Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-03-08 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 7 Mar 2019, at 22:13, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 3/7/2019 8:57 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 6 Mar 2019, at 20:57, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 3/6/2019 5:48 AM, Bruno

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-03-07 Thread 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List
On 3/7/2019 8:57 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 6 Mar 2019, at 20:57, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: On 3/6/2019 5:48 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Every time I mention this you strike back at the straw man of primitive matter...which I

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-03-07 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 6 Mar 2019, at 20:57, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 3/6/2019 5:48 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> Every time I mention this you strike back at the straw man of primitive >>> matter...which I never refer to. >> But then, why do you criticise the theorem? Maybe you

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-03-06 Thread 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List
On 3/6/2019 5:48 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Every time I mention this you strike back at the straw man of primitive matter...which I never refer to. But then, why do you criticise the theorem? Maybe you don’t? Bt then why are you saying that elementary arithmetic is not a TOE? It explain the

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-03-06 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 5 Mar 2019, at 20:01, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 3/5/2019 4:06 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> RNA, proteins, krebs cycle, and proton pumps are all necessary for that. >> >> That is carbon chauvinism, with all my respect. I am a lover of Krebs cycle, >> and

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-03-05 Thread 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List
On 3/5/2019 4:06 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: RNA, proteins, krebs cycle, and proton pumps are all necessary for that. That is carbon chauvinism, with all my respect. I am a lover of Krebs cycle, and even more Calvin cycle (in photosynthesis). My initial inspiration of Mechanism came from

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-03-05 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 2 Mar 2019, at 08:22, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 6:25:05 PM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 1 Mar 2019, at 09:28, Philip Thrift > >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 2:05:03 AM UTC-6, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> On Thursday,

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-03-05 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 1 Mar 2019, at 19:45, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 9:08:43 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 28 Feb 2019, at 22:47, Brent Meeker > >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On 2/28/2019 1:17 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >>> >>> >>> The best current philosopher of (and

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-03-05 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 4 Mar 2019, at 19:48, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 3/4/2019 3:45 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> Unconsciousness is an illusion of consciousness … It should be obvious that >> “being unconscious” cannot be a first person experience, for logical reason. >> To die is not a personal

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-03-05 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 4 Mar 2019, at 19:47, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 3/4/2019 3:45 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> I have had two relatives die of Alzheimers and they lost their identity >>> gradually as they lost memory. >> They lost they memory. Not their identity, but the apprehension of their >>

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-03-05 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 4 Mar 2019, at 19:46, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 3/4/2019 3:32 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> Snip > > A bacterium doesn't have Turing universiality, only bacteria in the > abstract of a potentially infinite set of evolving bacteria interacting > with

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-03-04 Thread Brent Meeker
On 3/4/2019 3:45 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Unconsciousness is an illusion of consciousness … It should be obvious that “being unconscious” cannot be a first person experience, for logical reason. To die is not a personal event. That happens only to the others. I agree.  Except I don't

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-03-04 Thread Brent Meeker
On 3/4/2019 3:45 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I have had two relatives die of Alzheimers and they lost their identity gradually as they lost memory. They lost they memory. Not their identity, but the apprehension of their identity. If not, when you ask where they are in the hospital, the

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-03-04 Thread Brent Meeker
On 3/4/2019 3:32 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 3 Mar 2019, at 20:15, Brent Meeker > wrote: On 3/3/2019 3:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 1 Mar 2019, at 21:36, Brent Meeker > wrote: On 3/1/2019 7:08 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-03-04 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 3 Mar 2019, at 20:23, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 3/3/2019 3:45 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> On 1 Mar 2019, at 23:21, Brent Meeker wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 3/1/2019 7:04 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The “minimal” consciousness require only a weak notion of self. It does

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-03-04 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 3 Mar 2019, at 20:15, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 3/3/2019 3:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 1 Mar 2019, at 21:36, Brent Meeker >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 3/1/2019 7:08 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > On 28 Feb 2019, at 22:47, Brent

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-03-03 Thread Brent Meeker
On 3/3/2019 3:45 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 1 Mar 2019, at 23:21, Brent Meeker wrote: On 3/1/2019 7:04 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The “minimal” consciousness require only a weak notion of self. It does not require memory, nor any sense. It is a highly dissociated state of consciousness.

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-03-03 Thread Brent Meeker
On 3/3/2019 3:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 1 Mar 2019, at 21:36, Brent Meeker > wrote: On 3/1/2019 7:08 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Feb 2019, at 22:47, Brent Meeker > wrote: On 2/28/2019 1:17 PM, Philip Thrift wrote:

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-03-03 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 1 Mar 2019, at 23:21, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 3/1/2019 7:04 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> The “minimal” consciousness require only a weak notion of self. It does not >> require memory, nor any sense. It is a highly dissociated state of >> consciousness. It is quite different

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-03-03 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 1 Mar 2019, at 21:36, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 3/1/2019 7:08 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 28 Feb 2019, at 22:47, Brent Meeker >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2/28/2019 1:17 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: The best current philosopher

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-03-01 Thread Philip Thrift
On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 6:25:05 PM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 1 Mar 2019, at 09:28, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 2:05:03 AM UTC-6, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 5:15:17 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-03-01 Thread Philip Thrift
On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 6:25:05 PM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 1 Mar 2019, at 00:15, Brent Meeker > > wrote: > > > > On 2/28/2019 3:00 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 4:34:54 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 2/28/2019 2:14 PM, Philip Thrift

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-03-01 Thread Brent Meeker
On 3/1/2019 7:18 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: You might be interested by this quite remarkable news: a 8 letters synthetic DNA, which seems to work well. If that is true, it really suggests that we all come from one bacteria, I think. It is amazing that all life use only the same 4 letters

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-03-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 1 Mar 2019, at 09:28, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 2:05:03 AM UTC-6, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 5:15:17 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: > > > On 2/28/2019 3:00 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-03-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 1 Mar 2019, at 00:15, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 2/28/2019 3:00 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 4:34:54 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: >> >> >> On 2/28/2019 2:14 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 3:48:04 PM UTC-6,

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-03-01 Thread Brent Meeker
On 3/1/2019 7:04 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The “minimal” consciousness require only a weak notion of self. It does not require memory, nor any sense. It is a highly dissociated state of consciousness. It is quite different from the usual mundane consciousness of the everyday life. How

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-03-01 Thread Philip Thrift
On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 2:36:06 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: > > > > On 3/1/2019 7:08 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 28 Feb 2019, at 22:47, Brent Meeker > > wrote: > > > > On 2/28/2019 1:17 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > The best current philosopher of (and writer about) consciousness is

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-03-01 Thread Brent Meeker
On 3/1/2019 7:08 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Feb 2019, at 22:47, Brent Meeker > wrote: On 2/28/2019 1:17 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: The best current philosopher of (and writer about) consciousness is *Galen Strawson*.

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-03-01 Thread Philip Thrift
On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 9:08:43 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 28 Feb 2019, at 22:47, Brent Meeker > > wrote: > > > > On 2/28/2019 1:17 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > The best current philosopher of (and writer about) consciousness is *Galen > Strawson*. > >

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-03-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 28 Feb 2019, at 22:47, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 2/28/2019 1:17 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> The best current philosopher of (and writer about) consciousness is Galen >> Strawson. >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galen_Strawson >>

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-03-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 28 Feb 2019, at 21:32, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 2/28/2019 10:35 AM, Azutmai wrote: >> Brent . . . it might be helpful to equate the word ‘consciousness’ and >> ‘awareness.’ If we are conscious or aware of something . . . then it >> pertains to our viewpoint and lifestyle. > > I

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-03-01 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 28 Feb 2019, at 19:35, Azutmai wrote: > > Brent . . . it might be helpful to equate the word ‘consciousness’ and > ‘awareness.’ Yes. We can at some point add nuance, but as long as we don’t use the nuance, it is better to not make things complex for no reason. > If we are conscious

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-03-01 Thread Philip Thrift
On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 2:05:03 AM UTC-6, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 5:15:17 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 2/28/2019 3:00 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 4:34:54 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-03-01 Thread Philip Thrift
On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 5:15:17 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: > > > > On 2/28/2019 3:00 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 4:34:54 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 2/28/2019 2:14 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-28 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/28/2019 3:00 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 4:34:54 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: On 2/28/2019 2:14 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 3:48:04 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: On 2/28/2019 1:17 PM, Philip Thrift wrote:

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-28 Thread Philip Thrift
On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 4:34:54 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: > > > > On 2/28/2019 2:14 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 3:48:04 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 2/28/2019 1:17 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> The best current philosopher of (and

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-28 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/28/2019 2:14 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 3:48:04 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: On 2/28/2019 1:17 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: The best current philosopher of (and writer about) consciousness is *Galen Strawson*.

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-28 Thread Philip Thrift
On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 3:48:04 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: > > > > On 2/28/2019 1:17 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > The best current philosopher of (and writer about) consciousness is *Galen > Strawson*. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galen_Strawson >

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-28 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/28/2019 1:17 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: The best current philosopher of (and writer about) consciousness is *Galen Strawson*. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galen_Strawson https://sites.google.com/site/galenstrawson/

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-28 Thread Philip Thrift
The best current philosopher of (and writer about) consciousness is *Galen Strawson*. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galen_Strawson https://sites.google.com/site/galenstrawson/ https://liberalarts.utexas.edu/philosophy/faculty/profile.php?id=gs24429 There is a lot of his material (PDFs,

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-28 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/28/2019 10:35 AM, Azutmai wrote: Brent . . . it might be helpful to equate the word ‘consciousness’ and ‘awareness.’ If we are conscious or aware of something . . . then it pertains to our viewpoint and lifestyle. I take awareness to be consciousness without reflection or

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-28 Thread Azutmai
Brent . . . it might be helpful to equate the word ‘consciousness’ and ‘awareness.’ If we are conscious or aware of something . . . then it pertains to our viewpoint and lifestyle. Memory is a secondary feature to allow the individual to retain over time . . . otherwise we would have to

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-22 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 20 Feb 2019, at 00:00, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 2/17/2019 2:10 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: But the machine itself will not believe us, or understand this. >>> Why not? It can't prove what algorithm it is, but it can know that we >>> know...so why would it disbelieve us. >> Tha

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-19 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/17/2019 2:10 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: But the machine itself will not believe us, or understand this. Why not? It can't prove what algorithm it is, but it can know that we know...so why would it disbelieve us. Tha machine becomes inconsistent if it assumes its consistency (cf Rogers’s

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-19 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 15 Feb 2019, at 19:50, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 2/14/2019 3:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> On 14 Feb 2019, at 06:44, Brent Meeker wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2/12/2019 5:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: If we could knew which machine we are, we could define consciousness, or

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-19 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 15 Feb 2019, at 20:37, John Clark wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 1:15 PM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > > I will do a personal confession: I have never believe in matter, > > Matter doesn't care if you believe in it or not, it will just continue doing > what

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-19 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 15 Feb 2019, at 19:53, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 2/14/2019 3:26 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> Don’t hesitate to find some argument in favour of primitive materials, but >> in my opinion, this is highly speculative, and never used in physics. > > But the non-material primitive is

RE: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-19 Thread Bruno Marchal
Hi Philip, I cannot answer in your text for reason of bad formatting. It looks hard to be sent too. I comment here: when you say: << Matter is everything that we can see, smell, touch, feel and even can't see. >> I am OK with this definition. But when you add << Everything is matter,

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-18 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 10:14 AM Bruno Marchal wrote: >> Matter doesn't care if you believe in it or not, it will just continue >> doing what it does. > > > *> Assuming it exists.* > You've said that many many times before but I still don't get your point. Apparently I don't know what you mean

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
I send again my answer, that I wrote yesterday. All in one post. === Hi Philip, I cannot answer in your text for reason of bad formatting. It looks hard to be sent too. I comment here: when you say: << Matter is everything that we can see, smell, touch, feel and even can't see. >> I

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-15 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/14/2019 3:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 14 Feb 2019, at 06:44, Brent Meeker wrote: On 2/12/2019 5:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: If we could knew which machine we are, we could define consciousness, or at least our personal current consciousness, as it would be defined by the

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-15 Thread Philip Thrift
On Friday, February 15, 2019 at 1:37:54 PM UTC-6, John Clark wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 1:15 PM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > > I will do a personal confession: I have never believe in matter, > > > Matter doesn't care if you believe in it or not, it will just continue > doing what it

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-15 Thread Philip Thrift
On Friday, February 15, 2019 at 12:15:52 PM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 14 Feb 2019, at 09:43, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, February 13, 2019 at 10:17:57 PM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 11 Feb 2019, at 19:31, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Monday,

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-15 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 1:15 PM Bruno Marchal wrote: > I will do a personal confession: I have never believe in matter, Matter doesn't care if you believe in it or not, it will just continue doing what it does. > *because I have never seen any evidence for it. * That's OK, I don't think

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-15 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/14/2019 3:26 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Don’t hesitate to find some argument in favour of primitive materials, but in my opinion, this is highly speculative, and never used in physics. But the non-material primitive is never used either.  Insofar as I know, no scientist ever worries

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-15 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 14 Feb 2019, at 09:43, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, February 13, 2019 at 10:17:57 PM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 11 Feb 2019, at 19:31, Philip Thrift > >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Monday, February 11, 2019 at 9:24:18 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 11

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-15 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 14 Feb 2019, at 06:44, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 2/12/2019 5:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> If we could knew which machine we are, we could define consciousness, or at >> least our personal current consciousness, as it would be defined by the >> combinator realising us. But that

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-14 Thread Philip Thrift
On Wednesday, February 13, 2019 at 10:17:57 PM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 11 Feb 2019, at 19:31, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Monday, February 11, 2019 at 9:24:18 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 11 Feb 2019, at 00:34, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> Two recent

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-13 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/12/2019 5:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: If we could knew which machine we are, we could define consciousness, or at least our personal current consciousness, as it would be defined by the combinator realising us. But that is impossible, and it defines only mechanism and the choice we

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-13 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 11 Feb 2019, at 19:13, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 2/11/2019 7:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> On 11 Feb 2019, at 01:24, Brent Meeker wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2/10/2019 3:34 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: Two recent books: The First Minds: Caterpillars, Karyotes,

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-13 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 11 Feb 2019, at 19:31, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Monday, February 11, 2019 at 9:24:18 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 11 Feb 2019, at 00:34, Philip Thrift > >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Two recent books: >> >> The First Minds: Caterpillars, Karyotes, and Consciousness >>

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-13 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 11 Feb 2019, at 19:47, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Monday, February 11, 2019 at 9:56:12 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 11 Feb 2019, at 01:42, Lawrence Crowell > > wrote: >> >> I do not hold to the idea of panpsychism > > Nor do I. > > > > Panpsychism > >

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-12 Thread John Clark
On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 6:34 PM Philip Thrift wrote: > *10. Consciousness does not exist, as it is just a scientific mistake > (behaviorism} or a “user illusion” (Daniel Dennett). * > I generally like Daniel Dennett so I hope he really didn't say that because it's just dumb. A illusion is a

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-11 Thread Philip Thrift
On Monday, February 11, 2019 at 9:56:12 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 11 Feb 2019, at 01:42, Lawrence Crowell > wrote: > > I do not hold to the idea of panpsychism > > > Nor do I. > > > Panpsychism https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/panpsychism/

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-11 Thread Philip Thrift
On Monday, February 11, 2019 at 9:24:18 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 11 Feb 2019, at 00:34, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > Two recent books: > > The First Minds: Caterpillars, Karyotes, and Consciousness > Arthur S. Reber >

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-11 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/11/2019 7:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 11 Feb 2019, at 01:24, Brent Meeker wrote: On 2/10/2019 3:34 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: Two recent books: The First Minds: Caterpillars, Karyotes, and Consciousness Arthur S. Reber

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-11 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 11 Feb 2019, at 12:38, smitra wrote: > > Consciousness began when "I" became conscious. But here I take into account > that at the very beginning of "my" consciousness, "my" identity was almost > undefined, so "I" refers to pretty much all conscious processes. > > The notion of a

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-11 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 11 Feb 2019, at 09:42, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > Interest in the psychical (experience, consciousness) aspect in all > biological levels has sort of taken off recently, it seems. > > cf. > > Cosmopsychism, Micropsychism, and the Grounding Relation >

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-11 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 11 Feb 2019, at 08:05, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 2/10/2019 10:47 PM, Russell Standish wrote: >> On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 04:24:40PM -0800, Brent Meeker wrote: >>> >>> On 2/10/2019 3:34 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: 9. Consciousness began when human culture became advanced, around

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-11 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 11 Feb 2019, at 01:42, Lawrence Crowell > wrote: > > I do not hold to the idea of panpsychism Nor do I. > and the existence of God is something that can be dismissed with no loss of > understanding of reality. Of course, you mean the first Aristotelian God. The second is Primary

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-11 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 11 Feb 2019, at 01:24, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 2/10/2019 3:34 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> Two recent books: >> >> The First Minds: Caterpillars, Karyotes, and Consciousness >> Arthur S. Reber >> https://books.google.com/books/about/The_First_Minds.html?id=RBLEugEACAAJ >>

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-11 Thread Bruno Marchal
> On 11 Feb 2019, at 00:34, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > Two recent books: > > The First Minds: Caterpillars, Karyotes, and Consciousness > Arthur S. Reber > https://books.google.com/books/about/The_First_Minds.html?id=RBLEugEACAAJ > > Brain-Mind: From Neurons to Consciousness and

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-11 Thread smitra
Consciousness began when "I" became conscious. But here I take into account that at the very beginning of "my" consciousness, "my" identity was almost undefined, so "I" refers to pretty much all conscious processes. The notion of a personal identity is not a fundamental concept,

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-11 Thread Philip Thrift
As I've mentioned before, I think there is some relation between (proto)consciousness and (proto)language. Spoken-language ability (hominid) could have appeared perhaps 60,000 years ago. But written-language ability appears perhaps 6,000 years ago. Writing (beyond speaking) ability is

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-11 Thread Philip Thrift
Interest in the psychical (experience, consciousness) aspect in all biological levels has sort of taken off recently, it seems. cf. Cosmopsychism, Micropsychism, and the Grounding Relation Philip

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-10 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/10/2019 10:47 PM, Russell Standish wrote: On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 04:24:40PM -0800, Brent Meeker wrote: On 2/10/2019 3:34 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: 9. Consciousness began when human culture became advanced, around 3000 years ago (Julian Jaynes). The date more usually given is 40,000

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-10 Thread Russell Standish
On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 04:24:40PM -0800, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 2/10/2019 3:34 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > 9. Consciousness began when human culture became advanced, around 3000 > > years ago (Julian Jaynes). The date more usually given is 40,000 years bp. There was an explosion of

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-10 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/10/2019 4:42 PM, Lawrence Crowell wrote: I do not hold to the idea of panpsychism and the existence of God is something that can be dismissed with no loss of understanding of reality. It is harder to know about consciousness in living things. I hesitate in some ways to think that

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-10 Thread Lawrence Crowell
I do not hold to the idea of panpsychism and the existence of God is something that can be dismissed with no loss of understanding of reality. It is harder to know about consciousness in living things. I hesitate in some ways to think that prokaryotes are conscious in the way we are, just

Re: When Did Consciousness Begin?

2019-02-10 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/10/2019 3:34 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: Two recent books: The First Minds: Caterpillars, Karyotes, and Consciousness Arthur S. Reber https://books.google.com/books/about/The_First_Minds.html?id=RBLEugEACAAJ Brain-Mind: From Neurons to Consciousness and Creativity Paul Thagard