Re: Our Creator Is A Cosmic Computer Programmer

2012-09-04 Thread Alberto G. Corona
In my humle opinion, This is a sign of the times. In an era of nomadism, God was a shepherd . Peasants thought that the world was the God vineyard. During the XVIII XIX where most of the cities were expanded,God was an architect. Apparently the mecanicist metaphor of the industrial revolution was

Re: Why a bacterium has more intelligence than a computer

2012-09-04 Thread Alberto G. Corona
At this moment this is true. Another thing is if the computer could become intelligent enough. It is not easy to admit that the belief in the possibility of making something intelligent exist well before computers. Since the industrial revolution, some people believed in the possibility of making

Re: Re: Monads with power steering

2012-09-04 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Richard Ruquist Good question. My response is that the monads only refer as a whole to physical entities. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/4/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content

consciousness as the experiencre of time

2012-09-04 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg The experience of time is called consciousness, the simplest kind. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/4/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Craig Weinberg

Semiotics and 1p

2012-09-04 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg I think that Peirce came closest to giving a useful account of 1p is in his triadic diagrams and in his categories. The three categories expand into a 3x3 matrix (below) which breaks down 1p experience into 9 categories of interactions of self with symbols. This science of

Re: Re: Re: Hating the rich

2012-09-04 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg It's tribal thinking on both sides. Still, although it's pointless, I'll throw a spear occcasionally. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/4/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the

Re: Re: Our Creator Is A Cosmic Computer Programmer

2012-09-04 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Alberto G. Corona I agree. I would say that God is not a computer program, rather, God is the programmer (as in preestablished harmony). Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/4/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. -

Re: Re: There is no such thing as cause and effect

2012-09-04 Thread Roger Clough
Hi John Clark OK. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/4/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: John Clark Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-03, 13:38:01 Subject: Re:

Re: Re: There is no such thing as cause and effect

2012-09-04 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal In 1) you left out the someone to be conscious. Consciousness needs a subject. In 2) you left out the our. Consciousness needs a subject. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/4/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could

Re: Re: Hating the rich

2012-09-04 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Richard Ruquist The fundamentalists are wrong in thinking that the Bible is a science textbook. The scientists are wrong in believing that they need to disprove a spiritual, nonscientific message. Let science be science and the Bible be the Bible. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net

Re: Re: monads as numbers

2012-09-04 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg I can't see any usefulness for a computer or calculator where the same number is recalculated over and over. Think of a Turing tape running through a processor. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/4/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that

Re: Why a bacterium has more intelligence than a computer

2012-09-04 Thread Alberto G. Corona
I mean good design not god design 2012/9/4 Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com: At this moment this is true. Another thing is if the computer could become intelligent enough. It is not easy to admit that the belief in the possibility of making something intelligent exist well before

Re: Re: There is no such thing as cause and effect

2012-09-04 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal In 1) you left out the someone to be conscious. Consciousness needs a subject. In 2) you left out the our. Consciousness needs a subject. Consciousness needs a subjective point of view but if you

Semiosis of the monad

2012-09-04 Thread Roger Clough
Semiosis of the monad This is very very speculative. I'm no mathematician. THESIS: Somehow there ought to be a connection between Peirce's semiotics and Leibniz's monads. Let these be given as forms of computation, a) the columns being the STAGES of computation b) the rows being the TYPE of

Re: Re: Why a bacterium has more intelligence than a computer

2012-09-04 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Alberto G. Corona IMHO you can't have intelligence without a 1p perceiver. Only life can do that. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/4/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From:

Re: Re: Re: There is no such thing as cause and effect

2012-09-04 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg I'm not talking about subjectivity in everyday terms, but rather in logical terms. Cs = subject + object Where's the subject ? Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/4/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function.

Re: There is no such thing as cause and effect

2012-09-04 Thread Alberto G. Corona
causality exist in the world of the mind, not in the external world. In a block universe where the universe is a mathematical manifold, where time is embedded, and thus has nothing but a local meaning, causality also has no meaning, except for the living being that go along a line of maximum

Re: Re: Where Chalmers went wrong

2012-09-04 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King I probably knew that but forgot. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/4/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time:

Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

2012-09-04 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 03 Sep 2012, at 21:24, benjayk wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 03 Sep 2012, at 15:11, benjayk wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: If you disagree, please tell me why. I don't disagree. I just point on the fact that you don't give any justification of your belief. If you are correct,

Re: Where Chalmers went wrong

2012-09-04 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 03 Sep 2012, at 20:57, Stephen P. King wrote: On 9/3/2012 10:09 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stathis Papaioannou IMHO Chalmer's biggest error has been not to recognize that the self does not appear in all of neurophilosophy. This IMHO is the glaring shortcoming of materialism. The lights

Re: Our Creator Is A Cosmic Computer Programmer

2012-09-04 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 03 Sep 2012, at 22:51, Richard Ruquist wrote: FYI Our Creator Is A Cosmic Computer Programmer - Says JPL Scientist 3 September, 2012 Share this story: Share on facebook Share on twitter Share on email Share on print More Sharing Services 5 Follow us: MessageToEagle.com - Are we just a

Re: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

2012-09-04 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 8:39 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: From: Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net God can be thought of as cosmic intelligence And if humans are the only intelligence in the cosmos (and they might be) then the human race is God. or life itself. If as you say

Re: There is no such thing as cause and effect

2012-09-04 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 04 Sep 2012, at 13:55, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal In 1) you left out the someone to be conscious. Consciousness needs a subject. In 1) the subject is you. In 2) you left out the our. Consciousness needs a subject. In 2) the our is not left, as I mention it explicitly.

Re: There is no such thing as cause and effect

2012-09-04 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 03 Sep 2012, at 21:29, meekerdb wrote: On 9/3/2012 8:06 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: 3) It's also probably why taxing the rich ultimnately doesn''t work, it lowers everybody's income to fit the curve. A nd why trickle down doesn't work. I do agree with this. The leftist idea of

Re: There is no such thing as cause and effect

2012-09-04 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 03 Sep 2012, at 18:22, John Mikes wrote: Bruno wrote: ... If you are OK to semi-axiomatically define God by 1) what is responsible for our existence 2) so big as to be beyond nameability Then there is a God in comp... Is it fair to say that you substitute (= use) the G O D word in a

Re: Good is that which enhances life

2012-09-04 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 03 Sep 2012, at 17:45, Richard Ruquist wrote: My experience is that canabis increases my motivation and creativity. Am I an exception? You are certainly not, as the guitar boy provided a sample of people inspired by cannabis. Cannabis is also useful to break negative connotations that

Re: Why a bacterium has more intelligence than a computer

2012-09-04 Thread Jason Resch
On Sep 4, 2012, at 6:55 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Jason Resch Where is the aware subject in the computer ? Where is the aware subject in you? What color eyes does he have ? A blind and deaf person still has a subject, no? Jason Roger Clough,

Re: Re: There is no such thing as cause and effect

2012-09-04 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal IMHO God is the All, or better said, the uncreated intelligence behind all creation. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/4/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From:

Re: Re: Why a bacterium has more intelligence than a computer

2012-09-04 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Jason Resch Good point, but I was thinking of a perceiving/feeling subject. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/4/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Jason Resch Receiver:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

2012-09-04 Thread Roger Clough
Hi John Clark No, God created the human race. So the human race cannot be God. IMHO God is the uncreated infinite intelligence behind/before/beyond/within Creation itself. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/4/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that

Re: Why a bacterium has more intelligence than a computer

2012-09-04 Thread Jason Resch
On Sep 4, 2012, at 5:57 AM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: At this moment this is true. Another thing is if the computer could become intelligent enough. It is not easy to admit that the belief in the possibility of making something intelligent exist well before computers.

Re: Simple proof that our intelligence transcends that of computers

2012-09-04 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 03 Sep 2012, at 16:12, benjayk wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Aug 2012, at 15:12, benjayk wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 24 Aug 2012, at 12:04, benjayk wrote: But this avoides my point that we can't imagine that levels, context and ambiguity don't exist, and this is why

Re: Where Chalmers went wrong

2012-09-04 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 03 Sep 2012, at 16:09, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stathis Papaioannou IMHO Chalmer's biggest error has been not to recognize that the self does not appear in all of neurophilosophy. This IMHO is the glaring shortcoming of materialism. The lights are on, but nobody's home. The self is a

Re: Re: Toward emulating life with a monadic computer

2012-09-04 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King IMHO I would put it that life begets life, no means required. Just as at Christmas time in church we pass a flame from one candle to another. Creation was like an ignition of life like a flame, like lighting a match. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/4/2012 Leibniz

Re: Re: There is no such thing as cause and effect

2012-09-04 Thread Roger Clough
Anybody who believes that we are all born equal probably doesn't have any children. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/4/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: meekerdb

Re: Re: Why a bacterium has more intelligence than a computer

2012-09-04 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Jason Resch IMHO Not to disparage the superb work that computers can do, but I think that it is a mistake to anthropo-morphise the computer. It has no intelligence, no life, no awareness, there's nothing magic about it. It's just a complex bunch of diodes and transistors. Roger Clough,

Re: There is no such thing as cause and effect

2012-09-04 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 12:59 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: The idea that someone considers the sum total of human thought irrelevant What on earth are you talking about? The scribblings of Hume and Leibniz were not the sum total of human thought even 300 years ago when

Re: There is no such thing as cause and effect

2012-09-04 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 9:36 AM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.comwrote: Natural selection is not causal, it chooses [blah blah] Not causal it chooses is a contradiction of terms; and natural selection is causal but the other half of Evolution, random mutation, is obviously not causal,

Re: Simple proof that our intelligence transcends that of computers

2012-09-04 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/4/2012 10:55 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 24 Aug 2012, at 12:04, benjayk wrote: Strangely you agree for the 1-p viewpoint. But given that's what you *actually* live, I don't see how it makes sense to than proceed that there is a meaningful 3-p point of view where this isn't true. This

Re: Re: Why a bacterium has more intelligence than a computer

2012-09-04 Thread Jason Resch
Here is the link I mentioned: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdg4mU-wuhI On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Jason Resch IMHO Not to disparage the superb work that computers can do, but I think that it is a mistake to anthropo-morphise the computer.

Re: Toward emulating life with a monadic computer

2012-09-04 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/4/2012 10:58 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King IMHO I would put it that life begets life, no means required. Just as at Christmas time in church we pass a flame from one candle to another. Creation was like an ignition of life like a flame, like lighting a match. Hi Roger,

Re: There is no such thing as cause and effect

2012-09-04 Thread Stephen P. King
Hear Hear! I recommend the movieHarrison Bergeron http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmEOI5zwFMM as a demonstration of the ill effects that follow attempts to generate equality in a population. On 9/4/2012 11:05 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Anybody who believes that we are all born equal

Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

2012-09-04 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 9:11 AM, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.comwrote: Showing scientifically that nature is infinite isn't really possible. Maybe not. In Turing's proof he assumed that machines could not operate with infinite numbers, so if there is a theory of everything (and there

Re: Why a bacterium has more intelligence than a computer

2012-09-04 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/4/2012 11:17 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Jason Resch IMHO Not to disparage the superb work that computers can do, but I think that it is a mistake to anthropo-morphise the computer. It has no intelligence, no life, no awareness, there's nothing magic about it. It's just a complex bunch of

RE: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

2012-09-04 Thread William R. Buckley
Seems funny that Turing .assumed that machines could not operate with infinite numbers. given that the tape is assumed to be infinite. wrb From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2012 8:59 AM To:

Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

2012-09-04 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2012/9/4 William R. Buckley bill.buck...@gmail.com Seems funny that Turing “…assumed that machines could not operate with infinite numbers…” given that the tape is assumed to be infinite. Not really infinite but it has no boundaries, it can always extend if needed. At any given time the used

Re: Re: Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

2012-09-04 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: God created the human race. And when God asks Himself the question Why have I always existed, why haven't I always not existed? what answer in his omniscience does He come up with? God is the uncreated infinite intelligence There

RE: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

2012-09-04 Thread William R. Buckley
While at any moment the tape may be finite, that it can at need grow is the fundamental notion of infinite. One can hardly take a set of LARGE size (like half of the infinite set) and, say by weighing or by volumetric scale, determine if it is different from any truly infinite set. The point

Re: Why a bacterium has more intelligence than a computer

2012-09-04 Thread Jason Resch
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.netwrote: On 9/4/2012 11:17 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Jason Resch IMHO Not to disparage the superb work that computers can do, but I think that it is a mistake to anthropo-morphise the computer. It has no intelligence, no

Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

2012-09-04 Thread Quentin Anciaux
Well, the fact that at *any* moment the tape is of finite length explains why it can't handle *infinite* numbers... there is nothing funny about that. Quentin 2012/9/4 William R. Buckley bill.buck...@gmail.com While at any moment the tape may be finite, that it can at need grow is the

The All

2012-09-04 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal According to Leibniz there is only one live perceiver, and that he calls the Supreme Monad. Actually, not the monad itself, but what sees through the monad.Then when we see individually we all must be seeing through that one eye. I believe it's Plato's All, or in my terms,

Re: Why a bacterium has more intelligence than a computer

2012-09-04 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/4/2012 1:19 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net mailto:stephe...@charter.net wrote: On 9/4/2012 11:17 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Jason Resch IMHO Not to disparage the superb work that computers can do, but I

Re: There is no such thing as cause and effect

2012-09-04 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, September 4, 2012 11:37:37 AM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 12:59 AM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: The idea that someone considers the sum total of human thought irrelevant What on earth are you talking about? The

Re: Re: Re: Hating the rich

2012-09-04 Thread Craig Weinberg
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7d8fykSPB1qz4sr8o1_500.jpg On Tuesday, September 4, 2012 7:56:38 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg It's tribal thinking on both sides. Still, although it's pointless, I'll throw a spear occcasionally. Roger Clough,

Re: Re: monads as numbers

2012-09-04 Thread Craig Weinberg
Hi Roger, Not sure what you are getting at. We can't see any usefulness for eating chocolate until the bar is gone, but we still do it. On Tuesday, September 4, 2012 7:56:45 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg I can't see any usefulness for a computer or calculator where the

Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

2012-09-04 Thread benjayk
John Clark-12 wrote: On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 9:11 AM, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.comwrote: Showing scientifically that nature is infinite isn't really possible. Maybe not. In Turing's proof he assumed that machines could not operate with infinite numbers, so if there is a

Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

2012-09-04 Thread benjayk
Bruno Marchal wrote: Yes, we simulated some systems, but they couldn't perform the same function. A pump does the function of an heart. No. A pump just pumps blood. The heart also performs endocrine functions, it can react dynamically to the brain, it can grow, it can heal, it can become

Re: Why a bacterium has more intelligence than a computer

2012-09-04 Thread Jason Resch
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 1:33 PM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.netwrote: On 9/4/2012 1:19 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.netwrote: On 9/4/2012 11:17 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Jason Resch IMHO Not to disparage the superb

Re: There is no such thing as cause and effect

2012-09-04 Thread John Mikes
First to Bruno's response to *(R):3) It's also probably why taxing the rich ultimately doesn''t work, it lowers every body's income to fit the curve. A nd why trickle down doesn't work.* ** *I do agree with this. The leftist idea of distributing richness cannot work for many reasons. But

Re: There is no such thing as cause and effect

2012-09-04 Thread meekerdb
On 9/4/2012 1:12 PM, John Mikes wrote: *//* It is a 'trap' to falsify the adequate taxing of the 'rich' as a *leftist attempt to distributing richness*. It does not include more than a requirement for THEM to pay their FAIR share - maybe more than the not-so-rich layers (e.g. higher use of

Re: There is no such thing as cause and effect

2012-09-04 Thread Richard Ruquist
What struck me is that the the USERS of wealth in directing the life of the country. seem to be exporting jobs overseas and hiding their money there as well. Richard On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 4:12 PM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: First to Bruno's response to (R):3) It's also probably why

Re: Simple proof that our intelligence transcends that of computers

2012-09-04 Thread benjayk
Bruno Marchal wrote: Right. It makes only first person sense to PA. But then RA has succeeded in making PA alive, and PA could a posteriori realize that the RA level was enough. Sorry, but it can't. It can't even abstract itself out to see that the RA level would be enough. Why? No

Re: Why a bacterium has more intelligence than a computer

2012-09-04 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, September 4, 2012 4:06:06 PM UTC-4, Jason wrote: The point that I am making is that our brain seems to be continuously generating a virtual reality model of the world that includes our body and what we are conscious of is that model. I like this description of a

Re: Why a bacterium has more intelligence than a computer

2012-09-04 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/4/2012 4:06 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 1:33 PM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net mailto:stephe...@charter.net wrote: On 9/4/2012 1:19 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net

Re: There is no such thing as cause and effect

2012-09-04 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/4/2012 4:23 PM, Richard Ruquist wrote: What struck me is that the the USERS of wealth in directing the life of the country. seem to be exporting jobs overseas and hiding their money there as well. Richard OK, let us confiscate all capital and distribute it evenly to every one. Then

Re: consciousness as the experiencre of time

2012-09-04 Thread Craig Weinberg
That's what I'm saying. You can have ideal consciousness without space. On Tuesday, September 4, 2012 7:56:36 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg The experience of time is called consciousness, the simplest kind. Roger Clough, rcl...@verizon.net javascript: 9/4/2012

Re: There is no such thing as cause and effect

2012-09-04 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, September 4, 2012 8:49:45 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 9/4/2012 4:23 PM, Richard Ruquist wrote: What struck me is that the the USERS of wealth in directing the life of the country. seem to be exporting jobs overseas and hiding their money there as well. Richard

Re: There is no such thing as cause and effect

2012-09-04 Thread Richard Ruquist
Don't be silly. On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 8:49 PM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net wrote: On 9/4/2012 4:23 PM, Richard Ruquist wrote: What struck me is that the the USERS of wealth in directing the life of the country. seem to be exporting jobs overseas and hiding their money there as

Re: Why a bacterium has more intelligence than a computer

2012-09-04 Thread Jason Resch
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 7:39 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: On Tuesday, September 4, 2012 4:06:06 PM UTC-4, Jason wrote: The point that I am making is that our brain seems to be continuously generating a virtual reality model of the world that includes our body and

Sane2004 Step One

2012-09-04 Thread Craig Weinberg
Taking another look at Sane2004. This isn't so much as a challenge to Bruno, just sharing my notes of why I disagree. Not sure how far I will get this time, but here are my objections to the first step and the stipulated assumptions of comp. I understand that the point is to accept the given

Re: Why a bacterium has more intelligence than a computer

2012-09-04 Thread Jason Resch
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 7:42 PM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.netwrote: On 9/4/2012 4:06 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 1:33 PM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.netwrote: On 9/4/2012 1:19 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Stephen P. King

Re: Sane2004 Step One

2012-09-04 Thread Russell Standish
On Tue, Sep 04, 2012 at 06:48:58PM -0700, Craig Weinberg wrote: I have problems with all three of the comp assumptions: *yes, doctor*: This is really the sleight of hand that props up the entire thought experiment. If you agree that you are nothing but your brain function and that your

Re: Sane2004 Step One

2012-09-04 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, September 4, 2012 10:09:45 PM UTC-4, Russell Standish wrote: On Tue, Sep 04, 2012 at 06:48:58PM -0700, Craig Weinberg wrote: I have problems with all three of the comp assumptions: *yes, doctor*: This is really the sleight of hand that props up the entire thought

Re: Why a bacterium has more intelligence than a computer

2012-09-04 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/4/2012 8:39 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, September 4, 2012 4:06:06 PM UTC-4, Jason wrote: The point that I am making is that our brain seems to be continuously generating a virtual reality model of the world that includes our body and what we are

Re: There is no such thing as cause and effect

2012-09-04 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/4/2012 9:07 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, September 4, 2012 8:49:45 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 9/4/2012 4:23 PM, Richard Ruquist wrote: What struck me is that the the USERS of wealth in directing the life of the country. seem to be exporting jobs

Re: Sane2004 Step One

2012-09-04 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/4/2012 9:48 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: Taking another look at Sane2004. This isn't so much as a challenge to Bruno, just sharing my notes of why I disagree. Not sure how far I will get this time, but here are my objections to the first step and the stipulated assumptions of comp. I

Re: Sane2004 Step One

2012-09-04 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 11:48 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: yes, doctor: This is really the sleight of hand that props up the entire thought experiment. If you agree that you are nothing but your brain function and that your brain function can be replaced by the functioning

Re: Sane2004 Step One

2012-09-04 Thread meekerdb
On 9/4/2012 7:19 PM, Russell Standish wrote: On Tue, Sep 04, 2012 at 06:48:58PM -0700, Craig Weinberg wrote: I have problems with all three of the comp assumptions: *yes, doctor*: This is really the sleight of hand that props up the entire thought experiment. If you agree that you are nothing

Re: Why a bacterium has more intelligence than a computer

2012-09-04 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/4/2012 9:54 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 7:42 PM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net mailto:stephe...@charter.net wrote: Hi Jason, Yes, but think of it as a window where everything in it is effectively simultaneous. Perhaps this is the

Re: Sane2004 Step One

2012-09-04 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/4/2012 10:19 PM, Russell Standish wrote: On Tue, Sep 04, 2012 at 06:48:58PM -0700, Craig Weinberg wrote: I have problems with all three of the comp assumptions: *yes, doctor*: This is really the sleight of hand that props up the entire thought experiment. If you agree that you are nothing

Re: Sane2004 Step One

2012-09-04 Thread meekerdb
On 9/4/2012 8:59 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: Notice that both the duplication and the teleportation, as discussed, assume that the information content is exactly copyable. Not exactly. Only sufficiently accurately to maintain your consciousness. This is not qubits that are involved... The

Re: There is no such thing as cause and effect

2012-09-04 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, September 4, 2012 11:14:17 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 9/4/2012 9:07 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, September 4, 2012 8:49:45 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 9/4/2012 4:23 PM, Richard Ruquist wrote: What struck me is that the the USERS of wealth

Re: Why a bacterium has more intelligence than a computer

2012-09-04 Thread Jason Resch
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 11:23 PM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.netwrote: On 9/4/2012 9:54 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 7:42 PM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.netwrote: Hi Jason, Yes, but think of it as a window where everything in it is effectively

Re: Sane2004 Step One

2012-09-04 Thread meekerdb
On 9/4/2012 9:37 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: Hi Russel, In Craig's defense. When did ontological considerations become a matter of contingency? You cannot Choose what is Real! But you choose what is real in your theory of the world. Then you see how well your theory measures up. The

Re: Sane2004 Step One

2012-09-04 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/5/2012 12:14 AM, meekerdb wrote: On 9/4/2012 7:19 PM, Russell Standish wrote: On Tue, Sep 04, 2012 at 06:48:58PM -0700, Craig Weinberg wrote: I have problems with all three of the comp assumptions: *yes, doctor*: This is really the sleight of hand that props up the entire thought

Re: Sane2004 Step One

2012-09-04 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/5/2012 12:38 AM, meekerdb wrote: On 9/4/2012 8:59 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: Notice that both the duplication and the teleportation, as discussed, assume that the information content is exactly copyable. Not exactly. Only sufficiently accurately to maintain your consciousness. If