Re: Qualia and mathematics

2012-01-31 Thread Pierz
On Jan 29, 3:44 pm, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/28/2012 7:05 PM, Pierz wrote: On Jan 29, 10:57 am, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net  wrote: On 1/28/2012 3:15 PM, Pierz wrote: These approaches always end up conflating the two, their proponents getting annoyed with

Re: Qualia and mathematics

2012-01-31 Thread acw
On 1/31/2012 14:28, Pierz wrote: I'll tell you a campfire story of my own. One day my grandmother was going to drive my mother home across town. We were at my gran's place at the time and a close friend of mine was present. As they were about to leave, my friend went suddenly pale. She said

Re: Qualia and mathematics

2012-01-31 Thread Stephen P. King
On 1/31/2012 7:28 AM, Pierz wrote: On Jan 29, 3:44 pm, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 1/28/2012 7:05 PM, Pierz wrote: On Jan 29, 10:57 am, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.netwrote: On 1/28/2012 3:15 PM, Pierz wrote: These approaches always end up conflating the two, their proponents

Superfluous Qualia Challenge For Comp

2012-01-31 Thread Craig Weinberg
When we close our eyes, we still see visual noise, even in total darkness. If qualia were based on computation, we should expect that no sensory input should equate to total blackness, since there is no information to report. Since we can dream or imagine total darkness without this kind of noise,

Re: Superfluous Qualia Challenge For Comp

2012-01-31 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2012/1/31 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com When we close our eyes, we still see visual noise, even in total darkness. If qualia were based on computation, we should expect that no sensory input should equate to total blackness, since there is no information to report. ?? WTF ?

Re: Superfluous Qualia Challenge For Comp

2012-01-31 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Jan 31, 11:46 am, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2012/1/31 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com When we close our eyes, we still see visual noise, even in total darkness. If qualia were based on computation, we should expect that no sensory input should equate to total

Re: Superfluous Qualia Challenge For Comp

2012-01-31 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2012/1/31 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com On Jan 31, 11:46 am, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2012/1/31 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com When we close our eyes, we still see visual noise, even in total darkness. If qualia were based on computation, we should expect

Re: Qualia and mathematics

2012-01-31 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Jan 31, 7:28 am, Pierz pier...@gmail.com wrote: It's amazing the difference in the standard of evidence expected of a study that purports to refute a phenomenon outside the conventional paradigm compared to that expected of a study that claims to provide evidence for it. Yes, there's the

Re: Superfluous Qualia Challenge For Comp

2012-01-31 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Jan 31, 12:03 pm, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: Nothing is easily represented... why something ? Have you more stupid though to discuss in your pocket ? Empty ridicule. Must have hit a nerve. Why not explain why I'm wrong instead? -- You received this message because you are

Re: Superfluous Qualia Challenge For Comp

2012-01-31 Thread acw
On 1/31/2012 18:44, Craig Weinberg wrote: When we close our eyes, we still see visual noise, even in total darkness. If qualia were based on computation, we should expect that no sensory input should equate to total blackness, since there is no information to report. Since we can dream or

Re: Superfluous Qualia Challenge For Comp

2012-01-31 Thread Joseph Knight
On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 11:03 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: 2012/1/31 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com On Jan 31, 11:46 am, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2012/1/31 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com When we close our eyes, we still see visual noise,

Re: Information: a basic physical quantity or rather emergence/supervenience phenomenon

2012-01-31 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: I just explained 3 days after learning that the subject even existed here we sit at your feet while you explain all about it to us. that Shannon information has nothing to do with anything except data compression. Except

Re: Superfluous Qualia Challenge For Comp

2012-01-31 Thread Stephen P. King
On 1/31/2012 12:48 PM, Joseph Knight wrote: On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 11:03 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com mailto:allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2012/1/31 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com mailto:whatsons...@gmail.com On Jan 31, 11:46 am, Quentin Anciaux

Re: Superfluous Qualia Challenge For Comp

2012-01-31 Thread Joseph Knight
On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 12:11 PM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.netwrote: On 1/31/2012 12:48 PM, Joseph Knight wrote: On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 11:03 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: 2012/1/31 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com On Jan 31, 11:46 am, Quentin Anciaux

Re: Intelligence and consciousness

2012-01-31 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: The Limbic system predates the Neocortex evolutionarily. As I've said on this list many times. There is no reason to think that emotion emerged after intelligence. And as I've said emotion is about 500 million years old

Re: Qualia and mathematics

2012-01-31 Thread meekerdb
On 1/31/2012 10:25 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: That's the reason mind exist, it accelerate the processing much more quickly. In fact, just by software change, the slower machine can always beat the faster machines, on almost inputs, except a finite number of them. I can accept that intuitively,

Re: Superfluous Qualia Challenge For Comp

2012-01-31 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Jan 31, 12:45 pm, acw a...@lavabit.com wrote: A digital or analog camera would get similar amounts of noise as the eye, actually probably less than the eye. Why do you say that? Have you ever taken a photo with the lens cap on? I just looked at my digital camera in my phone and blocked the

Re: Superfluous Qualia Challenge For Comp

2012-01-31 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2012/1/31 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com On Jan 31, 12:45 pm, acw a...@lavabit.com wrote: A digital or analog camera would get similar amounts of noise as the eye, actually probably less than the eye. Why do you say that? Have you ever taken a photo with the lens cap on? I just

Re: Superfluous Qualia Challenge For Comp

2012-01-31 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Jan 31, 1:18 pm, Joseph Knight joseph.9...@gmail.com wrote: I agree with your point about thinking outside the box, but barring some astronomically improbable stroke of luck, it would be necessary for Craig to *understand what he is criticizing *before he could actually make useful

Re: Superfluous Qualia Challenge For Comp

2012-01-31 Thread meekerdb
On 1/31/2012 11:11 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Also when you close your eyes, your sensor still receive stimuli from the eyes. Only in total blackness would you see black, but you'll still receive information from other senses and parts of your brain. You never have no inputs. Even in sense

Re: Superfluous Qualia Challenge For Comp

2012-01-31 Thread Joseph Knight
On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 1:12 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: On Jan 31, 1:18 pm, Joseph Knight joseph.9...@gmail.com wrote: I agree with your point about thinking outside the box, but barring some astronomically improbable stroke of luck, it would be necessary for Craig to

Re: Superfluous Qualia Challenge For Comp

2012-01-31 Thread acw
On 1/31/2012 19:01, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Jan 31, 12:45 pm, acwa...@lavabit.com wrote: A digital or analog camera would get similar amounts of noise as the eye, actually probably less than the eye. Why do you say that? Have you ever taken a photo with the lens cap on? First, the eyes

Re: Superfluous Qualia Challenge For Comp

2012-01-31 Thread Terren Suydam
Craig, The movie The Matrix is essentially about comp. What is it about that movie's premise that seems impossible to you? Terren On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 2:12 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: On Jan 31, 1:18 pm, Joseph Knight joseph.9...@gmail.com wrote: I agree with your

Re: Superfluous Qualia Challenge For Comp

2012-01-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 31 Jan 2012, at 19:11, Stephen P. King wrote: On 1/31/2012 12:48 PM, Joseph Knight wrote: On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 11:03 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2012/1/31 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com On Jan 31, 11:46 am, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote:

Re: Superfluous Qualia Challenge For Comp

2012-01-31 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Jan 31, 2:11 pm, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: A conscious program should involves deep computation and self reflection, visual qualia inputs are not only from visual sensors but also from internal parts like in human. Also when you close your eyes, your sensor still receive

Re: Superfluous Qualia Challenge For Comp

2012-01-31 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2012/1/31 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com On Jan 31, 2:11 pm, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: A conscious program should involves deep computation and self reflection, visual qualia inputs are not only from visual sensors but also from internal parts like in human. Also

Re: Intelligence and consciousness

2012-01-31 Thread John Mikes
Craig and Brent: would you kindly disclose an opinion that can be deemed SUPPORTED All our 'support' (evidence, verification whatever) comes from mostly uninformed information fragments we receive by observation(?) of the already accessible details and try to

Re: Superfluous Qualia Challenge For Comp

2012-01-31 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Jan 31, 2:33 pm, Joseph Knight joseph.9...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 1:12 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: On Jan 31, 1:18 pm, Joseph Knight joseph.9...@gmail.com wrote: I agree with your point about thinking outside the box, but barring some

Re: Superfluous Qualia Challenge For Comp

2012-01-31 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Jan 31, 2:52 pm, Terren Suydam terren.suy...@gmail.com wrote: Craig, The movie The Matrix is essentially about comp. What is it about that movie's premise that seems impossible to you? It's possible to simulate a world for a person but it is not possible to simulate the sense of being a

Re: Superfluous Qualia Challenge For Comp

2012-01-31 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2012/1/31 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com On Jan 31, 2:52 pm, Terren Suydam terren.suy...@gmail.com wrote: Craig, The movie The Matrix is essentially about comp. What is it about that movie's premise that seems impossible to you? It's possible to simulate a world for a person but

Re: Superfluous Qualia Challenge For Comp

2012-01-31 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2012/1/31 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net On 1/31/2012 11:11 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Also when you close your eyes, your sensor still receive stimuli from the eyes. Only in total blackness would you see black, but you'll still receive information from other senses and parts of your brain.

Re: Superfluous Qualia Challenge For Comp

2012-01-31 Thread Terren Suydam
What if a baby is fed a virtual reality from the day it was born? Assume that (as in the movie) the sensory inputs are rich enough that if we were to experience it, we would be hard pressed to detect that it was a virtual reality. If the baby grows up in a virtual world, complete with rich social

Re: Superfluous Qualia Challenge For Comp

2012-01-31 Thread Joseph Knight
On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 2:41 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: On Jan 31, 2:33 pm, Joseph Knight joseph.9...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 1:12 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: On Jan 31, 1:18 pm, Joseph Knight joseph.9...@gmail.com wrote: I

Help with mailing list configuration

2012-01-31 Thread Johnathan Corgan
I have a filter set in my mail software such that any Everything List thread that has more than 20% of the comments by Craig Weinberg gets put into a special folder. I find this helps me to prioritize my reading. It's really working well! But something must be wrong, as I haven't seen any other

Re: Superfluous Qualia Challenge For Comp

2012-01-31 Thread Stephen P. King
On 1/31/2012 3:03 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 31 Jan 2012, at 19:11, Stephen P. King wrote: snip Hi, In Craig's defense I would like to point out that however trolling or postmodernist you might see his ideas, he is trying hard to think outside of the box that you guys are gyrating

Re: for Craig

2012-01-31 Thread Terren Suydam
Craig - see below... On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 11:35 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: They are part of the same thing, although perpendicular (organization is material forms across volumetric space, experience is entangled perceptions through sequential time...exact opposites,

Re: Superfluous Qualia Challenge For Comp

2012-01-31 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Jan 31, 2:55 pm, acw a...@lavabit.com wrote: On 1/31/2012 19:01, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Jan 31, 12:45 pm, acwa...@lavabit.com wrote: A digital or analog camera would get similar amounts of noise as the eye, actually probably less than the eye. Why do you say that? Have you ever

Big Bang belief

2012-01-31 Thread John Mikes
David Nyman wrote: *On 25 January 2012 19:46, meekerdb **meeke...@verizon.net*meeke...@verizon.net * wrote:* * Note that the theories I mentioned do not assume a spacetime vacuum. One may say they assume a potentiality for a spacetime vacuum, but to deny even potential would be to deny

Re: Superfluous Qualia Challenge For Comp

2012-01-31 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Jan 31, 4:00 pm, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2012/1/31 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com On Jan 31, 2:52 pm, Terren Suydam terren.suy...@gmail.com wrote: Craig, The movie The Matrix is essentially about comp. What is it about that movie's premise that seems

Re: Superfluous Qualia Challenge For Comp

2012-01-31 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Jan 31, 4:40 pm, Terren Suydam terren.suy...@gmail.com wrote: What if a baby is fed a virtual reality from the day it was born? Assume that (as in the movie) the sensory inputs are rich enough that if we were to experience it, we would be hard pressed to detect that it was a virtual

Re: Superfluous Qualia Challenge For Comp

2012-01-31 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Jan 31, 4:40 pm, Joseph Knight joseph.9...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 2:41 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: On Jan 31, 2:33 pm, Joseph Knight joseph.9...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 1:12 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote:

Re: Big Bang belief

2012-01-31 Thread David Nyman
On 31 January 2012 22:55, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: I agree with what you say, John. When we reach such a pitch of puzzlement about our very categories of thought it's a sure sign that we're bumping into some human limitation or other. Temporary or permanent, who knows? But still,

Re: Big Bang belief

2012-01-31 Thread Jason Resch
Regarding the philosopher's nothing: This present moment exists, and it has no cause since our universe is a four dimensional structure (time is a subjective phenomenon). This timeless existence of this moment establishes that nothingness cannot exist. In short: It is an impossible state. The

Re: Big Bang belief

2012-01-31 Thread meekerdb
On 1/31/2012 8:43 PM, Jason Resch wrote: Regarding the philosopher's nothing: This present moment exists, and it has no cause since our universe is a four dimensional structure (time is a subjective phenomenon). This timeless existence of this moment establishes that nothingness cannot

Mind-reading-device-could-become-reality

2012-01-31 Thread Stephen P. King
Hi, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/9051909/Mind-reading-device-could-become-reality.html Are not computers wonderful tools? :-) Any comments? Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post

Re: Mind-reading-device-could-become-reality

2012-01-31 Thread Joseph Knight
One step closer to scanning and uploading :) On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 11:24 PM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.netwrote: Hi, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/**science/science-news/9051909/**