrument was running at only one 
>> third power but that was still good enough to determine that 2 mirrors 4 
>> kilometers apart had changed their distance by less than a billionth of a 
>> nanometer. I can't wait for September when the 2 LIGOs get back online and 
>> are joined by a third detector, VIRGO in Italy. 
>> 
>> http://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.116.241103 
>> 
>>  John K Clark
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Re: LIGO found a second Black Hole collision!

2016-06-15 Thread Brent Meeker
When you look somewhere new, you see new things.  To bad Joe Weber 
didn't live to see this.


Brent


On 6/15/2016 7:25 PM, John Clark wrote:
After analyzing the data from LIGO's brief engineering run the 
scientists there just announced they have found a second Black Hole 
merger. A Black Hole of 14 solar masses merged with one of 8 solar 
masses and produced a Black Hole of 21 solar masses and gravitational 
waves with 1 solar mass of energy. It happened 1.4 billion light years 
away, about the same distance as the first merger that was announced a 
few months ago, but the signal was weaker because the Black Holes 
involved were smaller (14 and 8 vs 36 and 29) and also because the 
orbit of the Black Holes was more edge on relative to the Earth. Edge 
on means the signal is weaker but it also means it's easier to 
determine the spin, so unlike the first detection this time we can say 
with certainty that at least one of the Black Holes was spinning. And 
although weaker the signal lasted longer, almost a full second versus 
a fifth of a second the first time because being smaller the holes 
generated waves with higher frequencies that LIGO is more sensitive to.


And they're looking at at least one other suspected merger but they're 
only 85% certain it's real and that's not good enough to claim 
discovery, but there may be others so there may be a third 
announcement before long. Not bad for observing for only 18 days. The 
instrument was running at only one third power but that was still good 
enough to determine that 2 mirrors 4 kilometers apart had changed 
their distance by less than a billionth of a nanometer. I can't wait 
for September when the 2 LIGOs get back online and are joined by a 
third detector, VIRGO in Italy.


http://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.116.241103

 John K Clark
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LIGO found a second Black Hole collision!

2016-06-15 Thread John Clark
After analyzing the data from LIGO's brief engineering run the scientists
there just announced they have found a second Black Hole merger. A Black
Hole of 14 solar masses merged with one of 8 solar masses and produced a
Black Hole of 21 solar masses and gravitational waves with 1 solar mass of
energy. It happened 1.4 billion light years away, about the same distance
as the first merger that was announced a few months ago, but the signal was
weaker because the Black Holes involved were smaller (14 and 8 vs 36 and
29) and also because the orbit of the Black Holes was more edge on relative
to the Earth. Edge on means the signal is weaker but it also means it's
easier to determine the spin, so unlike the first detection this time we
can say with certainty that at least one of the Black Holes was spinning.
And although weaker the signal lasted longer, almost a full second versus a
fifth of a second the first time because being smaller the holes generated
waves with higher frequencies that LIGO is more sensitive to.

And they're looking at at least one other suspected merger but they're only
85% certain it's real and that's not good enough to claim discovery, but
there may be others so there may be a third announcement before long. Not
bad for observing for only 18 days. The instrument was running at only one
third power but that was still good enough to determine that 2 mirrors 4
kilometers apart had changed their distance by less than a billionth of a
nanometer. I can't wait for September when the 2 LIGOs get back online and
are joined by a third detector, VIRGO in Italy.

http://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.116.241103

 John K Clark

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-16 Thread Pierz
Energy, John Mikes, is just a measure of change in a physical system with time. 
Or change in arrangements of spacetime in the time direction. And what is mass? 
It's just changes in spacetime in the space direction(s). And it turns out each 
can be rotated to become the other. What is spacetime? Well you got me there. 
Bruno will tell you :)

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-16 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Feb 16, 2016  spudboy100 via Everything List <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:


> ​> ​
> When I think of energy, I think of movement, or flow.


​That's one form of energy, and the amount of energy depends on the mass of
the moving object and its velocity but it turns out that of the two
velocity is more important; double the mass and the energy doubles but
double the velocity and you have 4 times the energy.


> ​> ​
> or flow


Flow is a bit different.
​The ability of a flow of
air to do work on a window, that is to say cause damage to the window, ​
is proportional to the cube of the wind speed not the square.
​ ​
It's true that if you double the speed each individual oxygen and nitrogen
molecule would have 4 times the energy, but you'd have 2 times as many
molecules pass through a unit area in the same amount of time and twice as
many particles each with 4 times the energy makes 8. So a 126 mph wind
would produce twice as much damage as a 100 mph wind and a 144 mph wind 3
times as much and a 159 mph 4 times as much.

Or you can think about it this way, if the wind is gentle it will exert a
force on the window, but it's work that causes damage not force, and work
is force over a distance. The gentle wind does not move or distort the
window so no work is done on it and it suffers no damage.  A faster wind
will move the window, and that means it will do work on it, and that means
it will shatter it.

​> ​
When I think of matter, I think of bound things like atoms or molecules,
where the flow is very slow.

​Air is made of molecules but they are not moving slowly. In a box of air
at room temperature the molecules in the box are moving at about ​1,200

​miles per hour, but the molecules are all moving in different directions.
For the energy in that box to actually do something, for it to do work, the
molecules must move in the same direction, and there are ways to do that
with heat engines but the second law of thermodynamics tells us you can
never do that with 100% efficiency, some of the molecules will always be
moving in the wrong direction and energy will be wasted.  ​

 John K Clark

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-16 Thread spudboy100 via Everything List
You might be wasting keyboard time in explaining all this to me? However, I am 
guessing that the way we all use the word, energy, is that we may be meaning 
vastly different things. The phrase from physics "when matter uncoupled from 
energy of the Big Bang," Or should we be referring to Carnot cycles, or Watts, 
or micro-Kelvan's? When I think of energy, I think of movement, or flow. When I 
think of matter, I think of bound things like atoms or molecules, where the 
flow is very slow. John, if you need to face-palm yourself and move on from my 
questionings, please do so, as life can be aggravating, enough.



-Original Message-
From: John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com>
To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Feb 14, 2016 12:54 pm
Subject: Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!







On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 9:34 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List 
<everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:


​> ​
You know, I have never heard a decent definition of what energy is? I learnt in 
grade school was that energy was the ability to do work.



​You need energy to do work but you can never use all the energy you have to do 
work no matter how good your technology is, much of it is always wasted. With 
today's machines usually less than 40% of the energy can do work; electric 
motors do better than that but you waste a lot of energy converting heat or 
motion or sunlight into electricity. 

 

​> ​
Yah! Now that sounds really, scientific, not. I refined the definition, to be 
"matter in motion."



​The energy of motion is half of the mass of the matter times the velocity of 
motion squared. If it's at rest it still has energy, it's the mass times the 
speed of light squared. ​




​  John K Clark​
 








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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-15 Thread John Mikes
Reassuring to read excellently educated scientists talk about
hypo(thetical) items using other hypo(thetical) names to explain the
unexplainables. The outstanding post came from Russell, who referred to
theoretical texts of other scientists (the rest spoke for themselves) -
however fell into the trap of the "famos" E=m.c^2 of which - reasonably -
only the '^' makes sense (I take the '2' also as a human derived
mathematical wonder in my agnosticism).
Human ingenuity built up a system (called 'Nature') that WORKS, in view of
it's own right, technology is applicable, we live in some 'civilized' ways
and have food etc. from the perceived 'natural' resources.
Just do not ask "WHAT IS ENERGY"?

(BTW I was careless lately to volunteer a solution to that - do not argue
FOR it though - it comes with my hypothesis of the proto-world - the
Entirety - in which everything (literally) coincides with everything in
equilibrium with - well - everything. When such coincidence accumulates too
many too similar items the equilibrium changes into 'complexity' what - in
some cases - we call a UNIVERSE, (including this,our own one) with a
tendency to return into the equilibrium state (reducing the complexity) by
dissipation of the irregularly accumulated 'similars'. Such tendency is
what I called (past tense) energy in our universe-system (physics). By the
vision of 'physical' dissipation (e.g. black hole theory) the constituents
of the 'universe(s)' return into the well equilibrated Entirety by such
tendency - the universe-related denomination
in our physics may be called 'energy'.
It does not refer only to materialistically physical items since a complete
imagintion of the Entirety is way above our head (and it's content).
Please, don't ask me for similarly fantasy-laden explanations about
'mass','time' etc.

Now I joined the line of the self-expressing posters (vs Russell's wisdom).
John Mikes


On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 5:46 PM, Russell Standish <li...@hpcoders.com.au>
wrote:

> The best definition I've heard, which I ascribe to Vic Stenger, is
> that it is what is conserved when a physical system is translated in
> the time dimension. This comes from the Noether theorem.
>
> Of course, relativity changes this a bit, since there is no longer a
> unique time dimension. In relativity, what is conserved is a 4-vector
> when the system is translated in spacetime. Conventionally we call
> that vector the "mass-energy-momentum" vector. The magnitude of that
> vector is just the rest mass of the system, and that is an intrinsic
> property of the system. E=mc^2 is just a famous equation referring to
> the fact that components of a vector change when you change the
> coordinate system (which depends on the observer) - much like the
> width and height of a 2D object change into each other as you rotate
> the x-y axes of the coordinate system.
>
> Cheers
>
> On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 09:34:09AM -0500, spudboy100 via Everything List
> wrote:
> > You know, I have never heard a decent definition of what energy is? I
> learnt in grade school was that energy was the ability to do work. Yah! Now
> that sounds really, scientific, not. I refined the definition, to be
> "matter in motion." Anyone have a better definition? "It takes energy.."
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Terren Suydam <terren.suy...@gmail.com>
> > To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
> > Sent: Sat, Feb 13, 2016 9:47 pm
> > Subject: Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!
> >
> >
> >
> > Great, but what is the specific way in which mass is converted into the
> energy required to produce gravitational waves?  When planetary orbits
> decay, kinetic energy is lost... No mass is converted.
> > On Feb 13, 2016 1:20 PM, "John Clark" <johnkcl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 1:00 AM, Terren Suydam <terren.suy...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ​> ​
> > Sure, but John said the black holes lost 3 solar masses, which was
> converted into gravitational waves... how?  Fusion and fission are easy
> examples of mass to energy conversion - so what's the specific interaction
> here according to theory?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ​Einstein found in General Relativity a new law of nature, he said it
> takes energy to make gravitational waves and that an accelerating mass
> produces gravitational waves, just as Maxwell said a accelerating charged
> particle makes a electromagnetic wave. Normally this effect is far too
> small to be important and can be ignored, but when it's something as
> massive as a black hole and its vibrating at almost the speed of light as
> it

Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-14 Thread Russell Standish
The best definition I've heard, which I ascribe to Vic Stenger, is
that it is what is conserved when a physical system is translated in
the time dimension. This comes from the Noether theorem.

Of course, relativity changes this a bit, since there is no longer a
unique time dimension. In relativity, what is conserved is a 4-vector
when the system is translated in spacetime. Conventionally we call
that vector the "mass-energy-momentum" vector. The magnitude of that
vector is just the rest mass of the system, and that is an intrinsic
property of the system. E=mc^2 is just a famous equation referring to
the fact that components of a vector change when you change the
coordinate system (which depends on the observer) - much like the
width and height of a 2D object change into each other as you rotate
the x-y axes of the coordinate system.

Cheers

On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 09:34:09AM -0500, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
> You know, I have never heard a decent definition of what energy is? I learnt 
> in grade school was that energy was the ability to do work. Yah! Now that 
> sounds really, scientific, not. I refined the definition, to be "matter in 
> motion." Anyone have a better definition? "It takes energy.."
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Terren Suydam <terren.suy...@gmail.com>
> To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Sat, Feb 13, 2016 9:47 pm
> Subject: Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!
> 
> 
> 
> Great, but what is the specific way in which mass is converted into the 
> energy required to produce gravitational waves?  When planetary orbits decay, 
> kinetic energy is lost... No mass is converted.
> On Feb 13, 2016 1:20 PM, "John Clark" <johnkcl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 1:00 AM, Terren Suydam <terren.suy...@gmail.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​> ​
> Sure, but John said the black holes lost 3 solar masses, which was converted 
> into gravitational waves... how?  Fusion and fission are easy examples of 
> mass to energy conversion - so what's the specific interaction here according 
> to theory?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​Einstein found in General Relativity a new law of nature, he said it takes 
> energy to make gravitational waves and that an accelerating mass produces 
> gravitational waves, just as Maxwell said a accelerating charged particle 
> makes a electromagnetic wave. Normally this effect is far too small to be 
> important and can be ignored, but when it's something as massive as a black 
> hole and its vibrating at almost the speed of light as it tries to become 
> spherical we now know that gravity waves can not be ignored and Einstein was 
> right. General Relativity has passed its most stringent test yet and passed 
> it with flying colors! 
> 
>  John K Clark
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> -- 
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> 
> 
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-- 


Dr Russell StandishPhone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders
Visiting Senior Research Fellowhpco...@hpcoders.com.au
Economics, Kingston University http://www.hpcoders.com.au


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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-14 Thread spudboy100 via Everything List
You know, I have never heard a decent definition of what energy is? I learnt in 
grade school was that energy was the ability to do work. Yah! Now that sounds 
really, scientific, not. I refined the definition, to be "matter in motion." 
Anyone have a better definition? "It takes energy.."



-Original Message-
From: Terren Suydam <terren.suy...@gmail.com>
To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Feb 13, 2016 9:47 pm
Subject: Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!



Great, but what is the specific way in which mass is converted into the energy 
required to produce gravitational waves?  When planetary orbits decay, kinetic 
energy is lost... No mass is converted.
On Feb 13, 2016 1:20 PM, "John Clark" <johnkcl...@gmail.com> wrote:


On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 1:00 AM, Terren Suydam <terren.suy...@gmail.com> wrote:





​> ​
Sure, but John said the black holes lost 3 solar masses, which was converted 
into gravitational waves... how?  Fusion and fission are easy examples of mass 
to energy conversion - so what's the specific interaction here according to 
theory?




​Einstein found in General Relativity a new law of nature, he said it takes 
energy to make gravitational waves and that an accelerating mass produces 
gravitational waves, just as Maxwell said a accelerating charged particle makes 
a electromagnetic wave. Normally this effect is far too small to be important 
and can be ignored, but when it's something as massive as a black hole and its 
vibrating at almost the speed of light as it tries to become spherical we now 
know that gravity waves can not be ignored and Einstein was right. General 
Relativity has passed its most stringent test yet and passed it with flying 
colors! 

 John K Clark







 


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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-14 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 9:34 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:

​> ​
> You know, I have never heard a decent definition of what energy is? I
> learnt in grade school was that energy was the ability to do work.


​You need energy to do work but you can never use all the energy you have
to do work no matter how good your technology is, much of it is always
wasted. With today's machines usually less than 40% of the energy can do
work; electric motors do better than that but you waste a lot of energy
converting heat or motion or sunlight into electricity.


> ​> ​
> Yah! Now that sounds really, scientific, not. I refined the definition, to
> be "matter in motion."


​The energy of motion is half of the mass of the matter times the velocity
of motion squared. If it's at rest it still has energy, it's the mass times
the speed of light squared. ​

​  John K Clark​

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-13 Thread John Clark
On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 1:00 AM, Terren Suydam 
wrote:

​> ​
> Sure, but John said the black holes lost 3 solar masses, which was
> converted into gravitational waves... how?  Fusion and fission are easy
> examples of mass to energy conversion - so what's the specific interaction
> here according to theory?
>

​Einstein found in General Relativity a new law of nature, he said it takes
energy to make gravitational waves and that an accelerating mass produces
gravitational waves, just as Maxwell said a accelerating charged particle
makes a electromagnetic wave. Normally this effect is far too small to be
important and can be ignored, but when it's something as massive as a black
hole and its vibrating at almost the speed of light as it tries to become
spherical we now know that gravity waves can not be ignored and Einstein
was right. General Relativity has passed its most stringent test yet and
passed it with flying colors!

 John K Clark

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-13 Thread Terren Suydam
Great, but what is the specific way in which mass is converted into the
energy required to produce gravitational waves?  When planetary orbits
decay, kinetic energy is lost... No mass is converted.
On Feb 13, 2016 1:20 PM, "John Clark"  wrote:

> On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 1:00 AM, Terren Suydam 
> wrote:
>
> ​> ​
>> Sure, but John said the black holes lost 3 solar masses, which was
>> converted into gravitational waves... how?  Fusion and fission are easy
>> examples of mass to energy conversion - so what's the specific interaction
>> here according to theory?
>>
>
> ​Einstein found in General Relativity a new law of nature, he said it
> takes energy to make gravitational waves and that an accelerating mass
> produces gravitational waves, just as Maxwell said a accelerating charged
> particle makes a electromagnetic wave. Normally this effect is far too
> small to be important and can be ignored, but when it's something as
> massive as a black hole and its vibrating at almost the speed of light as
> it tries to become spherical we now know that gravity waves can not be
> ignored and Einstein was right. General Relativity has passed its most
> stringent test yet and passed it with flying colors!
>
>  John K Clark
>
>
>
>
>
> --
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-13 Thread Terren Suydam
Ahhh, makes sense, you know, in the absurd way that anything in relativity
or QM makes sense.

One more question. A mass is hurtling through space (not in orbit, to keep
things simple). In the mass's frame of reference it has zero kinetic
energy. It is at rest. From the perspective of a nearby planet, the mass
has a certain amount of kinetic energy. Does that mean its mass changes
depending on the frame of reference it is being observed from?

On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 10:02 PM, Brent Meeker  wrote:

> In relativity mass and energy are interchangeable.  For example, most of
> the mass of a proton is in the kinetic energy of the quarks.  When a
> planetary orbit decays (by radiating gravity waves) kinetic energy is lost
> and this shows up as less gravitational mass for the sun/planet system.  So
> mass IS converted.
>
> Brent
>
>
> On 2/13/2016 6:47 PM, Terren Suydam wrote:
>
> Great, but what is the specific way in which mass is converted into the
> energy required to produce gravitational waves?  When planetary orbits
> decay, kinetic energy is lost... No mass is converted.
> On Feb 13, 2016 1:20 PM, "John Clark"  wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 1:00 AM, Terren Suydam <
>> terren.suy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> ​ > ​
>>> Sure, but John said the black holes lost 3 solar masses, which was
>>> converted into gravitational waves... how?  Fusion and fission are easy
>>> examples of mass to energy conversion - so what's the specific interaction
>>> here according to theory?
>>>
>>
>> ​Einstein found in General Relativity a new law of nature, he said it
>> takes energy to make gravitational waves and that an accelerating mass
>> produces gravitational waves, just as Maxwell said a accelerating charged
>> particle makes a electromagnetic wave. Normally this effect is far too
>> small to be important and can be ignored, but when it's something as
>> massive as a black hole and its vibrating at almost the speed of light as
>> it tries to become spherical we now know that gravity waves can not be
>> ignored and Einstein was right. General Relativity has passed its most
>> stringent test yet and passed it with flying colors!
>>
>>  John K Clark
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-13 Thread Russell Standish
On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 11:11:05PM -0500, Terren Suydam wrote:
> Ahhh, makes sense, you know, in the absurd way that anything in relativity
> or QM makes sense.
> 
> One more question. A mass is hurtling through space (not in orbit, to keep
> things simple). In the mass's frame of reference it has zero kinetic
> energy. It is at rest. From the perspective of a nearby planet, the mass
> has a certain amount of kinetic energy. Does that mean its mass changes
> depending on the frame of reference it is being observed from?
> 

Yes. Google the term "rest mass", which is instrinsic to the object,
and contrast that with "relativistic mass", which is the measured mass
by an observer travelling at some velocity relative to the object. For
example, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_in_special_relativity.

Cheers


-- 


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Principal, High Performance Coders
Visiting Senior Research Fellowhpco...@hpcoders.com.au
Economics, Kingston University http://www.hpcoders.com.au


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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-13 Thread Brent Meeker
Depends on what you mean by "its mass".  As used in particle physics, 
that phrase always refers to the particles rest-mass, which is an 
invariant (the same in any coordinate frame).  But if you think of "its 
mass" as referring to the strength of the body's gravitational field, 
then yes its mass is greater when measured relative to a moving field.  
However, remember that the Lorentz contraction flattens the field along 
the direction of travel, so in passing by its gravitational pull has a 
shorter duration.


Brent

On 2/13/2016 8:11 PM, Terren Suydam wrote:
Ahhh, makes sense, you know, in the absurd way that anything in 
relativity or QM makes sense.


One more question. A mass is hurtling through space (not in orbit, to 
keep things simple). In the mass's frame of reference it has zero 
kinetic energy. It is at rest. From the perspective of a nearby 
planet, the mass has a certain amount of kinetic energy. Does that 
mean its mass changes depending on the frame of reference it is being 
observed from?


On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 10:02 PM, Brent Meeker > wrote:


In relativity mass and energy are interchangeable.  For example,
most of the mass of a proton is in the kinetic energy of the
quarks. When a planetary orbit decays (by radiating gravity waves)
kinetic energy is lost and this shows up as less gravitational
mass for the sun/planet system.  So mass IS converted.

Brent


On 2/13/2016 6:47 PM, Terren Suydam wrote:


Great, but what is the specific way in which mass is converted
into the energy required to produce gravitational waves?  When
planetary orbits decay, kinetic energy is lost... No mass is
converted.

On Feb 13, 2016 1:20 PM, "John Clark" > wrote:

On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 1:00 AM, Terren Suydam
>wrote:

​ > ​
Sure, but John said the black holes lost 3 solar masses,
which was converted into gravitational waves... how? 
Fusion and fission are easy examples of mass to energy

conversion - so what's the specific interaction here
according to theory?


​Einstein found in General Relativity a new law of nature, he
said it takes energy to make gravitational waves and that an
accelerating mass produces gravitational waves, just as
Maxwell said a accelerating charged particle makes a
electromagnetic wave. Normally this effect is far too small
to be important and can be ignored, but when it's something
as massive as a black hole and its vibrating at almost the
speed of light as it tries to become spherical we now know
that gravity waves can not be ignored and Einstein was right.
General Relativity has passed its most stringent test yet and
passed it with flying colors!

 John K Clark



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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-13 Thread Russell Standish
On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 09:47:11PM -0500, Terren Suydam wrote:
> Great, but what is the specific way in which mass is converted into the
> energy required to produce gravitational waves?  When planetary orbits
> decay, kinetic energy is lost... No mass is converted.

Kinetic energy has mass! When the kinetic energy is lost, so is the
system's mass.

Don't be fooled by the fact that the sorts of kinetic energy we
experience on a daily basis has almost immeasurably small mass into
the assumption that kinetic energy has zero mass.


Cheers
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Principal, High Performance Coders
Visiting Senior Research Fellowhpco...@hpcoders.com.au
Economics, Kingston University http://www.hpcoders.com.au


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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-13 Thread Brent Meeker
In relativity mass and energy are interchangeable.  For example, most of 
the mass of a proton is in the kinetic energy of the quarks.  When a 
planetary orbit decays (by radiating gravity waves) kinetic energy is 
lost and this shows up as less gravitational mass for the sun/planet 
system.  So mass IS converted.


Brent

On 2/13/2016 6:47 PM, Terren Suydam wrote:


Great, but what is the specific way in which mass is converted into 
the energy required to produce gravitational waves?  When planetary 
orbits decay, kinetic energy is lost... No mass is converted.


On Feb 13, 2016 1:20 PM, "John Clark" > wrote:


On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 1:00 AM, Terren Suydam
>wrote:

​ > ​
Sure, but John said the black holes lost 3 solar masses, which
was converted into gravitational waves... how?  Fusion and
fission are easy examples of mass to energy conversion - so
what's the specific interaction here according to theory?


​Einstein found in General Relativity a new law of nature, he said
it takes energy to make gravitational waves and that an
accelerating mass produces gravitational waves, just as Maxwell
said a accelerating charged particle makes a electromagnetic wave.
Normally this effect is far too small to be important and can be
ignored, but when it's something as massive as a black hole and
its vibrating at almost the speed of light as it tries to become
spherical we now know that gravity waves can not be ignored and
Einstein was right. General Relativity has passed its most
stringent test yet and passed it with flying colors!

 John K Clark



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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-12 Thread Terren Suydam
I thought the gravitational waves were generated as the black holes rotated
around one another, not (merely) as a consequence of the collision. Also,
what kinds of interactions transfer the energy/mass of the black holes
themselves into gravitational waves?  I wasn't aware that any energy was
"spent" creating a gravitational wave, much less three solar-masses worth,
in this case.



On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 8:23 PM, John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 7:30 PM, Terren Suydam <terren.suy...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>> ​> ​
>> As amazing as detecting the gravitational waves are, I'm actually more
>> interested in what happens when those two black holes collide... is the
>> resulting explosion entirely contained in the event horizon or is there any
>> possibility that matter/energy can escape due to the high energies involved?
>>
>
> ​It wasn't an explosion if anything it was an implosion and the results
> were not contained within the event horizon, if they were we wouldn't have
> been able to detect it. What we detected was a 36 solar mass black hole
> merging with a 29 solar mass black hole and producing a 62 solar mass black
> hole with the missing 3 solar masses being converted into energy in the
> form of gravitational waves, which is what LIGO saw. It all happened in a
> fifth of a second. If 3 solar masses had been converted to light instead of
> gravitational waves during that fifth of a second it would have been
> brighter than the rest of the universe put together.
>
>  John K Clark
>
>
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-12 Thread Terren Suydam
Thanks John, interesting. Does current theory make any predictions on how
much energy (electro-magnetic and otherwise) actually is produced during
ring-down, despite the inability to observe it due to the event horizon?

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 11:37 AM, John Clark  wrote:

>
> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 7:57 AM, Terren Suydam 
> wrote:
>
> ​> ​
>> I thought the gravitational waves were generated as the black holes
>> rotated around one another, not (merely) as a consequence of the collision.
>> Also, what kinds of interactions transfer the energy/mass of the black
>> holes themselves into gravitational waves?
>>
>
> Every time a mass accelerates gravity waves are produced, the greater the
> mass and the faster the acceleration the stronger the wave.
> ​ ​
> Even the Earth produces a very small amount of Gravitational Waves as it
> accelerates in its orbit around the sun, and the energy to produce the
> waves comes from slowing down Earth's orbital speed and the orbit shrinks
> as a result, but not by much. Each year the Earth gets
> ​ ​
> 3.5×10^−13
> ​ ​
> meters
> ​ ​
> closer to the sun
> ​ due to gravity waves​
> , about 1/300 the diameter of a hydrogen atom.
>
> When 2 black holes merge most of the waves
> ​ ​
> are produced
> ​ ​
> in a phase called "ring down"; when they first merge they are irregularly
> shaped but
> ​ ​
> black holes want to be spherical
> ​ ​
> and so start vibrating radically
> ​and that ​
> produces
> ​
>  the most intense gravity waves in the universe
> ​,​
>
> ​but​
> after about a fifth of a second
> ​ ​they
> have stop
> ​ ​
> vibrating
> ​and ​
> got
> ​ten​
> rid of their irregularities and become spherical.
> ​ ​
> It
> took​
> 3 solar masses of energy to produce those gravity waves, if it had been
> light
> ​produced not gravity waves ​
> during that fifth of a second
> ​ it would have been ​
> 50 times brighter than everything else in the observable universe put
> together
> ​.​
>
>
>  John K Clark
>
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-12 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 7:57 AM, Terren Suydam 
wrote:

​> ​
> I thought the gravitational waves were generated as the black holes
> rotated around one another, not (merely) as a consequence of the collision.
> Also, what kinds of interactions transfer the energy/mass of the black
> holes themselves into gravitational waves?
>

Every time a mass accelerates gravity waves are produced, the greater the
mass and the faster the acceleration the stronger the wave.
​ ​
Even the Earth produces a very small amount of Gravitational Waves as it
accelerates in its orbit around the sun, and the energy to produce the
waves comes from slowing down Earth's orbital speed and the orbit shrinks
as a result, but not by much. Each year the Earth gets
​ ​
3.5×10^−13
​ ​
meters
​ ​
closer to the sun
​ due to gravity waves​
, about 1/300 the diameter of a hydrogen atom.

When 2 black holes merge most of the waves
​ ​
are produced
​ ​
in a phase called "ring down"; when they first merge they are irregularly
shaped but
​ ​
black holes want to be spherical
​ ​
and so start vibrating radically
​and that ​
produces
​
 the most intense gravity waves in the universe
​,​

​but​
after about a fifth of a second
​ ​they
have stop
​ ​
vibrating
​and ​
got
​ten​
rid of their irregularities and become spherical.
​ ​
It
took​
3 solar masses of energy to produce those gravity waves, if it had been
light
​produced not gravity waves ​
during that fifth of a second
​ it would have been ​
50 times brighter than everything else in the observable universe put
together
​.​


 John K Clark

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-12 Thread spudboy100 via Everything List
Yeah, I know, but I was wondering if because we are all about photons, 
earth-life, etc; I wondered if we will find interesting things that don't show 
up photometrically, visible light, ultraviolet, infrared, xrays, gamma rays. 
Like a magic gravity telescope that would see something out there in the dark.



-Original Message-
From: Brent Meeker <meeke...@verizon.net>
To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Feb 11, 2016 11:11 pm
Subject: Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!


The LIGO detects gravitational waves - even from events that produceno 
photons.

Brent


On 2/11/2016 7:28 PM, spudboy100 via  Everything List wrote:


My thought is I wonder if its possible to create some  kind of 
gravitational wave detector that can view objects that  don't produce a lot 
of photons. Maybe there could be structures  that wash out photonically, by 
the background radiation, but spike  big time, as grav waves?
  
  Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
  
  
  -Original Message-
  From: Russell Standish <li...@hpcoders.com.au>
  To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
  Sent: Thu, Feb 11, 2016 05:14 PM
  Subject: Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!
  
  
  Fantastic news!
  
  On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 11:16:57AM -0500, John Clark wrote:
  > On Sept. 14 at 4am the LIGO detector in Livingston Louisiana  
detected a
  > burst of gravitational waves, 7 milliseconds later the LIGO  
detector in
  > Hanford Washington detected the same thing. The possibility  of 
this being
  > due to chance is vanishingly small. What they detected was 2  black 
holes
  > circling each other at 250 times a second, one was 36 times  the 
mass of the
  > sun and the other 29 times. The entire signal only lasted for  a 
fifth of a
  > second.
  > 
      > 
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/12/science/ligo-gravitational-waves-black-holes-einstein.html
  > ​
  > 
  > J​ohn K Clark
  > 
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-12 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 4:59 PM, Terren Suydam 
wrote:

​> ​
> If you were in one of the galaxies involved with the colliding black
> holes, would you be close enough to the gravitational waves to feel them on
> any kind of macroscopic level such as the one we inhabit?
>

Over at the Extropian list Anders Sandberg did a rough calculation and
figured you'd have to be closer than 80,000 miles for it to be lethal to
the human body directly. Granted a thousand times that distance would cause
severe earthquakes, but that's still only 80,000,000 miles, so unless those
two black holes are in your very own solar system and are closer to you
than we are to the sun (and if 2 black holes are that close then you have
severe problems regardless of the gravitational waves) there isn't any
reason to worry about killer gravitational waves.

 John K Clark

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-12 Thread Brent Meeker
Two massive bodies orbit one another - the interaction is 
gravitational.  As their positions change, the gravitational field due 
to their mass-energy must change.  But it can't change instantaneously 
at distant points; the change propagates outward at the speed of light.  
This is a wave in the metric of space time and it carries energy.   The 
energy comes from the orbiting bodies mass-energy so the final black 
hole has less mass than the constituents.


Brent

On 2/12/2016 10:00 PM, Terren Suydam wrote:
Sure, but John said the black holes lost 3 solar masses, which was 
converted into gravitational waves... how? Fusion and fission are easy 
examples of mass to energy conversion - so what's the specific 
interaction here according to theory?


On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 10:49 PM, Brent Meeker <meeke...@verizon.net 
<mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote:


The interaction is gravitational. The first experimental evidence
for gravitational waves was the correct derivation of the observed
orbital decay of a double star due to energy radiated as
gravitational waves.

Brent


On 2/12/2016 4:57 AM, Terren Suydam wrote:

I thought the gravitational waves were generated as the black
holes rotated around one another, not (merely) as a consequence
of the collision. Also, what kinds of interactions transfer the
energy/mass of the black holes themselves into gravitational
waves?  I wasn't aware that any energy was "spent" creating a
gravitational wave, much less three solar-masses worth, in this
case.



On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 8:23 PM, John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com
<mailto:johnkcl...@gmail.com>> wrote:

On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 7:30 PM, Terren Suydam
<terren.suy...@gmail.com <mailto:terren.suy...@gmail.com>>wrote:

​ > ​
As amazing as detecting the gravitational waves are, I'm
actually more interested in what happens when those two
black holes collide... is the resulting explosion
entirely contained in the event horizon or is there any
possibility that matter/energy can escape due to the high
energies involved?


​It wasn't an explosion if anything it was an implosion and
the results were not contained within the event horizon, if
they were we wouldn't have been able to detect it. What we
detected was a 36 solar mass black hole merging with
a 29 solar mass black hole and producing a 62 solar mass
black hole with the missing 3 solar masses being converted
into energy in the form of gravitational waves, which is what
LIGO saw. It all happened in a fifth of a second. If 3 solar
masses had been converted to light instead of gravitational
waves during that fifth of a second it would have been
brighter than the rest of the universe put together.

 John K Clark
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-12 Thread Terren Suydam
Sure, but John said the black holes lost 3 solar masses, which was
converted into gravitational waves... how?  Fusion and fission are easy
examples of mass to energy conversion - so what's the specific interaction
here according to theory?

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 10:49 PM, Brent Meeker <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:

> The interaction is gravitational. The first experimental evidence for
> gravitational waves was the correct derivation of the observed orbital
> decay of a double star due to energy radiated as gravitational waves.
>
> Brent
>
>
> On 2/12/2016 4:57 AM, Terren Suydam wrote:
>
> I thought the gravitational waves were generated as the black holes
> rotated around one another, not (merely) as a consequence of the collision.
> Also, what kinds of interactions transfer the energy/mass of the black
> holes themselves into gravitational waves?  I wasn't aware that any energy
> was "spent" creating a gravitational wave, much less three solar-masses
> worth, in this case.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 8:23 PM, John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 7:30 PM, Terren Suydam <
>> <terren.suy...@gmail.com>terren.suy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> ​ > ​
>>> As amazing as detecting the gravitational waves are, I'm actually more
>>> interested in what happens when those two black holes collide... is the
>>> resulting explosion entirely contained in the event horizon or is there any
>>> possibility that matter/energy can escape due to the high energies involved?
>>>
>>
>> ​It wasn't an explosion if anything it was an implosion and the results
>> were not contained within the event horizon, if they were we wouldn't have
>> been able to detect it. What we detected was a 36 solar mass black hole
>> merging with a 29 solar mass black hole and producing a 62 solar mass black
>> hole with the missing 3 solar masses being converted into energy in the
>> form of gravitational waves, which is what LIGO saw. It all happened in a
>> fifth of a second. If 3 solar masses had been converted to light instead of
>> gravitational waves during that fifth of a second it would have been
>> brighter than the rest of the universe put together.
>>
>>  John K Clark
>>
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-12 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 12:35 PM, Terren Suydam 
wrote:

​>​
> Thanks John, interesting. Does current theory make any predictions on how
> much energy (electro-magnetic and otherwise) actually is produced during
> ring-down, despite the inability to observe it due to the event horizon?
>

​No light or any other form of electromagnetic waves are produced and
that's why  nobody had ever seen it and it was all just theoretical and
nobody knew if it was true, until now. Einstein predicted that when 2 black
holes of those masses  and orbits merged gravitational waves with 3 solar
masses of energy would be produced in a fifth of a second, and that is
exactly what was observed. A better fit between theory and experiment would
be hard to find. Einstein was right yet again, the man was a natural born
winner.

 John K Clark

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-12 Thread Terren Suydam
If you were in one of the galaxies involved with the colliding black holes,
would you be close enough to the gravitational waves to feel them on any
kind of macroscopic level such as the one we inhabit?

On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 4:12 PM, John Clark  wrote:

>
> On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 12:35 PM, Terren Suydam 
> wrote:
>
> ​>​
>> Thanks John, interesting. Does current theory make any predictions on how
>> much energy (electro-magnetic and otherwise) actually is produced during
>> ring-down, despite the inability to observe it due to the event horizon?
>>
>
> ​No light or any other form of electromagnetic waves are produced and
> that's why  nobody had ever seen it and it was all just theoretical and
> nobody knew if it was true, until now. Einstein predicted that when 2 black
> holes of those masses  and orbits merged gravitational waves with 3 solar
> masses of energy would be produced in a fifth of a second, and that is
> exactly what was observed. A better fit between theory and experiment would
> be hard to find. Einstein was right yet again, the man was a natural born
> winner.
>
>  John K Clark
>
>
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-12 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 1:25 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List <
everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:

​> ​
> Yeah, I know, but I was wondering if because we are all about photons,
> earth-life, etc; I wondered if we will find interesting things that don't
> show up photometrically, visible light, ultraviolet, infrared, xrays, gamma
> rays. Like a magic gravity telescope that would see something out there in
> the dark.
>

​As far as we know it wouldn't produce any light and even of it did we
wouldn't know where to point the telescope. ​We know it happened 1 and a
quarter billion light years away but LIGO has very poor directional
resolution.

​ John K Clark​

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-12 Thread spudboy100 via Everything List
I also wonder how long it will take to develop refined gravity detectors and 
what this would uncover? If it takes centuries, wake me up when its over. I 
know we have detected neutrinos for decades, and I don't think any fundamental 
changes in cosmology has occured? Its always the sizzle of the steak that 
attracts attention I reckon.

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail


-Original Message-
From: John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com>
To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Feb 12, 2016 04:19 PM
Subject: Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!





On Fri, 
Feb 12, 2016 at 1:25 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List <mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com;>everything-list@googlegroups.com>
 wrote:
​> ​Yeah, I 
know, but I was wondering if because we are all about photons, earth-life, etc; 
I wondered if we will find interesting things that don't show up 
photometrically, visible light, ultraviolet, infrared, xrays, gamma rays. Like 
a magic gravity telescope that would see something out there in the dark.


​As far as we know it wouldn't produce any light and even of it did we 
wouldn't know where to point the telescope. ​We know it happened 1 and a 
quarter billion light years away but LIGO has very poor directional 
resolution.

​ John K 
Clark​

 



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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-12 Thread Brent Meeker
The interaction is gravitational. The first experimental evidence for 
gravitational waves was the correct derivation of the observed orbital 
decay of a double star due to energy radiated as gravitational waves.


Brent

On 2/12/2016 4:57 AM, Terren Suydam wrote:
I thought the gravitational waves were generated as the black holes 
rotated around one another, not (merely) as a consequence of the 
collision. Also, what kinds of interactions transfer the energy/mass 
of the black holes themselves into gravitational waves?  I wasn't 
aware that any energy was "spent" creating a gravitational wave, much 
less three solar-masses worth, in this case.




On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 8:23 PM, John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com 
<mailto:johnkcl...@gmail.com>> wrote:


On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 7:30 PM, Terren Suydam
<terren.suy...@gmail.com <mailto:terren.suy...@gmail.com>>wrote:

​ > ​
As amazing as detecting the gravitational waves are, I'm
actually more interested in what happens when those two black
holes collide... is the resulting explosion entirely contained
in the event horizon or is there any possibility that
matter/energy can escape due to the high energies involved?


​It wasn't an explosion if anything it was an implosion and the
results were not contained within the event horizon, if they were
we wouldn't have been able to detect it. What we detected was a
36 solar mass black hole merging with a 29 solar mass black
hole and producing a 62 solar mass black hole with the missing 3
solar masses being converted into energy in the form of
    gravitational waves, which is what LIGO saw. It all happened in a
fifth of a second. If 3 solar masses had been converted to light
instead of gravitational waves during that fifth of a second it
would have been brighter than the rest of the universe put together.

 John K Clark
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Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-11 Thread John Clark
On Sept. 14  at 4am the LIGO detector in Livingston Louisiana detected a
burst of gravitational waves, 7 milliseconds later the LIGO detector in
Hanford Washington detected the same thing. The possibility of this being
due to chance is vanishingly small. What they detected was 2 black holes
circling each other at 250 times a second, one was 36 times the mass of the
sun and the other 29 times. The entire signal only lasted for a fifth of a
second.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/12/science/ligo-gravitational-waves-black-holes-einstein.html
​

J​ohn K Clark

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-11 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 7:30 PM, Terren Suydam <terren.suy...@gmail.com>
wrote:


> ​> ​
> As amazing as detecting the gravitational waves are, I'm actually more
> interested in what happens when those two black holes collide... is the
> resulting explosion entirely contained in the event horizon or is there any
> possibility that matter/energy can escape due to the high energies involved?
>

​It wasn't an explosion if anything it was an implosion and the results
were not contained within the event horizon, if they were we wouldn't have
been able to detect it. What we detected was a 36 solar mass black hole
merging with a 29 solar mass black hole and producing a 62 solar mass black
hole with the missing 3 solar masses being converted into energy in the
form of gravitational waves, which is what LIGO saw. It all happened in a
fifth of a second. If 3 solar masses had been converted to light instead of
gravitational waves during that fifth of a second it would have been
brighter than the rest of the universe put together.

 John K Clark

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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-11 Thread Terren Suydam
Trying to picture two objects that massive rotating that quickly... wow. As
amazing as detecting the gravitational waves are, I'm actually more
interested in what happens when those two black holes collide... is the
resulting explosion entirely contained in the event horizon or is there any
possibility that matter/energy can escape due to the high energies involved?

On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 5:14 PM, Russell Standish <li...@hpcoders.com.au>
wrote:

> Fantastic news!
>
> On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 11:16:57AM -0500, John Clark wrote:
> > On Sept. 14  at 4am the LIGO detector in Livingston Louisiana detected a
> > burst of gravitational waves, 7 milliseconds later the LIGO detector in
> > Hanford Washington detected the same thing. The possibility of this being
> > due to chance is vanishingly small. What they detected was 2 black holes
> > circling each other at 250 times a second, one was 36 times the mass of
> the
> > sun and the other 29 times. The entire signal only lasted for a fifth of
> a
> > second.
> >
> >
> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/12/science/ligo-gravitational-waves-black-holes-einstein.html
> > ​
> >
> > J​ohn K Clark
> >
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> 
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> Principal, High Performance Coders
> Visiting Senior Research Fellowhpco...@hpcoders.com.au
> Economics, Kingston University http://www.hpcoders.com.au
>
> 
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-11 Thread Russell Standish
Fantastic news!

On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 11:16:57AM -0500, John Clark wrote:
> On Sept. 14  at 4am the LIGO detector in Livingston Louisiana detected a
> burst of gravitational waves, 7 milliseconds later the LIGO detector in
> Hanford Washington detected the same thing. The possibility of this being
> due to chance is vanishingly small. What they detected was 2 black holes
> circling each other at 250 times a second, one was 36 times the mass of the
> sun and the other 29 times. The entire signal only lasted for a fifth of a
> second.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/12/science/ligo-gravitational-waves-black-holes-einstein.html
> ​
> 
> J​ohn K Clark
> 
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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-11 Thread spudboy100 via Everything List
My thought is I wonder if its possible to create some kind of gravitational 
wave detector that can view objects that don't produce a lot of photons. Maybe 
there could be structures that wash out photonically, by the background 
radiation, but spike big time, as grav waves?

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail


-Original Message-
From: Russell Standish <li...@hpcoders.com.au>
To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Feb 11, 2016 05:14 PM
Subject: Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!


Fantastic news!

On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 11:16:57AM -0500, John Clark wrote:
> On Sept. 14  at 4am the LIGO detector in Livingston Louisiana detected a
> burst of gravitational waves, 7 milliseconds later the LIGO detector in
> Hanford Washington detected the same thing. The possibility of this being
> due to chance is vanishingly small. What they detected was 2 black holes
> circling each other at 250 times a second, one was 36 times the mass of the
> sun and the other 29 times. The entire signal only lasted for a fifth of a
> second.
> 
>  href="http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/12/science/ligo-gravitational-waves-black-holes-einstein.html;
>  
> target="_blank">http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/12/science/ligo-gravitational-waves-black-holes-einstein.html
> ​
> 
> J​ohn K Clark
> 
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target="_blank">http://www.hpcoders.com.au


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Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!

2016-02-11 Thread Brent Meeker
The LIGO detects gravitational waves - even from events that produce no 
photons.


Brent

On 2/11/2016 7:28 PM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
My thought is I wonder if its possible to create some kind of 
gravitational wave detector that can view objects that don't produce a 
lot of photons. Maybe there could be structures that wash out 
photonically, by the background radiation, but spike big time, as grav 
waves?


Sent from AOL Mobile Mail


-Original Message-
From: Russell Standish <li...@hpcoders.com.au>
To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Feb 11, 2016 05:14 PM
Subject: Re: Gravitational Waves Detected By LIGO!


Fantastic news!

On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 11:16:57AM -0500, John Clark wrote:
> On Sept. 14 at 4am the LIGO detector in Livingston Louisiana detected a
> burst of gravitational waves, 7 milliseconds later the LIGO detector in
> Hanford Washington detected the same thing. The possibility of this 
being

> due to chance is vanishingly small. What they detected was 2 black holes
> circling each other at 250 times a second, one was 36 times the mass 
of the
> sun and the other 29 times. The entire signal only lasted for a 
fifth of a

> second.
>
> 
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/12/science/ligo-gravitational-waves-black-holes-einstein.html

> ​
>
> J​ohn K Clark
>
> --
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everything-list@googlegroups.com 
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Visiting Senior Research Fellow hpco...@hpcoders.com.au 
<mailto:hpco...@hpcoders.com.au>

Economics, Kingston University http://www.hpcoders.com.au


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LIGO

2016-02-09 Thread John Clark
On Thursday at 10.30 EST (15.30GMT) the Laser Interferometer
Gravitation-Wave Observatory will announce if they've found gravitational
waves or not after its recent upgrade. Before the upgrade LIGO could detect
binary neutron star mergers 50 million light years away, after the upgrade
it could detect them 650 light years away, a volume over 2000 times larger.
The physics world is full of rumors.

 John K Clark

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Re: LIGO

2016-02-09 Thread Russell Standish
For one, gravity waves are a definite prediction of Einstein's General
Realativity. At some point, the sensitivity of gravity wave detectors
will be such that if they don't turn up, it will be a mjor
embarrassment for GR.

Then, if they do turn up, we can start to use it as another window on
the universe. For example, gravity wave detectors will be just the
pants to peer inside collisions of massive bodies such as neutron
stars and black holes. Also, it might give us good intelligence as to what's
going on in our galactic centre.

So yeah, if found, it'll be quite a big deal.

On Tue, Feb 09, 2016 at 02:44:48PM -0500, John Mikes wrote:
> What difference does it make (to us) if something happens 50 or 650 million
> lightyears away? - No matter if  _NOW_ or _THEN-in the deepest past_ .
> Iwould be less benevolent and call those "rumors' rather fantasy (even if
> supported by some human mathemaital considerations...)
> John M
> 
> On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 10:57 AM, John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > On Thursday at 10.30 EST (15.30GMT) the Laser Interferometer
> > Gravitation-Wave Observatory will announce if they've found gravitational
> > waves or not after its recent upgrade. Before the upgrade LIGO could detect
> > binary neutron star mergers 50 million light years away, after the
> > upgrade it could detect them 650 light years away, a volume over 2000 times
> > larger. The physics world is full of rumors.
> >
> >  John K Clark
> >
> > --
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Re: LIGO

2016-02-09 Thread John Mikes
What difference does it make (to us) if something happens 50 or 650 million
lightyears away? - No matter if  _NOW_ or _THEN-in the deepest past_ .
Iwould be less benevolent and call those "rumors' rather fantasy (even if
supported by some human mathemaital considerations...)
John M

On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 10:57 AM, John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thursday at 10.30 EST (15.30GMT) the Laser Interferometer
> Gravitation-Wave Observatory will announce if they've found gravitational
> waves or not after its recent upgrade. Before the upgrade LIGO could detect
> binary neutron star mergers 50 million light years away, after the
> upgrade it could detect them 650 light years away, a volume over 2000 times
> larger. The physics world is full of rumors.
>
>  John K Clark
>
> --
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Re: LIGO

2016-02-09 Thread Brent Meeker

And probably an even bigger deal if they aren't found.

Brent

On 2/9/2016 2:21 PM, Russell Standish wrote:

For one, gravity waves are a definite prediction of Einstein's General
Realativity. At some point, the sensitivity of gravity wave detectors
will be such that if they don't turn up, it will be a mjor
embarrassment for GR.

Then, if they do turn up, we can start to use it as another window on
the universe. For example, gravity wave detectors will be just the
pants to peer inside collisions of massive bodies such as neutron
stars and black holes. Also, it might give us good intelligence as to what's
going on in our galactic centre.

So yeah, if found, it'll be quite a big deal.

On Tue, Feb 09, 2016 at 02:44:48PM -0500, John Mikes wrote:

What difference does it make (to us) if something happens 50 or 650 million
lightyears away? - No matter if  _NOW_ or _THEN-in the deepest past_ .
Iwould be less benevolent and call those "rumors' rather fantasy (even if
supported by some human mathemaital considerations...)
John M

On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 10:57 AM, John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com> wrote:


On Thursday at 10.30 EST (15.30GMT) the Laser Interferometer
Gravitation-Wave Observatory will announce if they've found gravitational
waves or not after its recent upgrade. Before the upgrade LIGO could detect
binary neutron star mergers 50 million light years away, after the
upgrade it could detect them 650 light years away, a volume over 2000 times
larger. The physics world is full of rumors.

  John K Clark

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