Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-20 Thread Kim Jones
On 16 Apr 2015, at 11:03 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: But those who gave me the price in Paris The PRIZE K -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-20 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Apr 2015, at 09:15, Bruce Kellett wrote: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Friday, April 17, 2015, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: meekerdb wrote: On 4/15/2015 11:16 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: LizR wrote: snip Physicalism

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 18 Apr 2015, at 04:45, meekerdb wrote: On 4/17/2015 12:37 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Apr 2015, at 21:54, meekerdb wrote: On 4/16/2015 1:36 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: So consciousness is not 1-duplicable, but can be considered as having been duplicated in some 3-1-view, even before

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 18 Apr 2015, at 06:07, meekerdb wrote: On 4/17/2015 5:35 AM, Bruce Kellett wrote: If you had an actual Turing machine and unlimited time, you could by brute force emulate everything. However, that is not the point. If you car needs a part replaced, you don't need to get a replacement

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 18 Apr 2015, at 06:53, meekerdb wrote: On 4/17/2015 12:38 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Comp explains why this is impossible. The finest details of physics are given by sum on many computations, the finer the details, the more there are. To get the numbers right up to infinite decimals,

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Apr 2015, at 21:18, meekerdb wrote: On 4/16/2015 1:01 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Apr 2015, at 05:33, Bruce Kellett wrote: LizR wrote: On 16 April 2015 at 12:53, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: LizR wrote: On 15 April

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-17 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Friday, April 17, 2015, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: meekerdb wrote: On 4/15/2015 11:16 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: LizR wrote: On 16 April 2015 at 15:37, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Bruno has said to me that one

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Apr 2015, at 20:24, meekerdb wrote: On 4/15/2015 11:16 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: LizR wrote: On 16 April 2015 at 15:37, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Bruno has said to me that one cannot refute a scientific finding by

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-17 Thread Bruce Kellett
meekerdb wrote: On 4/15/2015 11:16 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: LizR wrote: On 16 April 2015 at 15:37, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Bruno has said to me that one cannot refute a scientific finding by philosophy. One cannot, of course,

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Apr 2015, at 19:19, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: the argument is that both copies are equally the same person as the original. No one assume that. John Clark assumes this, Of course I assume it, it's the only logical conclusion

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-17 Thread Bruce Kellett
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Friday, April 17, 2015, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: meekerdb wrote: On 4/15/2015 11:16 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: LizR wrote: On 16 April 2015 at 15:37, Bruce Kellett

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Apr 2015, at 21:18, meekerdb wrote: On 4/16/2015 1:11 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Apr 2015, at 02:52, meekerdb wrote: On 4/15/2015 5:29 PM, LizR wrote: On 15 April 2015 at 04:40, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/13/2015 11:31 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Le 14 avr. 2015

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Apr 2015, at 21:54, meekerdb wrote: On 4/16/2015 1:36 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: So consciousness is not 1-duplicable, but can be considered as having been duplicated in some 3-1-view, even before it diverges. How can it be considered duplicated before it diverges? By associating it

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Apr 2015, at 23:23, meekerdb wrote: On 4/16/2015 6:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Apr 2015, at 13:55, Bruce Kellett wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Apr 2015, at 01:51, Bruce Kellett wrote: Yes. I think that Bruno's treatment sometimes lacks philosophical sophistication.

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-17 Thread Bruce Kellett
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Friday, April 17, 2015, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Physicalism reduces to computationalism if the physics in the brain is Turing emulable, and then if you follow

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Apr 2015, at 07:12, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 2:36 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 16 Apr 2015, at 06:34, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 5:33 AM, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: LizR wrote: On

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-17 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Friday, April 17, 2015, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Friday, April 17, 2015, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: meekerdb wrote: On 4/15/2015 11:16 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote:

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-17 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Friday, April 17, 2015, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Friday, April 17, 2015, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: Physicalism reduces to computationalism if

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-17 Thread Bruce Kellett
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Friday, April 17, 2015, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Friday, April 17, 2015, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-17 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Friday, April 17, 2015, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Friday, April 17, 2015, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Friday, April 17, 2015, Bruce Kellett

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-17 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: Even if the laws of physics are deterministic and time-symmetric events would still not be time symmetrical if the initial condition was a state of minimum entropy because then any change in that state would lead to a increase in

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Apr 2015, at 18:55, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Friday, April 17, 2015, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Friday, April 17, 2015, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Stathis Papaioannou

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Apr 2015, at 14:35, Bruce Kellett wrote: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Friday, April 17, 2015, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Friday, April 17, 2015, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Apr 2015, at 08:26, Bruce Kellett wrote: meekerdb wrote: On 4/15/2015 11:16 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: LizR wrote: On 16 April 2015 at 15:37, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Bruno has said to me that one cannot refute a scientific

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-17 Thread meekerdb
On 4/17/2015 5:35 AM, Bruce Kellett wrote: If you had an actual Turing machine and unlimited time, you could by brute force emulate everything. However, that is not the point. If you car needs a part replaced, you don't need to get a replacement exactly the same down to the quantum level. This

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-17 Thread meekerdb
On 4/17/2015 12:38 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Comp explains why this is impossible. The finest details of physics are given by sum on many computations, the finer the details, the more there are. To get the numbers right up to infinite decimals, you need to run the entire dovetailer in a finite

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-17 Thread meekerdb
On 4/17/2015 12:35 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: But physics itself is not Turing emulable. The no-cloning theorem of quantum physics precludes it. Do you mean because you can't exactly copy a given physical state? That doesn't necessarily mean the physical world as a whole cannot

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-17 Thread meekerdb
On 4/17/2015 12:37 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Apr 2015, at 21:54, meekerdb wrote: On 4/16/2015 1:36 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: So consciousness is not 1-duplicable, but can be considered as having been duplicated in some 3-1-view, even before it diverges. How can it be considered

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-17 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Saturday, April 18, 2015, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/17/2015 12:35 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: But physics itself is not Turing emulable. The no-cloning theorem of quantum physics precludes it. Do you mean because you can't exactly copy a given physical state? That

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-16 Thread Bruce Kellett
LizR wrote: On 16 April 2015 at 15:37, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Bruno has said to me that one cannot refute a scientific finding by philosophy. One cannot, of course, refute a scientific observation by philosophy, but one can

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-16 Thread Bruce Kellett
Telmo Menezes wrote: On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 2:53 AM, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: LizR wrote: On 15 April 2015 at 10:15, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com mailto:johnkcl...@gmail.com mailto:johnkcl...@gmail.com

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-16 Thread LizR
On 15 April 2015 at 19:58, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: Bruno, I can go back as far as 2008 for such discussions with John Clark in my gmail archives about step 3... it's useless to continue to answer him (at least on your work, and surely on anything else), he will never accept

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-16 Thread LizR
On 16 April 2015 at 18:16, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: LizR wrote: On 16 April 2015 at 15:37, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Bruno has said to me that one cannot refute a scientific finding by philosophy. One

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-16 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 2:53 AM, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: LizR wrote: On 15 April 2015 at 10:15, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com mailto: johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: Yes but I'm confused, I though you were the one arguing that Bruno had discovered something new

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Apr 2015, at 05:33, Bruce Kellett wrote: LizR wrote: On 16 April 2015 at 12:53, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: LizR wrote: On 15 April 2015 at 10:15, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com mailto:johnkcl...@gmail.com

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Apr 2015, at 09:58, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2015-04-15 9:35 GMT+02:00 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be: On 15 Apr 2015, at 00:15, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: I predict that I will win 1 million dollar by tomorrow. I know my

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Apr 2015, at 02:52, meekerdb wrote: On 4/15/2015 5:29 PM, LizR wrote: On 15 April 2015 at 04:40, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/13/2015 11:31 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Le 14 avr. 2015 08:04, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com a écrit : Certainly some theories of

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Apr 2015, at 08:16, Bruce Kellett wrote: LizR wrote: On 16 April 2015 at 15:37, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Bruno has said to me that one cannot refute a scientific finding by philosophy. One cannot, of course, refute a

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Apr 2015, at 04:43, LizR wrote: On 16 April 2015 at 12:53, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: LizR wrote: On 15 April 2015 at 10:15, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com mailto:johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: Yes but I'm confused, I though you were the one arguing that Bruno

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Apr 2015, at 02:50, Bruce Kellett wrote: meekerdb wrote: On 4/15/2015 4:51 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: That then leads to the questions of personal identity. As a person, my consciousness changes from moment to moment with changing thoughts and external stimuli, but I remain the same

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-16 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 10:03 AM, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Telmo Menezes wrote: On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 2:53 AM, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: LizR wrote: On 15 April 2015 at 10:15, John Clark

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-16 Thread Telmo Menezes
My problem with any view based on entropy is that entropy doesn't appear to be fundamental to physics; it is the statistically likely result when objects are put in a certain configuration and allowed to evolve randomly. There is, however, an interesting parallel to be made with Shannon's

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Apr 2015, at 21:47, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2015-04-15 20:51 GMT+02:00 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net: On 4/14/2015 11:29 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2015-04-15 4:53 GMT+02:00 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net: On 4/14/2015 12:48 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: No, a miracle cannot be

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Apr 2015, at 01:51, Bruce Kellett wrote: meekerdb wrote: On 4/15/2015 12:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: But the question of the number of person is a different discussion. If you agree that the W-guy, who stays in W and marries a girl in W, is the same person as the guy in M, who

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Apr 2015, at 21:00, meekerdb wrote: On 4/15/2015 12:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 15 Apr 2015, at 01:58, Bruce Kellett wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 14 Apr 2015, at 03:26, Bruce Kellett wrote: It's stubborn, even if an illusion, eh? If you were duplicated, would you be

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 15 Apr 2015, at 21:30, meekerdb wrote: On 4/15/2015 12:09 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 15 Apr 2015, at 05:12, meekerdb wrote: On 4/14/2015 9:47 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2015-04-14 18:40 GMT+02:00 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net: On 4/13/2015 11:31 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Le 14

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Apr 2015, at 02:53, Bruce Kellett wrote: LizR wrote: On 15 April 2015 at 10:15, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com mailto:johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: Yes but I'm confused, I though you were the one arguing that Bruno had discovered something new under the sun, a new sort of

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Apr 2015, at 10:03, Bruce Kellett wrote: Telmo Menezes wrote: On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 2:53 AM, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: LizR wrote: On 15 April 2015 at 10:15, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-16 Thread Bruce Kellett
Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Apr 2015, at 01:51, Bruce Kellett wrote: Yes. I think that Bruno's treatment sometimes lacks philosophical sophistication. Computationalism is based on the idea that human consciousness is Turing emulable, This is an acceptable terming for some argument, but at

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Apr 2015, at 11:55, LizR wrote: On 15 April 2015 at 19:58, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: Bruno, I can go back as far as 2008 for such discussions with John Clark in my gmail archives about step 3... it's useless to continue to answer him (at least on your work, and

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Apr 2015, at 06:34, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 5:33 AM, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: LizR wrote: On 16 April 2015 at 12:53, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: LizR wrote: On

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-16 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Thursday, April 16, 2015, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 15 April 2015 at 19:58, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','allco...@gmail.com'); wrote: Bruno, I can go back as far as 2008 for such discussions with John Clark in my gmail archives about step 3...

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-16 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: the argument is that both copies are equally the same person as the original. No one assume that. John Clark assumes this, Of course I assume it, it's the only logical conclusion and I assume that logic is more likely to find

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-16 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: If the laws of physics are deterministic and time-symmetric Even if the laws of physics are deterministic and time-symmetric events would still not be time symmetrical if the initial condition was a state of minimum entropy because

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-16 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 16 Apr 2015, at 13:55, Bruce Kellett wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Apr 2015, at 01:51, Bruce Kellett wrote: Yes. I think that Bruno's treatment sometimes lacks philosophical sophistication. Computationalism is based on the idea that human consciousness is Turing emulable, This is

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-16 Thread meekerdb
On 4/16/2015 1:36 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: So consciousness is not 1-duplicable, but can be considered as having been duplicated in some 3-1-view, even before it diverges. How can it be considered duplicated before it diverges? By associating it with different token of the machinery

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-16 Thread meekerdb
On 4/16/2015 1:03 AM, Bruce Kellett wrote: Telmo Menezes wrote: On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 2:53 AM, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: LizR wrote: On 15 April 2015 at 10:15, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-16 Thread meekerdb
On 4/16/2015 1:11 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Apr 2015, at 02:52, meekerdb wrote: On 4/15/2015 5:29 PM, LizR wrote: On 15 April 2015 at 04:40, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/13/2015 11:31 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Le 14 avr. 2015 08:04,

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-16 Thread meekerdb
On 4/16/2015 1:01 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Apr 2015, at 05:33, Bruce Kellett wrote: LizR wrote: On 16 April 2015 at 12:53, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: LizR wrote: On 15 April 2015 at 10:15, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-16 Thread meekerdb
On 4/16/2015 6:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Apr 2015, at 13:55, Bruce Kellett wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Apr 2015, at 01:51, Bruce Kellett wrote: Yes. I think that Bruno's treatment sometimes lacks philosophical sophistication. Computationalism is based on the idea that human

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-16 Thread meekerdb
On 4/16/2015 9:54 AM, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: If the laws of physics are deterministic and time-symmetric Even if the laws of physics are deterministic and time-symmetric events would still not be time

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-16 Thread Platonist Guitar Cowboy
On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 2:36 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 16 Apr 2015, at 06:34, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 5:33 AM, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: LizR wrote: On 16 April 2015 at 12:53, Bruce Kellett

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-16 Thread LizR
On 17 April 2015 at 04:54, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: If the laws of physics are deterministic and time-symmetric Even if the laws of physics are deterministic and time-symmetric events would still not be time

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-16 Thread meekerdb
On 4/15/2015 11:16 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: LizR wrote: On 16 April 2015 at 15:37, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Bruno has said to me that one cannot refute a scientific finding by philosophy. One cannot, of course, refute a scientific

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-15 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: there a difference between the past and the future and if Many Worlds is correct then unlike the past there is nothing linear and nothing unique about Mr.You's future. Except the disciples of MWI insist that the SWE (without

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-15 Thread meekerdb
On 4/14/2015 11:29 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2015-04-15 4:53 GMT+02:00 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net: On 4/14/2015 12:48 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: No, a miracle cannot be logically contradictory. God cannot make a married bachelor.

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-15 Thread meekerdb
On 4/15/2015 12:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 15 Apr 2015, at 01:58, Bruce Kellett wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 14 Apr 2015, at 03:26, Bruce Kellett wrote: It's stubborn, even if an illusion, eh? If you were duplicated, would you be prepared to kill your duplicate? Who would you kill?

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-15 Thread meekerdb
On 4/15/2015 12:19 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 15 Apr 2015, at 08:33, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2015-04-15 5:12 GMT+02:00 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net: On 4/14/2015 9:47 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2015-04-14 18:40 GMT+02:00 meekerdb

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-15 Thread meekerdb
On 4/15/2015 12:09 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 15 Apr 2015, at 05:12, meekerdb wrote: On 4/14/2015 9:47 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2015-04-14 18:40 GMT+02:00 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net: On 4/13/2015 11:31 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Le 14 avr.

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-15 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2015-04-15 20:55 GMT+02:00 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net: On 4/14/2015 11:33 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2015-04-15 5:12 GMT+02:00 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net: On 4/14/2015 9:47 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2015-04-14 18:40 GMT+02:00 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net: On 4/13/2015

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-15 Thread meekerdb
On 4/14/2015 11:33 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2015-04-15 5:12 GMT+02:00 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net: On 4/14/2015 9:47 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2015-04-14 18:40 GMT+02:00 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net: On

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-15 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2015-04-15 20:51 GMT+02:00 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net: On 4/14/2015 11:29 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2015-04-15 4:53 GMT+02:00 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net: On 4/14/2015 12:48 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: No, a miracle cannot be logically contradictory. God cannot make a married

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-15 Thread meekerdb
On 4/15/2015 4:51 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: meekerdb wrote: On 4/15/2015 12:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: But the question of the number of person is a different discussion. If you agree that the W-guy, who stays in W and marries a girl in W, is the same person as the guy in M, who marries a

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-15 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: that's false that theologians (at least some) never say that god can't do self-contradictory thing. I think you're right, theologians do say such things. Have you even wondered why Thomas Jefferson insisted that the new

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-15 Thread Bruce Kellett
meekerdb wrote: On 4/15/2015 12:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: But the question of the number of person is a different discussion. If you agree that the W-guy, who stays in W and marries a girl in W, is the same person as the guy in M, who marries a woman in M, are the same person ... as the

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-15 Thread meekerdb
On 4/15/2015 3:37 PM, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com mailto:allco...@gmail.com wrote: .. Can God make a rock so heavy He can't lift it? I can image a being who transcend anything Wow, you can imagine that! I can't do it but you can use your

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-15 Thread LizR
On 15 April 2015 at 10:15, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: Yes but I'm confused, I though you were the one arguing that Bruno had discovered something new under the sun, a new sort of uncertainty That's hardly what Bruno is claiming. Step 3 is only a small step in a logical argument.

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-15 Thread meekerdb
On 4/15/2015 5:33 PM, LizR wrote: On 15 April 2015 at 05:40, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com mailto:johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 12:39 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com mailto:te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: My problem with any view based on

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-15 Thread LizR
On 16 April 2015 at 14:44, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 16 April 2015 at 09:51, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Yes. I think that Bruno's treatment sometimes lacks philosophical sophistication. A rigorous philosophical

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-15 Thread Platonist Guitar Cowboy
On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 5:33 AM, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: LizR wrote: On 16 April 2015 at 12:53, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: LizR wrote: On 15 April 2015 at 10:15, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-15 Thread Quentin Anciaux
Le 16 avr. 2015 01:04, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net a écrit : On 4/15/2015 3:37 PM, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: .. Can God make a rock so heavy He can't lift it? I can image a being who transcend anything Wow, you can imagine

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-15 Thread LizR
On 16 April 2015 at 12:52, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/15/2015 5:29 PM, LizR wrote: On 15 April 2015 at 04:40, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/13/2015 11:31 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Le 14 avr. 2015 08:04, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com a écrit :

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-15 Thread LizR
On 16 April 2015 at 12:59, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/15/2015 5:33 PM, LizR wrote: On 15 April 2015 at 05:40, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 12:39 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: My problem with any view based on

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-15 Thread LizR
On 15 April 2015 at 04:40, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/13/2015 11:31 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Le 14 avr. 2015 08:04, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com a écrit : Certainly some theories of consciousness might not allow copying, but that cannot be a logical

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-15 Thread LizR
On 15 April 2015 at 04:39, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: Hi Liz, Ok. I have an idea about that, it is probably not original. Tell me what you think: The universe was not created. All possible states just exist. The moment of the big bang is one of the many possible states.

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-15 Thread meekerdb
On 4/15/2015 5:50 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: meekerdb wrote: On 4/15/2015 4:51 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: That then leads to the questions of personal identity. As a person, my consciousness changes from moment to moment with changing thoughts and external stimuli, but I remain the same person.

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-15 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On 16 April 2015 at 09:51, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au javascript:; wrote: meekerdb wrote: On 4/15/2015 12:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: But the question of the number of person is a different discussion. If you agree that the W-guy, who stays in W and marries a girl in W, is the

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-15 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Right. Like AI's in separate but identical worlds. Don't you then run into the problem of the identity of indiscernibles? Yes exactly, that idea of Leibniz has proved to be amazingly useful. If you exchanged the position

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-15 Thread Bruce Kellett
LizR wrote: On 16 April 2015 at 12:53, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: LizR wrote: On 15 April 2015 at 10:15, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com mailto:johnkcl...@gmail.com mailto:johnkcl...@gmail.com

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-15 Thread LizR
On 16 April 2015 at 15:37, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Bruno has said to me that one cannot refute a scientific finding by philosophy. One cannot, of course, refute a scientific observation by philosophy, but one can certainly enter a philosophical discussion of the meaning

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-15 Thread meekerdb
On 4/15/2015 5:29 PM, LizR wrote: On 15 April 2015 at 04:40, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 4/13/2015 11:31 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Le 14 avr. 2015 08:04, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com mailto:stath...@gmail.com a écrit :

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-15 Thread LizR
On 15 April 2015 at 04:36, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote: If I commit suicide the illusion of persisting through time is destroyed. Whenever somebody says X is an illusion the first question that should be asked

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-15 Thread LizR
On 15 April 2015 at 05:40, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 12:39 PM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: My problem with any view based on entropy is that entropy doesn't appear to be fundamental to physics; it is the statistically likely result when

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-15 Thread Bruce Kellett
meekerdb wrote: On 4/15/2015 4:51 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: That then leads to the questions of personal identity. As a person, my consciousness changes from moment to moment with changing thoughts and external stimuli, but I remain the same person. Can two spatially distinct consciousnesses

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-15 Thread Bruce Kellett
meekerdb wrote: On 4/15/2015 5:50 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: meekerdb wrote: On 4/15/2015 4:51 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: That then leads to the questions of personal identity. As a person, my consciousness changes from moment to moment with changing thoughts and external stimuli, but I remain

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-15 Thread Bruce Kellett
LizR wrote: On 16 April 2015 at 14:44, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 16 April 2015 at 09:51, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote:

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-15 Thread LizR
On 16 April 2015 at 12:53, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: LizR wrote: On 15 April 2015 at 10:15, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com mailto: johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: Yes but I'm confused, I though you were the one arguing that Bruno had discovered something new under

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-15 Thread Bruce Kellett
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 16 April 2015 at 09:51, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Yes. I think that Bruno's treatment sometimes lacks philosophical sophistication. A rigorous philosophical analysis usually starts with a definition, I disagree. Philosophical discussion

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-15 Thread Bruce Kellett
LizR wrote: On 15 April 2015 at 10:15, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com mailto:johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: Yes but I'm confused, I though you were the one arguing that Bruno had discovered something new under the sun, a new sort of uncertainty That's hardly what Bruno is claiming.

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-15 Thread meekerdb
On 4/15/2015 9:02 AM, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: there a difference between the past and the future and if Many Worlds is correct then unlike the past there is nothing linear and nothing unique

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