RE: evidence blindness

2006-08-28 Thread Colin Hales
-Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Nyman Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 7:33 AM To: Everything List Subject: Re: evidence blindness [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We all (excuse me to use 1st pers form

RE: evidence blindness

2006-08-27 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
Colin Hales writes: the fact that intelligent behaviour is third person observable but consciousness is not. Stathis Papaioannou OK. Let me get this straight. Scientist A stares at something, say X, with consciousness. A sees X. Scientist A posits evidence of X from a third

Re: evidence blindness

2006-08-27 Thread Benjamin Udell
. It sounds like you have some further, and more-specific, ideas, which are the real energy source behind your argument. Best, Ben Udell - Original Message - From: Colin Hales [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 11:29 PM Subject: RE: evidence

Re: evidence blindness

2006-08-27 Thread Brent Meeker
Colin Hales wrote: Most of the time I'm observing something else. When I try to observe consciouness, I find I am instead thinking of this or that particular thing, and not consciousness itself. Consciousness can only be consciousness *of* something. Got that? Brent Meeker Absolutely.

RE: evidence blindness

2006-08-27 Thread Colin Geoffrey Hales
(a) I know I'm conscious (b) I know that you are intelligent, unless my senses are tricking me (c) I assume that you are conscious but I don't know this, even if I can be sure my senses are not tricking me, in the same way as I know (a) and (b). To give another example, we know that many

Re: evidence blindness

2006-08-27 Thread Colin Geoffrey Hales
culture and discipline blindness. Is seeing visible? What does it look like? Brent Meeker Seeing. Keep trying...you'll 'see it' It'll sink in eventually! It took a long time for me and I'm nowhere near as bright as all you folks. Colin Hales

Re: evidence blindness

2006-08-27 Thread Colin Geoffrey Hales
Colin, list, huge snip But, past a certain point, going over all these generalities stops advancing the point and makes me sound fuddy-duddy. It sounds like you have some further, and more-specific, ideas, which are the real energy source behind your argument. Best, Ben Udell Wow! Can

Re: evidence blindness

2006-08-27 Thread jamikes
] To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 10:29 PM Subject: Re: evidence blindness Colin, Stathis, Brent, 1. I think we need to distinguish a cybernetic, self-adjusting system like a sidewinder missile, from an inference-processing, self-_redesigning_ system like

Re: evidence blindness

2006-08-27 Thread 1Z
Colin Geoffrey Hales wrote: a) The belief in a fictional 'objective view'. This is a view that is never had by anyone. I don't think the view metaphior is very helpful. There are more or less objective beliefs. What is subjective about 2+2=4 ?

Re: evidence blindness

2006-08-27 Thread jamikes
- Original Message - From: 1Z [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 12:14 PM Subject: Re: evidence blindness Colin Geoffrey Hales wrote: a) The belief in a fictional 'objective view'. This is a view that is never

Re: evidence blindness

2006-08-27 Thread 1Z
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: 1Z [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 12:14 PM Subject: Re: evidence blindness Colin Geoffrey Hales wrote: a) The belief in a fictional 'objective view

Re: evidence blindness

2006-08-27 Thread David Nyman
PROTECTED] To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 10:29 PM Subject: Re: evidence blindness Colin, Stathis, Brent, 1. I think we need to distinguish a cybernetic, self-adjusting system like a sidewinder missile, from an inference-processing, self-_redesigning_

Re: evidence blindness

2006-08-26 Thread Colin Geoffrey Hales
the fact that intelligent behaviour is third person observable but consciousness is not. Stathis Papaioannou OK. Let me get this straight. Scientist A stares at something, say X, with consciousness. A sees X. Scientist A posits evidence of X from a third person viewpoint. Scientist A

Re: evidence blindness

2006-08-26 Thread Brent Meeker
Colin Geoffrey Hales wrote: the fact that intelligent behaviour is third person observable but consciousness is not. Stathis Papaioannou OK. Let me get this straight. Scientist A stares at something, say X, with consciousness. A sees X. Scientist A posits evidence of X from a third

RE: evidence blindness

2006-08-26 Thread Colin Hales
-Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brent Meeker Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 9:49 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: evidence blindness Colin Geoffrey Hales wrote: the fact

Re: evidence blindness

2006-08-26 Thread Benjamin Udell
- From: Colin Hales [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 9:09 PM Subject: RE: evidence blindness -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brent Meeker Sent: Sunday

RE: evidence blindness

2006-08-26 Thread Colin Hales
Dear Benjamin and folks, Your words capture a whole bunch of valuable stuff. In a project to define a comprehensive standard for 'scientific method' it would be very useful input. The particulars involved here, however, are about the basic reality that all scientific behaviour is grounded in

Re: evidence blindness

2006-08-26 Thread Brent Meeker
Colin Hales wrote: -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brent Meeker Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 9:49 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: evidence blindness Colin Geoffrey Hales wrote

RE: evidence blindness

2006-08-26 Thread Colin Hales
Most of the time I'm observing something else. When I try to observe consciouness, I find I am instead thinking of this or that particular thing, and not consciousness itself. Consciousness can only be consciousness *of* something. Got that? Brent Meeker Absolutely. Intrinsic