Re: What is thinking ?

2012-08-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 30 Aug 2012, at 18:56, meekerdb wrote: On 8/30/2012 9:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 30 Aug 2012, at 17:16, Brian Tenneson wrote: Thinking implies a progression of time. So perhaps it is equally important to define time. In the computationlist theory, the digital discrete sequence

Re: No Chinese Room Necessary

2012-08-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 30 Aug 2012, at 19:19, meekerdb wrote: On 8/30/2012 10:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 29 Aug 2012, at 22:30, meekerdb wrote: From experience I know people tend not to adopt it, but let me recommend a distinction. Moral is what I expect of myself. Ethics is what I do and what I

Re: No Chinese Room Necessary

2012-08-31 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2012/8/31 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com On Thursday, August 30, 2012 6:55:35 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 8/30/2012 6:35 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, August 30, 2012 6:16:14 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: Hi Craig, Umm, ever hear of the concept of

Re: Final Evidence: Cannabis causes neuropsychological decline

2012-08-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 30 Aug 2012, at 20:01, meekerdb wrote: On 8/29/2012 11:19 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I might write a longer comment, but I will be a bit busy those days. Here are some references on the fact that cannabis can cure cancer: Cannabis selectively target cancerous cell, and makes them auto-

Re: Final Evidence: Cannabis causes neuropsychological decline

2012-08-31 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2012/8/31 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 30 Aug 2012, at 20:01, meekerdb wrote: On 8/29/2012 11:19 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I might write a longer comment, but I will be a bit busy those days. Here are some references on the fact that cannabis can cure cancer: Cannabis

Re: CTMU

2012-08-31 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Alberto G. Corona He seems to have left out the personal universe of subjectivity. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/31/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Alberto G.

Hating the rich

2012-08-31 Thread Roger Clough
Hating the rich is the new racism. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/31/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so everything could function. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this

Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

2012-08-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 30 Aug 2012, at 20:09, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, August 30, 2012 1:11:55 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 29 Aug 2012, at 20:09, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 1:22:38 PM UTC-4, William R. Buckley wrote: Cells are indeed controlled by software (as

Is evolution moral ?

2012-08-31 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal If IMHO the moral is that which enhances life, then not working tends to be immoral. It is interesting to try to combine this definition with evolution. You might enhance your own life (and chance of generating more humans) by defeating a competitor, but the overall outcome

Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

2012-08-31 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal From the standpoint of Leibniz's metaphysics, God is necessary because He runs the whole show. In that case, the concept of gap is irrelevent. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/31/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could

Re: Re: No Chinese Room Necessary

2012-08-31 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal I would answer by saying that even unconscious entities, such as an immune system, can enhance life, and so IMHO are good (moral) while cancer, which tends to deminish life, is bad or evil. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/31/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God,

Re: Good is that which enhances life

2012-08-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 30 Aug 2012, at 21:08, Richard Ruquist wrote: Roger, Have you ever smoked pot. If not you are not qualified to comment Richard Richard, Have you ever jumped from a plane without a parachute? If not you are not qualified to comment. But I agree with you, cannabis is a life appetizer, it

Re: No Chinese Room Necessary

2012-08-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 30 Aug 2012, at 21:23, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, August 30, 2012 3:03:32 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: Please excuse the word, but comp can only create zombies, which seem to be alive but are not actually so. The problem is that you cannot know that. Then you can't know

Re: Re: Re: Re: What is thinking ?

2012-08-31 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg Language, as you suggest, is an important part, even the foundation, of thinking. And indeed, Peirce said that we think in symbols. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/31/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function.

Re: Is evolution moral ?

2012-08-31 Thread Alberto G. Corona
Take for example the most primitive form of competition: the fight in a tribe for a leader. You defeat your opponent using politics or a form of ritualized violence (sorry for the redundancy). Then if you are the best fit for the task and the competition is adequate, the overall fitness of the

Re: Re: Good is that which enhances life

2012-08-31 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Richard and Bruno Marchal, IMHO if pot enhances life, it is good --at least for that activity, such as in treating cancer. I suppose relaxation would also be good, not sure. But the danger is that pot if smoked regularly may become addictive, which is not good since it diminishes life.

Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

2012-08-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
William, On 30 Aug 2012, at 22:27, William R. Buckley wrote: Bruno: I rather take issue with the notion that the living cell is not controlled by the genome. As biosemioticians (like Marcello Barbieri) teach us, there are a number of codes used in biological context, and each has a

Re: No Chinese Room Necessary

2012-08-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 30 Aug 2012, at 23:19, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, August 30, 2012 4:47:19 PM UTC-4, Alberto G.Corona wrote: There is a human nature, and therefore a social nature with invariants. in computational terms, the human mind is a collection or hardwired programs. codified by a

Re: Re: Is evolution moral ?

2012-08-31 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Alberto G. Corona Adam Smith showed that enlightened self-interest, contrary to what a liberal might think, benefits all. The buyer gains goods, the seller gains capital. Society is eventually enriched as well. Man would never have survived with such all-enriching market trading. Ayn Rand

Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

2012-08-31 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal Sorry for the continual objections, but I'm just trying to point out to you a hole in your thinking large enough to drive a bus through. However, you keep ignoring my objections, only intended to be constructive, which is rude. So What parts or part of a DNA molecule

Re: Re: Technological (Machine) Thinking and Lived Being (Erlebnis)

2012-08-31 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg You're on the right track, but everybody from Plato on says that the Platonic world is timeless, eternal. And nonextended or spaceless (nonlocal). Leibniz's world of monads satisfies these requirements. But there is more, there is the Supreme Monad, which experiences all.

Re: Re: Is evolution moral ?

2012-08-31 Thread Alberto G. Corona
Totally in agreement. The problem is that the market has not good cognitive/moral support in human psichology, because it is very recent. For one side, men acting in markets feels themselves as selfish and the winner is envied. This has´nt to be so, because engaging in the market is very good for

Re: Final Evidence: Cannabis causes neuropsychological decline

2012-08-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 31 Aug 2012, at 10:44, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2012/8/31 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 30 Aug 2012, at 20:01, meekerdb wrote: On 8/29/2012 11:19 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I might write a longer comment, but I will be a bit busy those days. Here are some references on the fact

Re: Re: No Chinese Room Necessary

2012-08-31 Thread Roger Clough
Progressivism is another word for Utopianism. Their utopias sound good but as of yet have never worked, or worked for long. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/31/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the

Re: Hating the rich

2012-08-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 31 Aug 2012, at 10:45, Roger Clough wrote: Hating the rich is the new racism. No, as rich exists in all classes, and in all societies. Hating the rich is either the very old jealousy, or sometimes the natural hate of bandits when the rich have become rich through lies and stealing,

Re: Final Evidence: Cannabis causes neuropsychological decline

2012-08-31 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2012/8/31 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 31 Aug 2012, at 10:44, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2012/8/31 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 30 Aug 2012, at 20:01, meekerdb wrote: On 8/29/2012 11:19 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I might write a longer comment, but I will be a bit busy those

Re: Is evolution moral ?

2012-08-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 31 Aug 2012, at 10:54, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal If IMHO the moral is that which enhances life, then not working tends to be immoral. OK. Again, this makes cannabis moral, as some (sick if you want) people come back through work thanks to it. usually people with parkinson,

Re: Re: Technological (Machine) Thinking and Lived Being (Erlebnis)

2012-08-31 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg According to Einstein, space doesn't exist per se. Remarkably, Leibniz also came this conclusion back in the 17th century. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/31/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. -

Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

2012-08-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 31 Aug 2012, at 10:58, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal From the standpoint of Leibniz's metaphysics, God is necessary because He runs the whole show. In that case, the concept of gap is irrelevent. No problem with this. With comp, arithmetical truth runs the whole show, in some

Re: No Chinese Room Necessary

2012-08-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 31 Aug 2012, at 11:05, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal I would answer by saying that even unconscious entities, such as an immune system, can enhance life, and so IMHO are good (moral) while cancer, which tends to deminish life, is bad or evil. Sure. Bruno Roger Clough,

Re: Good is that which enhances life

2012-08-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 31 Aug 2012, at 11:26, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Richard and Bruno Marchal, IMHO if pot enhances life, it is good --at least for that activity, such as in treating cancer. I suppose relaxation would also be good, not sure. But the danger is that pot if smoked regularly may become

A little greed is good

2012-08-31 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Alberto G. Corona Competition incites a desire to win (incentive) ,which is very healthy (ie good), at least to a degree. This is contrary to liberal thought, which holds that if we are all equal, there should be no winners or losers. For a little greed is what causes people to buy

Re: Re: Hating the rich

2012-08-31 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal No, the rich only exist in the upper classes. And only the upper classes in all societies. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/31/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content -

Re: Re: Is evolution moral ?

2012-08-31 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal Yes, cannabis is moral when used to treat illneses. But not moral (not health-enhancing) in all situations. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/31/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the

Re: A little greed is good

2012-08-31 Thread Alberto G. Corona
Roger: Again totally agree. But what people do with the results of this little greed? They do things for others: Their familly for example. In the most extreme selfish cases, most engage in a frenetic behaviours aimed at having descendence, even at the risk of dying. In the deep selfishness

Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

2012-08-31 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, August 31, 2012 4:47:30 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 30 Aug 2012, at 20:09, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, August 30, 2012 1:11:55 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 29 Aug 2012, at 20:09, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 1:22:38 PM UTC-4,

Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

2012-08-31 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, August 31, 2012 6:08:05 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 31 Aug 2012, at 11:07, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal The burden of proof, IMHO lies on those who claim that computers are alive and conscious. What evidence is there for that ? The causal nature of all

Living in a subjective universe vs having a dual aspect mind

2012-08-31 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King Leibniz's Idealism (LI) differs from dual-aspect monism (DAM) in that while both have corresponding domains of brain and mind, as I understand it, DAM is an overlay of brain and mind. But LI feautures mind in Ideal space in the form of monads, each of which is like a

Re: No Chinese Room Necessary

2012-08-31 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, August 31, 2012 12:30:30 AM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: Hi Craig, They never state it explicitly, but it is the logical implication of their arguments. We should pay teachers more and useless businessmen less implies all are paid the same regardless of skill, no? We

Re: No Chinese Room Necessary

2012-08-31 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, August 31, 2012 4:14:37 AM UTC-4, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2012/8/31 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript: On Thursday, August 30, 2012 6:55:35 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 8/30/2012 6:35 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, August 30, 2012 6:16:14 PM

While computers are causal, life is not causal.

2012-08-31 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg While computers are causal, perception is not causal. Nothing that living things do is causal. They have an uncaused first or governing cause called the self. Thus life does not have to be causal and isn't. Monads operate in such a fashion. They are not causal except if

Re: No Chinese Room Necessary

2012-08-31 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2012/8/31 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com On Friday, August 31, 2012 4:14:37 AM UTC-4, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2012/8/31 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com On Thursday, August 30, 2012 6:55:35 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 8/30/2012 6:35 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On

Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

2012-08-31 Thread Alberto G. Corona
At this moment of knowledge there is something that I thing everybody will agree: 1) the basic laws may be the same for computers and for minds, but in practical terms, the quantitative differences in well designed organization of the brain makes the mind qualitatively different from computers.

Re: Living in a subjective universe vs having a dual aspect mind

2012-08-31 Thread Stephen P. King
On 8/31/2012 8:19 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Leibniz's Idealism (LI) differs from dual-aspect monism (DAM) in that while both have corresponding domains of brain and mind, as I understand it, DAM is an overlay of brain and mind. Hi Roger, LI is commesurate with DAM, IMHO.

Re: No Chinese Room Necessary

2012-08-31 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, August 31, 2012 5:17:57 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 30 Aug 2012, at 21:23, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, August 30, 2012 3:03:32 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: Please excuse the word, but comp can only create zombies, which seem to be alive but are not actually

Re: No Chinese Room Necessary

2012-08-31 Thread Stephen P. King
On 8/31/2012 8:23 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, August 31, 2012 12:30:30 AM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: Hi Craig, They never state it explicitly, but it is the logical implication of their arguments. We should pay teachers more and useless businessmen less

Non-causal evolution and the innate intelligence of life.

2012-08-31 Thread Roger Clough
Hi William R. Buckley IMHO, stemming from the absence of self from materialistic philosophy, the materialistic view of life is essentially causal, similar to the billiard ball example. This is nonsense. Life is not causal and is not deterministic any more than Congress is causal. Life is more

Re: Re: No Chinese Room Necessary

2012-08-31 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, August 31, 2012 5:57:54 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Progressivism is another word for Utopianism. Their utopias sound good but as of yet have never worked, or worked for long. Has Regressivism and Dystopianism fared much better? Craig -- You received this message because

Re: No Chinese Room Necessary

2012-08-31 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, August 31, 2012 8:30:50 AM UTC-4, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2012/8/31 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript: On Friday, August 31, 2012 4:14:37 AM UTC-4, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2012/8/31 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com On Thursday, August 30, 2012 6:55:35 PM

life as federations of cells with representational government and a leader on top

2012-08-31 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Alberto G. Corona IMHO I think that life operates mostly according to the Schopenhauerian will to survive. There of course must be some more organized laws or contitution. Life consists of federations of cells, organized as representational governments, each cell with its own appointed

Re: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

2012-08-31 Thread Roger Clough
Hi John Clark JOHN: That implies that you CAN think of a way that a bunch of cells in your skull squirting out neurotransmitter chemicals can produce subjectivity. What is that way, what vital ingredient does a? neurotransmitter chemical in a brain have that a electron in a chip does not

Marxism and the pursuit of money, sex and power

2012-08-31 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg It's a non-brainer. The Marxist model of man and his government as being saintly and always thinking of the good of the whole flies in the face of reality. Here in the real world, man goes out each day in his basic search for money, sex, and power. Roger Clough,

Re: No Chinese Room Necessary

2012-08-31 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, August 31, 2012 8:39:12 AM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: ACK! I do not ever wish to get into this briar-patch! We could endlessly site particular studies of particular circumstances, but I thought that we where considering big picture concepts. My mistake. My opinion is

Re: Re: Re: No Chinese Room Necessary

2012-08-31 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg Where today is Regressivism and Dystopianism ? Or maybe that was just an ironic comment. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/31/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content -

Re: No Chinese Room Necessary

2012-08-31 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2012/8/31 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com On Friday, August 31, 2012 8:30:50 AM UTC-4, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2012/8/31 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com On Friday, August 31, 2012 4:14:37 AM UTC-4, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2012/8/31 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com On

Re: Marxism and the pursuit of money, sex and power

2012-08-31 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, August 31, 2012 8:55:08 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg It's a non-brainer. The Marxist model of man and his government as being saintly and always thinking of the good of the whole flies in the face of reality. Here in the real world, man goes out each day in

Re: Re: Living in a subjective universe vs having a dual aspect mind

2012-08-31 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King There no doubt are similarities, but IMHO dual-aspect is conceptually headless. Guillotined. Unable to explain Cs and mind. Or if I may, God, for that matter. Hence materialists are mostlhy atheists. The absolutely critical thing missing from dual-aspect monism is

Re: No Chinese Room Necessary

2012-08-31 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, August 31, 2012 8:57:15 AM UTC-4, Quentin Anciaux wrote: I have 'come to Europe' several times but I don't need to move there to find political diversity. I grew up in California. Where political diversity is needed the most is where it is absent. Isn't that the point of

Re: No Chinese Room Necessary

2012-08-31 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2012/8/31 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com On Friday, August 31, 2012 8:57:15 AM UTC-4, Quentin Anciaux wrote: I have 'come to Europe' several times but I don't need to move there to find political diversity. I grew up in California. Where political diversity is needed the most is

Re: Final Evidence: Cannabis causes neuropsychological decline

2012-08-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 31 Aug 2012, at 12:02, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2012/8/31 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 31 Aug 2012, at 10:44, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2012/8/31 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 30 Aug 2012, at 20:01, meekerdb wrote: On 8/29/2012 11:19 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I might write

RE: Non-causal evolution and the innate intelligence of life.

2012-08-31 Thread William R. Buckley
Roger: I rather think you can find many examples of causal, deterministic behavior in biological context. The behavior of ATP Synthase is a case in point. You humble opinion is true that, just an opinion. Observed behavior and good old fashioned measurements strongly suggest you are

Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

2012-08-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
Hi Roger Clough, On 31 Aug 2012, at 11:43, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal Sorry for the continual objections, but I'm just trying to point out to you a hole in your thinking large enough to drive a bus through. LOL However, you keep ignoring my objections, only intended to be

Re: Technological (Machine) Thinking and Lived Being (Erlebnis)

2012-08-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 31 Aug 2012, at 12:03, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg According to Einstein, space doesn't exist per se. Remarkably, Leibniz also came this conclusion back in the 17th century. I agree. And with comp nothing physical exists per se, as some platonists and mystics often

Re: Is evolution moral ?

2012-08-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 31 Aug 2012, at 12:16, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal Yes, cannabis is moral when used to treat illneses. But not moral (not health-enhancing) in all situations. I agree. Like mobile phones is moral when used to call an ambulance. But not moral when driving a car, as it is shown to

Re: CTMU

2012-08-31 Thread Jason Resch
On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 3:44 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Alberto G. Corona He seems to have left out the personal universe of subjectivity. On his wikipedia page, there is this quote which I think mentions subjectivity: In explaining this relationship, the CTMU shows

Re: CTMU

2012-08-31 Thread Jason Resch
I believe it was around the time we last discussed CTMU on the list, but I am not sure. In any case, here is a link to the old thread:

Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

2012-08-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 31 Aug 2012, at 14:08, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, August 31, 2012 4:47:30 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 30 Aug 2012, at 20:09, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, August 30, 2012 1:11:55 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 29 Aug 2012, at 20:09, Craig Weinberg wrote: On

The monadology of life

2012-08-31 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal BRUNO: You object only to my working hypothesis. I just show that you are begging the question. ROGER: What is your working hypothesis ? Maybe you have a paper on that I could look over. At this point I don't know what question I am begging. BRUNO: What parts of the DNA

Re: Re: Technological (Machine) Thinking and Lived Being (Erlebnis)

2012-08-31 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal Perhaps I am misguided, but I thought that comp was moreorless a mechanical model of brain and man activity. I obviously need to peruse your main idea . Do you have a link ? Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/31/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to

Re: Re: CTMU

2012-08-31 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Jason Resch Thanks. I feel a little less antagonistic. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/31/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Jason Resch Receiver: everything-list

Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

2012-08-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 31 Aug 2012, at 14:08, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, August 31, 2012 4:47:30 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 30 Aug 2012, at 20:09, Craig Weinberg wrote: Sense is irreducible. From the first person perspective. Yes. For machine's too. No software can control anything,

Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

2012-08-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 31 Aug 2012, at 14:30, Alberto G. Corona wrote: At this moment of knowledge there is something that I thing everybody will agree: 1) the basic laws may be the same for computers and for minds, but in practical terms, the quantitative differences in well designed organization of the

Re: No Chinese Room Necessary

2012-08-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 31 Aug 2012, at 14:38, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, August 31, 2012 5:17:57 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 30 Aug 2012, at 21:23, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, August 30, 2012 3:03:32 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: Please excuse the word, but comp can only create

Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

2012-08-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 31 Aug 2012, at 15:22, William R. Buckley wrote: Bruno: Is not this quote of yours plain enough as evidence that you said something incoherent: “It isn't really clear exactly what controls what in a living cell.” I never wrote that. I think Roger wrote it. Bruno wrb From:

On biological causation

2012-08-31 Thread Roger Clough
Hi William R. Buckley On one level, you're right, but I think biological causation is different from what we might think of in a physical or chemical sense. For example, semen can unite with an egg to form (cause) a fetus, but that would be quite different from the collision of two billiard

Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

2012-08-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 31 Aug 2012, at 15:24, William R. Buckley wrote: Roger and Bruno: No part of the DNA molecule controls life. DNA is simply a description, a representation of information, a piece of paper upon which letters are written. It is the letter order that controls life. Nothing more. No

Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

2012-08-31 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal Are you saying that comp creates and controls all by means of some kind of code in some Pythagorean realm, where all is numbers ? That everything is computable ? Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/31/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so

Re: Technological (Machine) Thinking and Lived Being (Erlebnis)

2012-08-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
Hi Roger Clough, Hi Bruno Marchal Perhaps I am misguided, but I thought that comp was moreorless a mechanical model of brain and man activity. Not really. Comp is the hypothesis that there is a level of description of my brain or body such that I can be emulated by a computer

Re: Final Evidence: Cannabis causes neuropsychological decline

2012-08-31 Thread Platonist Guitar Cowboy
Yes, but bashing nicotine is also easy. Everybody that surfs internet, especially posting too much is nicotine freak ;) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=internet%20addiction%20chrna4 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To

Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

2012-08-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 31 Aug 2012, at 17:12, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal Are you saying that comp creates and controls all by means of some kind of code in some Pythagorean realm, where all is numbers ? That everything is computable ? Comp is a theory. It does nothing. You grasp it, or you don't,

Re: Re: Marxism and the pursuit of money, sex and power

2012-08-31 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, August 31, 2012 9:14:20 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Right, but that's what communism asks you to do in effect. Marx never used the word saintly or giving your life to the Cause, but that emphasis on others rather than self no doubt prompted Ayn Rand's (she was russian, presumably

Re: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

2012-08-31 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: what vital ingredient does a neurotransmitter chemical in a brain have that a electron in a chip does not have? ROGER: Life. Yes life, I was afraid you might say that. It may interest you to know that the Latin word for Life is

Re: No Chinese Room Necessary

2012-08-31 Thread Stephen P. King
On 8/31/2012 8:56 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, August 31, 2012 8:39:12 AM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: ACK! I do not ever wish to get into this briar-patch! We could endlessly site particular studies of particular circumstances, but I thought that we where

Re: Living in a subjective universe vs having a dual aspect mind

2012-08-31 Thread Stephen P. King
On 8/31/2012 9:05 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King There no doubt are similarities, but IMHO dual-aspect is conceptually headless. Guillotined. Unable to explain Cs and mind. Or if I may, God, for that matter. Hence materialists are mostlhy atheists. The absolutely critical thing

Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

2012-08-31 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 4:58 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: God is necessary because He runs the whole show. And when in His omniscience God asks Himself How is it that I can run the whole show? How is it that I am able to do anything that I want to do? How do my powers work?,

Re: Final Evidence: Cannabis causes neuropsychological decline

2012-08-31 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 31 Aug 2012, at 17:52, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: Yes, but bashing nicotine is also easy. Everybody that surfs internet, especially posting too much is nicotine freak ;) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=internet%20addiction%20chrna4 Interesting. If we don't fight

Re: Re: Marxism and the pursuit of money, sex and power

2012-08-31 Thread R AM
The L-Curve: A Graph of the US Income Distribution http://www.lcurve.org/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

Re: No Chinese Room Necessary

2012-08-31 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, August 31, 2012 12:22:14 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 8/31/2012 8:56 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, August 31, 2012 8:39:12 AM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: ACK! I do not ever wish to get into this briar-patch! We could endlessly site particular

Re: Is evolution moral ?

2012-08-31 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 4:54 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Is Evolution Moral? I think Evolution is a hideously cruel process and if I were God I would have done things very differently, I would have made intense physical pain a physical impossibility, but unfortunately that

Re: Hating the rich

2012-08-31 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, August 31, 2012 4:46:40 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hating the rich is the new racism. Is it? http://www.latimes.com/business/money/la-fi-mo-richest-woman-20120830,0,3323996.story Craig -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything

Re: What is thinking ?

2012-08-31 Thread meekerdb
On 8/31/2012 1:01 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 30 Aug 2012, at 18:56, meekerdb wrote: On 8/30/2012 9:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 30 Aug 2012, at 17:16, Brian Tenneson wrote: Thinking implies a progression of time. So perhaps it is equally important to define time. In the

Re: No Chinese Room Necessary

2012-08-31 Thread meekerdb
On 8/31/2012 1:13 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 30 Aug 2012, at 19:19, meekerdb wrote: On 8/30/2012 10:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 29 Aug 2012, at 22:30, meekerdb wrote: From experience I know people tend not to adopt it, but let me recommend a distinction. Moral is what I expect of

Re: While computers are causal, life is not causal.

2012-08-31 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, August 31, 2012 8:30:12 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg While computers are causal, perception is not causal. Nothing that living things do is causal. They have an uncaused first or governing cause called the self. Thus life does not have to be causal and

Re: No Chinese Room Necessary

2012-08-31 Thread meekerdb
On 8/31/2012 10:16 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: Uruguay, Armenia, El Salvador, Botswana, Peru, Columbia, Mexico, Albania, Belize, Uganda, Guatemala, have capitalist economies while Sweden is socialist and China is Communist. But Sweden isn't socialist - the government doesn't own the major means

Fwd: The biological advantages of being awestruck

2012-08-31 Thread meekerdb
Original Message The biological advantages of being awestruck: http://vimeo.com/46264514 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To

Re: No Chinese Room Necessary

2012-08-31 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, August 31, 2012 2:48:44 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 8/31/2012 10:16 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: Uruguay, Armenia, El Salvador, Botswana, Peru, Columbia, Mexico, Albania, Belize, Uganda, Guatemala, have capitalist economies while Sweden is socialist and China is Communist. But

Re: Re: Technological (Machine) Thinking and Lived Being (Erlebnis)

2012-08-31 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, August 31, 2012 5:53:24 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg You're on the right track, but everybody from Plato on says that the Platonic world is timeless, eternal. And nonextended or spaceless (nonlocal). Leibniz's world of monads satisfies these requirements.

Re: Good is that which enhances life

2012-08-31 Thread John Mikes
Richard: with all my agreement so far, would you continue: 2. Have you ever been pregnant? if not, do not talk into the topic! 3. Are you on Medicare? if you are on the 'aristocratic' -- (so called Cadillac) - governmental health care system, --- don't talk into it! 4. Are you on

Re: Good is that which enhances life

2012-08-31 Thread Richard Ruquist
John, 1. Yes 2. No 3. Yes 4. Yes 5. No 6. Yes and so on. Richard On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 5:19 PM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Richard: with all my agreement so far, would you continue: 2. Have you ever been pregnant? if not, do not talk into the topic! 3. Are you on Medicare?