Re:The difference between a human and a rock
How does a human differ in kind from a rock? -Well both are well modelled as being slow processes (i.e. localized states and events) in spacetime. - A process is a particular kind of pattern of organization of some subregion of spacetime. - We share being made of similar kinds of matter particles that stay close to each other in spacetime for some finite time period, and some finite spatial extent. Oh, but you said how do we differ? Well, a human roganism is a sub-unit of a longer-lived species pattern within an organic emergent system eco-system pattern. A rock does not appear to have that much complexity of form and autopoietic function. A rock is one of those kind of local spacetime patterns or systems that doesn't have much choice about how it is. The laws of physics, and the nature of the rock's components and the thermodynamics of its vicinity are such that it pretty much collects into how it's going to be at some time, then is physically constrained to stay just that way, at macro scales anyhow, for a long period of time. Of course, being a big physical process pattern subject to the laws of thermodynamics, it is, actually, changing, and usually dissipating (disorganizing), just very, very slowly. A human organism pattern is existing at a thermodynamic range internally, and in a thermodynamic regime in its environment, that allows for more options. for how (and e.g. where) to be (over short time scales.) Interestingly, this makes for the presence of all kinds of other similar organic patterns with options, and interesting behaviours (like eating you for dinner, or infecting you and eating your cell structure.) In other words, this thermodynamic regime, and the particular kinds of atoms and chemical bonds in ecosystems, make for active competition for which should be the dominant pattern of organization of matter and energy in the vicinity. i.e. You can't always just be a rock, because there might be a creature with a hammer wanting to break you down into cement. Or you can't live for ever, as an organism, because something else wants to re-pattern your matter and energy; that is, the matter and energy your pattern has competed successfully to borrow for its form for a while. Clear as oozing primordial subterranean sulphur-vent mud? Ok but here's the interesting part of the story. Because there are options for how to be i.e. how to hold together at our organic ecosystem thermodynamic regime, there is pattern-competition for who is the most auto-poietic (i.e. what forms of matter and energy collection can hold together best, at the expense of others). And it turns out that life-like ecosystem patterns, species patterns, and organism patterns win out for a time, precisely because their main function is autopoiesis, and they eventually, through natural selection, get very good at it. And it may turn out that the way you survive best as a pattern in spacetime, assuming you have a certain thermodynamic range to work with, is to store inside yourself INFORMATION about that which is outside yourself and nearby. i.e. about your environment. In otherwords, pattern, if you want to live, get out there and start RE-PRESENTING aspects of your environment WITHIN YOURSELF (in some partly abstract form within some aspect of your own form.) Eventually, if you do that, simple representation of your environment. Ouch that hurt. I'm going to flail the other way outa here. or hmmm, my complex molecules like the smell and molecular fit of YOUR complex molecules will give way to complex representation within the organism of its environment, and complex action plans to be carried out to protect the organism (and its kin's) pattern from nastier aspects of the environment. So we get Hmmm. I think that guy and his army is out to get me and mine. I think I will pre-emptively strike on that other guy's country because he vaguely looks like the first guy. Ok, bad example. or you get Hmmm. What an intelligent (accurate environment-representer), capable (effective environment modifier and pacifier), and beautiful (pattern-form-average-conformant) woman she is. I'll ask her to marry me. Or something like that. And that's the major difference between humans and rocks. Our thermodynamic regime necessitates that we navigate options for our existence/non-existence as stable patterns by representing informationally, then navigating and affecting, our surrounding space, time, matter, and energy forms. Eric Hal Ruhl wrote: Hi Stephen: Observers: In this venue dances interact and change each other discontinuously by mutual collision or by exchanging smaller dances. How then does a human differ in kind from a rock? Should we expect them to differ in kind? Yours Hal
Re: Re:The difference between a human and a rock
Eric, an apology: I just misplaced a remark to this post of yours into my response to Eugen as a PS. Please forgive John Mikes - Original Message - From: Eric Hawthorne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2004 3:03 AM Subject: Re:The difference between a human and a rock How does a human differ in kind from a rock? -Well both are well modelled as being slow processes (i.e. localized states and events) in spacetime. - A process is a particular kind of pattern of organization of some subregion of spacetime. - We share being made of similar kinds of matter particles that stay close to each other in spacetime for some finite time period, and some finite spatial extent. Oh, but you said how do we differ? Well, a human roganism is a sub-unit of a longer-lived species pattern within an organic emergent system eco-system pattern. A rock does not appear to have that much complexity of form and autopoietic function. A rock is one of those kind of local spacetime patterns or systems that doesn't have much choice about how it is. The laws of physics, and the nature of the rock's components and the thermodynamics of its vicinity are such that it pretty much collects into how it's going to be at some time, then is physically constrained to stay just that way, at macro scales anyhow, for a long period of time. Of course, being a big physical process pattern subject to the laws of thermodynamics, it is, actually, changing, and usually dissipating (disorganizing), just very, very slowly. A human organism pattern is existing at a thermodynamic range internally, and in a thermodynamic regime in its environment, that allows for more options. for how (and e.g. where) to be (over short time scales.) Interestingly, this makes for the presence of all kinds of other similar organic patterns with options, and interesting behaviours (like eating you for dinner, or infecting you and eating your cell structure.) In other words, this thermodynamic regime, and the particular kinds of atoms and chemical bonds in ecosystems, make for active competition for which should be the dominant pattern of organization of matter and energy in the vicinity. i.e. You can't always just be a rock, because there might be a creature with a hammer wanting to break you down into cement. Or you can't live for ever, as an organism, because something else wants to re-pattern your matter and energy; that is, the matter and energy your pattern has competed successfully to borrow for its form for a while. Clear as oozing primordial subterranean sulphur-vent mud? Ok but here's the interesting part of the story. Because there are options for how to be i.e. how to hold together at our organic ecosystem thermodynamic regime, there is pattern-competition for who is the most auto-poietic (i.e. what forms of matter and energy collection can hold together best, at the expense of others). And it turns out that life-like ecosystem patterns, species patterns, and organism patterns win out for a time, precisely because their main function is autopoiesis, and they eventually, through natural selection, get very good at it. And it may turn out that the way you survive best as a pattern in spacetime, assuming you have a certain thermodynamic range to work with, is to store inside yourself INFORMATION about that which is outside yourself and nearby. i.e. about your environment. In otherwords, pattern, if you want to live, get out there and start RE-PRESENTING aspects of your environment WITHIN YOURSELF (in some partly abstract form within some aspect of your own form.) Eventually, if you do that, simple representation of your environment. Ouch that hurt. I'm going to flail the other way outa here. or hmmm, my complex molecules like the smell and molecular fit of YOUR complex molecules will give way to complex representation within the organism of its environment, and complex action plans to be carried out to protect the organism (and its kin's) pattern from nastier aspects of the environment. So we get Hmmm. I think that guy and his army is out to get me and mine. I think I will pre-emptively strike on that other guy's country because he vaguely looks like the first guy. Ok, bad example. or you get Hmmm. What an intelligent (accurate environment-representer), capable (effective environment modifier and pacifier), and beautiful (pattern-form-average-conformant) woman she is. I'll ask her to marry me. Or something like that. And that's the major difference between humans and rocks. Our thermodynamic regime necessitates that we navigate options for our existence/non-existence as stable patterns by representing informationally, then navigating and affecting, our surrounding space, time, matter, and energy forms. Eric Hal Ruhl wrote: Hi Stephen
Re:The difference between a human and a rock
Hi Eric: At 03:03 AM 4/17/2004, you wrote: How does a human differ in kind from a rock? -Well both are well modelled as being slow processes (i.e. localized states and events) in spacetime. - A process is a particular kind of pattern of organization of some subregion of spacetime. - We share being made of similar kinds of matter particles that stay close to each other in spacetime for some finite time period, and some finite spatial extent. I am trying to stay at the level of the cells. Particles and spacetime would be emergent interpretations of the activity at the cell level. Activity as stated in earlier posts is a consequent of the effort to construct the system only from cf-counterfactuals. Oh, but you said how do we differ? Well, a human roganism is a sub-unit of a longer-lived species pattern within an organic emergent system eco-system pattern. A rock does not appear to have that much complexity of form and autopoietic function. Size, duration, and complexity are not a difference of kind in my description, but rather one of degree. Neither autopoietic nor sympoietic seems to fit well as an adjective here as near as I can tell. As to reproduction dances that are rocks shed small dances [sand and clay] that under the right progression become rocks again - dances that are humans do the same. A rock is one of those kind of local spacetime patterns or systems that doesn't have much choice about how it is. The unit of a dance is that a cell polls its nearest neighbors and the result determines its next state. While some patterns and rules may result in larger scale emergent coordinations I do not see that choice can emerge. The laws of physics, and the nature of the rock's components and the thermodynamics of its vicinity are such that it pretty much collects into how it's going to be at some time, then is physically constrained to stay just that way, at macro scales anyhow, for a long period of time. Of course, being a big physical process pattern subject to the laws of thermodynamics, it is, actually, changing, and usually dissipating (disorganizing), just very, very slowly. Physics is just emergent from the unit of the dance. snip Dances can shed and absorb smaller dances. This process changes dances. It can cause dances to shift towards or away from another dance that is shedding dances. It can sustain or terminate dances. I see nothing in the rest of your post that makes my believe there is a difference of kind between rocks and humans. Yours Hal
