Re: Belief in Platonia

2011-02-14 Thread Stephen Paul King
From: Jason Resch Sent: Monday, February 14, 2011 1:13 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false? On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 10:46 AM, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: On 2/13/2011 5:21 AM, 1Z wrote:

Re: Plato's Heaven

2011-02-14 Thread Stephen Paul King
From: Jason Resch Sent: Monday, February 14, 2011 2:24 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false? On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 12:52 AM, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: On 2/13/2011 10:13 PM, Jason

Re: Multisolipsism

2011-02-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 13 Feb 2011, at 20:06, Stephen Paul King wrote: Hi Bruno, -Original Message- From: Bruno Marchal Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2011 3:48 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Multisolipsism On 13 Feb 2011, at 09:23, Stephen Paul King wrote: I am very interested in

Re: Belief in Platonia

2011-02-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
Do you believe that Goldbach conjecture is either true or false? If you agree with this, then you accept arithmetical realism, which is enough for the comp consequences. Do you believe that Church thesis makes sense? That is enough to say that you believe in the 'arithmetical platonia'.

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 14 Feb 2011, at 07:13, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 10:46 AM, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: On 2/13/2011 5:21 AM, 1Z wrote: On Feb 12, 3:18 am, Brent Meekermeeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: What do you think the chances are that any random object in Plato's

Re: Plato's Heaven

2011-02-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 14 Feb 2011, at 09:40, Stephen Paul King wrote: From: Jason Resch Sent: Monday, February 14, 2011 2:24 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false? On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 12:52 AM, Brent Meeker

Re: Belief in Platonia

2011-02-14 Thread Stephen Paul King
From: Bruno Marchal Sent: Monday, February 14, 2011 3:47 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Belief in Platonia Do you believe that Goldbach conjecture is either true or false? If you agree with this, then you accept arithmetical realism, which is enough for the comp

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 11 Feb 2011, at 19:10, 1Z wrote: On Feb 10, 1:24 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 09 Feb 2011, at 16:49, 1Z wrote: On Feb 8, 6:17 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 07 Feb 2011, at 23:58, 1Z wrote: On Feb 7, 6:29 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be

Re: Plato's Heaven

2011-02-14 Thread Stephen Paul King
From: Bruno Marchal Sent: Monday, February 14, 2011 4:49 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Plato's Heaven On 14 Feb 2011, at 09:40, Stephen Paul King wrote: snip {SPK] Allow me to add a comment to this brilliant argument. Following Jason’s description of

Re: Belief in Platonia

2011-02-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 14 Feb 2011, at 11:11, Stephen Paul King wrote: From: Bruno Marchal Sent: Monday, February 14, 2011 3:47 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Belief in Platonia Hi Bruno, Umm, I did not mean to upset you personally. I was not upset. May be too straight. Sorry if

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread 1Z
On Feb 14, 6:50 am, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote:  Perhaps humans are merely severely disabled when it comes to seeing and feeling the mathematical reality and our deficit in seeing this reality is much the same as an ant's poor vision prevents it from making out a mountain vista.  

Re: Plato's Heaven

2011-02-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 14 Feb 2011, at 11:17, Stephen Paul King wrote: From: Bruno Marchal Sent: Monday, February 14, 2011 4:49 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Plato's Heaven On 14 Feb 2011, at 09:40, Stephen Paul King wrote: snip {SPK] Allow me to add a comment to this brilliant

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread 1Z
On Feb 14, 7:24 am, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 12:52 AM, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.comwrote:  On 2/13/2011 10:13 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 10:46 AM, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.comwrote: On 2/13/2011 5:21 AM, 1Z

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread 1Z
On Feb 14, 8:47 am, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Do you believe that Goldbach conjecture is either true or false? If you agree with this, then you accept arithmetical realism, which is enough for the comp consequences., Nope. Bivalence can be accepted as a formal rule and therefore

Re: Solution to the OM problem

2011-02-14 Thread smitra
I wrote the paper to motivate the problem and show how QM is relevant even though it is not relevant from the usual physics perspective. I.e. decoherence prevents quantum phenomena from being relevant from the mechanistic point of view and you are then led to approach the problem from the

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 14 Feb 2011, at 13:35, 1Z wrote: On Feb 14, 8:47 am, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Do you believe that Goldbach conjecture is either true or false? If you agree with this, then you accept arithmetical realism, which is enough for the comp consequences., Nope. Bivalence can be

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 14 Feb 2011, at 12:13, 1Z wrote: Thing that aren't real can't have real properties, but hypothetical things have hypothetical properties You talk like if you knew what is real. Do you agree that the existence of primary matter can only be an hypothesis? A useful simplifying

Re: Solution to the OM problem

2011-02-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 14 Feb 2011, at 14:52, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote: I wrote the paper to motivate the problem and show how QM is relevant even though it is not relevant from the usual physics perspective. I.e. decoherence prevents quantum phenomena from being relevant from the mechanistic point of view and

Observers Class Hypothesis

2011-02-14 Thread Stephen Paul King
Hi Travis, Again I thank you for joining the discussion group. We have been missing someone with quantum field theory knowledge to weigh in on the discussions. I have been carefully reading and researching the ideas in your paper as they seem to be strongly related to many of the ideas

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/13/2011 11:24 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 12:52 AM, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com mailto:meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: On 2/13/2011 10:13 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 10:46 AM, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/14/2011 1:00 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 14 Feb 2011, at 07:13, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 10:46 AM, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.com mailto:meeke...@dslextreme.com wrote: On 2/13/2011 5:21 AM, 1Z wrote: On Feb 12, 3:18 am, Brent

Re: Belief in Platonia

2011-02-14 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/14/2011 2:11 AM, Stephen Paul King wrote: Hi Bruno, Umm, I did not mean to upset you personally. I find your ideas to be very interesting and even elegant, but there is an 800 Pound Gorilla in the Room that needs to be addressed and it is the nature of the assumptions that we bring

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread David Nyman
On 14 February 2011 12:35, 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: Oh come on. How can you say that after I just told you 7 doesn't exist. Wouldn't this then imply that computation also doesn't exist, in an analogous sense? And that consequently any computational characterisation of the mental is in

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread 1Z
On Feb 14, 10:16 am, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 11 Feb 2011, at 19:10, 1Z wrote: On Feb 10, 1:24 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 09 Feb 2011, at 16:49, 1Z wrote: On Feb 8, 6:17 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 07 Feb 2011, at 23:58, 1Z

Re: Plato's Heaven

2011-02-14 Thread 1Z
On Feb 14, 10:17 am, Stephen Paul King stephe...@charter.net wrote:       Allow me to add a comment to this brilliant argument. Following Jason’s description of Platonia, Plato’s heaven, it would seem to include all possible descriptions of itself and thus is in a way like a set that

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread 1Z
On Feb 14, 2:52 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 14 Feb 2011, at 13:35, 1Z wrote: On Feb 14, 8:47 am, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Do you believe that Goldbach conjecture is either true or false? If you agree with this, then you accept arithmetical realism, which

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread 1Z
On Feb 14, 2:56 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 14 Feb 2011, at 12:13, 1Z wrote: Thing that aren't real can't have  real properties, but hypothetical things have hypothetical properties You talk like if you knew what is real. I only have to know what real means. Do you

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2011/2/14 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com On Feb 14, 2:52 pm, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 14 Feb 2011, at 13:35, 1Z wrote: On Feb 14, 8:47 am, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Do you believe that Goldbach conjecture is either true or false? If you agree with this,

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread 1Z
On Feb 14, 6:21 pm, David Nyman da...@davidnyman.com wrote: On 14 February 2011 12:35, 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: Oh come on. How can you say that after I just told you 7 doesn't exist. Wouldn't this then imply that computation also doesn't exist, in an analogous sense? I can

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2011/2/14 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com On Feb 14, 6:21 pm, David Nyman da...@davidnyman.com wrote: On 14 February 2011 12:35, 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: Oh come on. How can you say that after I just told you 7 doesn't exist. Wouldn't this then imply that computation also doesn't

Re: Are our brains in that VAT? Yep.

2011-02-14 Thread 1Z
On Feb 13, 11:29 pm, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Since the Honored Listers refrain from signing their remarks, it is hard to decipher to whom I write: Brent, Stathis, maybe others who just barged in? So I go topical. First: randomness in the mind. I am functionally against the term

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread David Nyman
On 14 February 2011 19:32, 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: If you have a physical token running a computation, you have a computation. What is eliminated? But such talk is all a posteriori and hence merely circular. A priori, if you claim that reality can be reduced to (i.e. actually

Re: Are our brains in that VAT? Yep.

2011-02-14 Thread John Mikes
Brent: I looked up random:definition in Google - lots of anything goes - hap hazardous. I was reluctant, because in my mother tongue there is no equivalent of 'random', we say the German exbeliebig variation - whatever you LIKE. (tetszoeleges, akarmilyen). Most advanced countries use 'random'

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread John Mikes
David, I was laughing all the way from the computer that '7 does not exist'. And yes, it does not. Do qualia exist without the substrate they serve for as qualia? It goes into our deeper thought to identify 'existing' - I am willing to go as far as if our mind handles it, 'it' DOES exist so the

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread David Nyman
On 14 February 2011 20:46, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: I asked several times: what are numbers? without getting a reasonable reply. Sometimes I really like 1Z's twists. That may be, but I would also like to see if we can get things untwisted. I'm not peddling any theory of my own

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread Jason Resch
On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 11:23 AM, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.comwrote: On 2/13/2011 11:24 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 12:52 AM, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.comwrote: On 2/13/2011 10:13 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 10:46 AM, Brent Meeker

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread 1Z
On Feb 14, 8:07 pm, David Nyman da...@davidnyman.com wrote: On 14 February 2011 19:32, 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: If you have a physical token running a computation, you have a computation. What is eliminated? But such talk is all a posteriori and hence merely circular. That the

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread 1Z
On Feb 14, 11:08 pm, David Nyman da...@davidnyman.com wrote: On 14 February 2011 20:46, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: I asked several times: what are numbers? without getting a reasonable reply. Sometimes I really like 1Z's twists. That may be, but I would also like to see if we

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/14/2011 11:36 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Programs are not written with physical instantiation in mind... even if eventually you run it. Really? Did people write programs before computers were invented? What is important is the computation which doesn't care about the physical

Re: Maudlin How many times does COMP have to be false before its false?

2011-02-14 Thread 1Z
On Feb 15, 12:12 am, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 11:23 AM, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.comwrote:  On 2/13/2011 11:24 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 12:52 AM, Brent Meeker meeke...@dslextreme.comwrote:  On 2/13/2011 10:13 PM,

Re: A comment on Mauldin's paper “Computation and Consciousness”

2011-02-14 Thread 1Z
On Jan 31, 2:31 am, Stephen Paul King stephe...@charter.net wrote: Hi 1Z,     I would agree with you but we are not considering an FAPP rule of thumb for everyday situations, we are considering ontological questions. If our conjectures and assumptions are contraindicated by experimental

Re: A comment on Mauldin's paper “Computation and Consciousness”

2011-02-14 Thread 1Z
On Feb 1, 12:41 am, David Shipman zzship...@gmail.com wrote: On Jan 30, 4:13 pm, 1Z peterdjo...@yahoo.com wrote: On Jan 25, 9:04 am, Stephen Paul King stephe...@charter.net wrote: Dear Bruno and Friends,  While we are considering the idea of “causal efficacy” here and not hidden

Re: A comment on Mauldin's paper “Computation and Consciousness”

2011-02-14 Thread Brent Meeker
On 2/14/2011 5:03 PM, 1Z wrote: This isn't true, is it? So we have two particles (A and B) that are entangled. Entanglement is never destroyed, it is only obscured by subsequent interactions with the environment. Particle A goes zooming off into outer space. 10 years later,