Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-11-02 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 2:51 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: But you can't stay awake unless your hardware allows it. So what? I can't shoot a gun unless the trigger works. Does that mean I'm not shooting the gun by pulling the trigger? You are external to the gun, but you

Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-11-02 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, November 2, 2012 8:18:29 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 2:51 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: But you can't stay awake unless your hardware allows it. So what? I can't shoot a gun unless the trigger works. Does that mean I'm

Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-11-01 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 3:44 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: I'm talking about *every experiment* that has been done. There is nothing to misunderstand. When I change my mind, through my own thought or though some image or suggestion, that change is reflected as a passive

Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-11-01 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, November 1, 2012 8:43:07 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 3:44 AM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: I'm talking about *every experiment* that has been done. There is nothing to misunderstand. When I change my mind, through my own

Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-11-01 Thread meekerdb
On 11/1/2012 8:19 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: You have already explained it over and over. You aren't listening to me. I understand every bit of your argument. It is my argument that you don't understand. I used to believe what you believe. I know better now. The question is how do you know

Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-11-01 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 12:19 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: On Thursday, November 1, 2012 8:43:07 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 3:44 AM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comwrote: I'm talking about *every experiment* that has been done. There is nothing

Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-11-01 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, November 1, 2012 10:03:18 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 11/1/2012 8:19 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: You have already explained it over and over. You aren't listening to me. I understand every bit of your argument. It is my argument that you don't understand. I used to

Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-11-01 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, November 1, 2012 10:03:21 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 12:19 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: On Thursday, November 1, 2012 8:43:07 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 3:44 AM, Craig Weinberg

Re: Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-30 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 3:25 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Stathis Papaioannou Building more complex structures out of simpler ones by a simple set of rules (or any set of rules) seems to violate the second law of thermodynamics. Do you have a way around the second law ?

Re: Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-29 Thread Roger Clough
of small things. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/29/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stathis Papaioannou Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-28, 05:47:58 Subject: Re: Solipsism = 1p On Sun, Oct

Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-29 Thread John Mikes
*Bruno*, I cannot keep up with argumentation that includes opposites to ALL tenets previously stated. Who knows what kind of *'hardwire* does a brain have (I mean: not the physiological tissue-construct, but the complex brain* function* also called 'brain). Anatomists, physiologists, neurologists

Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-28 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Sun, Oct 28, 2012 at 5:48 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: It seems that you do not understand the meaning of the term consistent with the laws of physics. It means that when you decide to play tennis the neurons in your brain will depolarise because of the ionic gradients,

Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-28 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 27 Oct 2012, at 17:49, John Mikes wrote: On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 at 9:18 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 26 Oct 2012, at 14:24, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, October 26, 2012 1:01:34 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 12:41 PM, Craig Weinberg

Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-28 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Sunday, October 28, 2012 5:48:29 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Sun, Oct 28, 2012 at 5:48 AM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: It seems that you do not understand the meaning of the term consistent with the laws of physics. It means that when you decide to play

Re: Re: Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-27 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 at 8:08 AM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Stathis: IMO you left out one difference in equating computer and human: the programmed comp. cannot exceed its hardwre - given content while (SOMEHOW???) a human mind receives additional information from parts 'unknown'

Re: Re: Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-27 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, October 27, 2012 6:28:14 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 at 8:08 AM, John Mikes jam...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: Stathis: IMO you left out one difference in equating computer and human: the programmed comp. cannot exceed its hardwre - given content

Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 26 Oct 2012, at 14:24, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, October 26, 2012 1:01:34 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 12:41 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com wrote: We are atoms, molecules, cells, tissues, and organisms. Whatever we do is what the laws of physics

Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-27 Thread Bruno Marchal
John, A fixed universal machine (some hardwired one, like a brain or a laptop) can emulate a self-modifying universal machine, even one which modifies itself completely. Bruno On 26 Oct 2012, at 23:08, John Mikes wrote: Stathis: IMO you left out one difference in equating computer and

Re: Re: Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-27 Thread John Mikes
Stathis, do you think Lucy had the same (thinking?) hardware as you have? are you negating (human and other) development (I evade 'evolution') as e.g. the famous cases of mutation? Is all that RD a reshuffling of what WAS already knowable? Maybe my agnosticism dictates different potentials at

Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-27 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, October 27, 2012 9:18:33 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 26 Oct 2012, at 14:24, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, October 26, 2012 1:01:34 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 12:41 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com wrote: We are atoms, molecules,

Re: Re: Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-27 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Sun, Oct 28, 2012 at 12:12 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: How can a human exceed his hardware? Everything he does must be due to the hardware plus input from the environment, same as the computer, same as everything else in the universe. What input from the environment

Re: Re: Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-27 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Sun, Oct 28, 2012 at 2:38 AM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Stathis, do you think Lucy had the same (thinking?) hardware as you have? are you negating (human and other) development (I evade 'evolution') as e.g. the famous cases of mutation? Is all that RD a reshuffling of what WAS

Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-27 Thread John Mikes
On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 at 9:18 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 26 Oct 2012, at 14:24, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, October 26, 2012 1:01:34 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 12:41 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com wrote: We are atoms, molecules,

Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-27 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 11:24 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comjavascript:; wrote: No. What we as humans do is determined by human experiences and human character, which is not completely ruled externally. We participate directly. It could only be a small set of rules if those rules

Re: Re: Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-27 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, October 27, 2012 11:47:14 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Sun, Oct 28, 2012 at 12:12 AM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: How can a human exceed his hardware? Everything he does must be due to the hardware plus input from the environment, same as the

Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-27 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, October 27, 2012 1:03:52 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 11:24 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: No. What we as humans do is determined by human experiences and human character, which is not completely ruled externally. We participate

Re: Re: Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-26 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, October 26, 2012 1:01:34 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 12:41 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: We are atoms, molecules, cells, tissues, and organisms. Whatever we do is what the laws of physics *actually are*. Your assumptions

Re: Re: Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-26 Thread John Mikes
Stathis: IMO you left out one difference in equating computer and human: the programmed comp. cannot exceed its hardwre - given content while (SOMEHOW???) a human mind receives additional information from parts 'unknown' (see the steps forward in cultural history of the sciences?) - accordingly a

Re: Re: Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-25 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 11:28 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: If you believed that our brains were already nothing but computers, then you would say that it would know which option to take the same way that Google knows which options to show you. I argue that can only get you

Re: Re: Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-25 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, October 25, 2012 6:25:48 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 11:28 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: If you believed that our brains were already nothing but computers, then you would say that it would know which option to take the

Re: Re: Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-25 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 10:14 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Intentionally lying, defying it's programming, committing murder would all be good indicators. Generally when an error is blamed on the computer itself rather than the programming, that would be a good sign. A

Re: Re: Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-25 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, October 25, 2012 7:39:27 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 10:14 AM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: Intentionally lying, defying it's programming, committing murder would all be good indicators. Generally when an error is blamed on

Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-25 Thread meekerdb
On 10/25/2012 4:38 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 10:14 AM, Craig Weinbergwhatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Intentionally lying, defying it's programming, committing murder would all be good indicators. Generally when an error is blamed on the computer itself rather than

Re: Re: Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-25 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 11:00 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: On Thursday, October 25, 2012 7:39:27 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 10:14 AM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com wrote: Intentionally lying, defying it's programming, committing murder would

Re: Re: Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-25 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 12:41 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: We are atoms, molecules, cells, tissues, and organisms. Whatever we do is what the laws of physics *actually are*. Your assumptions about the laws of physics are 20th century legacy ideas based on exterior

Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-24 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 23 Oct 2012, at 15:11, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal SNIP ROGER: OK, but computers can't experience anything, it would be simulated experience. Not arbitrarily available. But that's what the brain does, simulate experience from the point of view of the owner or liver of the

Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-24 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 23 Oct 2012, at 17:46, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, October 23, 2012 10:15:15 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 22 Oct 2012, at 18:49, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, October 22, 2012 12:28:41 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: But that's what the brain does, simulate experience

Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-24 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 23 Oct 2012, at 20:21, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/23/2012 10:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 22 Oct 2012, at 18:49, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, October 22, 2012 12:28:41 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: But that's what the brain does, simulate experience from the point of view

Re: Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-24 Thread Roger Clough
the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-24, 07:37:32 Subject: Re: Solipsism = 1p On 23 Oct 2012, at 15:11, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal ROGER: OK, but computers can't experience anything, it would be simulated experience

Re: Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-24 Thread Roger Clough
-10-24, 08:57:19 Subject: Re: Solipsism = 1p On 23 Oct 2012, at 20:21, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/23/2012 10:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 22 Oct 2012, at 18:49, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, October 22, 2012 12:28:41 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: But that's what

Re: Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-24 Thread Roger Clough
- From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-23, 14:40:32 Subject: Re: Solipsism = 1p On Tuesday, October 23, 2012 2:21:30 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 10/23/2012 10:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 22 Oct 2012, at 18:49, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday

Re: Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-24 Thread Roger Clough
- From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-23, 14:21:44 Subject: Re: Solipsism = 1p On 10/23/2012 10:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 22 Oct 2012, at 18:49, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, October 22, 2012 12:28:41 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote

Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-24 Thread Bruno Marchal
Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-24, 08:57:19 Subject: Re: Solipsism = 1p On 23 Oct 2012, at 20:21, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/23/2012 10:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 22 Oct 2012, at 18:49, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, October 22, 2012 12:28:41 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal

Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-24 Thread Stephen P. King
On 10/24/2012 10:01 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King How can you know that the simulation is exact ? Solipsim prevents that. And who or what experiences the computer output ? Roger Clough,rclo...@verizon.net 10/24/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody

Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-24 Thread Bruno Marchal
content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-24, 07:37:32 Subject: Re: Solipsism = 1p On 23 Oct 2012, at 15:11, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal ROGER: OK, but computers can't experience anything, it would be simulated experience. Not arbitrarily available

Re: Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-23 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal SNIP ROGER: OK, but computers can't experience anything, it would be simulated experience. Not arbitrarily available. But that's what the brain does, simulate experience from the point of view of the owner or liver of the experience. According to some theory. You

Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-23 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 22 Oct 2012, at 18:49, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, October 22, 2012 12:28:41 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: But that's what the brain does, simulate experience from the point of view of the owner or liver of the experience. According to some theory. You can't talk like if you knew

Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-23 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, October 23, 2012 10:15:15 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 22 Oct 2012, at 18:49, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, October 22, 2012 12:28:41 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: But that's what the brain does, simulate experience from the point of view of the owner or liver

Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-23 Thread Stephen P. King
On 10/23/2012 10:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 22 Oct 2012, at 18:49, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, October 22, 2012 12:28:41 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: But that's what the brain does, simulate experience from the point of view of the owner or liver of the experience.

Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-23 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, October 23, 2012 2:21:30 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 10/23/2012 10:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 22 Oct 2012, at 18:49, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, October 22, 2012 12:28:41 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: But that's what the brain does, simulate

Re: Re: Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-22 Thread Roger Clough
being too demanding. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/22/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-21, 16:53:03 Subject: Re: Re: Solipsism = 1p

Re: Re: Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-22 Thread Craig Weinberg
is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-21, 16:53:03 Subject: Re: Re: Solipsism = 1p On Sunday, October 21, 2012 3:39:11 PM UTC-4, rclough wrote: BRUNO: Keep

Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-22 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 21 Oct 2012, at 21:37, Roger Clough wrote: On 20 Oct 2012, at 13:55, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal I think if you converse with a real person, he has to have a body or at least vocal chords or the ability to write. BRUNO: Not necessarily. Its brain can be in vat, and then I

Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-22 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Monday, October 22, 2012 12:28:41 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: But that's what the brain does, simulate experience from the point of view of the owner or liver of the experience. According to some theory. You can't talk like if you knew that this is false. This is the

Re: Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-21 Thread Roger Clough
:09:59 Subject: Re: Solipsism = 1p On 18 Oct 2012, at 20:05, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal I think you can tell is 1p isn't just a shell by trying to converse with it. If it can converse, it's got a mind of its own. I agree with. It has mind, and its has a soul (but he

Re: Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-21 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Sunday, October 21, 2012 3:39:11 PM UTC-4, rclough wrote: BRUNO: Keep in mind that zombie, here, is a technical term. By definition it behaves like a human. No humans at all can tell the difference. Only God knows, if you want. ROGER: I claim that it is impossible for any

Re: Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-20 Thread Roger Clough
: Solipsism = 1p On 18 Oct 2012, at 20:05, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal I think you can tell is 1p isn't just a shell by trying to converse with it. If it can converse, it's got a mind of its own. I agree with. It has mind, and its has a soul (but he has no real bodies. I can argue

Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-20 Thread Bruno Marchal
content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-19, 14:09:59 Subject: Re: Solipsism = 1p On 18 Oct 2012, at 20:05, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal I think you can tell is 1p isn't just a shell by trying to converse with it. If it can converse, it's got a mind of its

Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-19 Thread Bruno Marchal
, rclo...@verizon.net 10/18/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-17, 13:36:13 Subject: Re: Solipsism = 1p On 17 Oct 2012, at 13:07, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno

Re: Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-18 Thread Roger Clough
- From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-17, 13:36:13 Subject: Re: Solipsism = 1p On 17 Oct 2012, at 13:07, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Solipsism is a property of 1p= Firstness = subjectivity OK. And non solipsism is about attributing 1p to others, which

Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-17 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Solipsism is a property of 1p= Firstness = subjectivity Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/17/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Alberto G. Corona Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-16,

Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-17 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Oct 2012, at 13:07, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Solipsism is a property of 1p= Firstness = subjectivity OK. And non solipsism is about attributing 1p to others, which needs some independent 3p reality you can bet one, for not being only part of yourself. Be it a God, or a