Re: Is reality unknowable?

2003-10-25 Thread Matt King
Hey all, Nice to see some activity on this list again. I think the filament's blown, but then again I'm a physicist :-) Matt. Norman Samish wrote: Perhaps you've heard of Thompson's Lamp. This is an ideal lamp, capable of infinite switching speed and using electricity that

Re: Is reality unknowable?

2003-10-25 Thread John M
The lamp is a translated version of the Achilles - Turtle race. My (non-physicist) tupence to the topic: Reality is a tricky concept. WE know the part of it that is interpreted by the mind for our limited appreciation. Tis is OUR reality and we know 'that' - only that. It constitutes the (common

Re: Is reality unknowable?

2003-10-25 Thread Hal Finney
It's also possible that the question, although seemingly made up of ordinary English language words used in a logical way, is actually incoherent. If I say, proposition P is both true and false, that is a sentence made up of English words, but it does not really make sense. I could then demand

Re: Is reality unknowable?

2003-10-25 Thread scerir
If, without in any way disturbing a system, we can predict with certainty the value of a physical quantity, there exists an element of reality corresponding to this physical quantity, wrote once EPR. (Of course the strong term here is *predict*, because prediction is based on something, a theory,

Re: Is reality unknowable?

2003-10-25 Thread Stephen Paul King
Dear Hal, No, it is not the case that such questions have no meaning. The Liar paradox, in its many forms and instantiations, convey a meaning. The problem, IMHO, is in the assumption that the negation is instantaneous. For example, when we read the sentence This sentence is false, we take it

Re: Ideal lamps

2003-10-25 Thread Eric Hawthorne
Perhaps you've heard of Thompson's Lamp. This is an IDEAL lamp, capable of INFINITE switching SPEED and using electricity that travels at INFINITE SPEED. Is it pedantic of me to point out that this is an IDEAL lamp, i.e. one which only exists as an idea, and one which, because of its

Re: Ideal lamps

2003-10-25 Thread Eugen Leitl
On Sat, Oct 25, 2003 at 03:15:57PM -0700, Brent Meeker wrote: I don't know why anyone thought the speed of light had anything to do Maybe you should read up on general relativity. with this problem. The lamp can be at a single point and so can its A geometrical point has zero length and

Re: Ideal lamps

2003-10-25 Thread Eric Hawthorne
Like I said, in mathematics, there MAY be an answer, depending what mathematical theory you choose. Even within mathematics, there may be questions that don't have an answer, and are ill-formed, and only seem well-formed because they seem to read ok in informal English. Without your extra

Re: Is reality unknowable?

2003-10-25 Thread Hal Finney
Scerir writes: If, without in any way disturbing a system, we can predict with certainty the value of a physical quantity, there exists an element of reality corresponding to this physical quantity, wrote once EPR. [...] Is there a similar definition, in math? If, from a set of axioms and

Re: Is reality unknowable?

2003-10-25 Thread Sanford Aranoff
Too many messages. I cannot read them all. Is there a user group where these things are more organized? Hope so, else I'll have to block these messages. Stephen Paul King wrote: Dear Hal, No, it is not the case that such questions have no meaning. The Liar paradox, in its many forms

Re: Is reality unknowable?

2003-10-25 Thread Hal Finney
Too many messages. I cannot read them all. Is there a user group where these things are more organized? Hope so, else I'll have to block these messages. This mailing list is archived at http://www.escribe.com/science/theory/, as well as