Re: Why the Church-Turing thesis?

2012-09-11 Thread benjayk
Quentin Anciaux-2 wrote: 2012/9/10 benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com No program can determine its hardware. This is a consequence of the Church Turing thesis. The particular machine at the lowest level has no bearing (from the program's perspective). If that is

Re: Why the Church-Turing thesis?

2012-09-11 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2012/9/11 benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com Quentin Anciaux-2 wrote: 2012/9/10 benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com No program can determine its hardware. This is a consequence of the Church Turing thesis. The particular machine at the lowest level has no

Re: Simple proof that our intelligence transcends that of computers

2012-09-11 Thread benjayk
Our discussion is going nowhere. You don't see my points and assume I want to attack you (and thus are defensive and not open to my criticism), and I am obviously frustrated by that, which is not conducive to a good discussion. We are not opertaing on the same level. You argue using rational,

Re: Why the Church-Turing thesis?

2012-09-11 Thread benjayk
Quentin Anciaux-2 wrote: 2012/9/11 benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com Quentin Anciaux-2 wrote: 2012/9/10 benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com No program can determine its hardware. This is a consequence of the Church Turing thesis. The particular machine

Re: Why the Church-Turing thesis?

2012-09-11 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2012/9/11 benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com Quentin Anciaux-2 wrote: 2012/9/11 benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com Quentin Anciaux-2 wrote: 2012/9/10 benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com No program can determine its hardware. This is a consequence

The self (the amygdala) and the triune brain

2012-09-11 Thread Roger Clough
The self (the amygdala) and the triune brain Since neuroscience omits or seems not to feature the most important part of the brain, the self, I've decided to try to locate it. I believe it is the amygdala.

Re: Re: victims of faith

2012-09-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Alberto G. Corona Thge atheist's god is himself. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/11/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Alberto G. Corona Receiver: everything-list

Re: Why the Church-Turing thesis?

2012-09-11 Thread benjayk
Quentin Anciaux-2 wrote: 2012/9/11 benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com Quentin Anciaux-2 wrote: 2012/9/11 benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com Quentin Anciaux-2 wrote: 2012/9/10 benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com No program can determine its

Re: Re: fairness and sustainability

2012-09-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal That's fine. Although it is a bit out-dated an idea, I conceive of the evil acting in evil people metaphorically as demons. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/11/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. -

Re: Why the Church-Turing thesis?

2012-09-11 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2012/9/11 benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com Quentin Anciaux-2 wrote: 2012/9/11 benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com Quentin Anciaux-2 wrote: 2012/9/11 benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com Quentin Anciaux-2 wrote: 2012/9/10 benjayk

Re: Re: The sin of NDAA

2012-09-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal It is ironic that Obama followed Bush policy economically (more spending) and also much like Bush in warfare, although a bit more timidly. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/11/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could

Re: Why the Church-Turing thesis?

2012-09-11 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2012/9/11 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com 2012/9/11 benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com Quentin Anciaux-2 wrote: 2012/9/11 benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com Quentin Anciaux-2 wrote: 2012/9/11 benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.com Quentin

If I ever doubt that there is a God,

2012-09-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal If I ever doubt that there is a God, the regularity of Newton's physics or the microscopic structure of a snowflake dispels such doubt. These show design. Design cannot be made randomly. So there must be some intelligence interweaved in Nature. I call that God. That nature

Re: Re: My limited support for the atheists

2012-09-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stathis, You say : My primary problem with religion is the poverty or non validity of argument, notably based on text or per authority, instead of personal inquiry. You could say the same thing about Da Vinci's Mona Lisa. Or values in general. Science can only deal with fact. Values are

Re: Re: victims of faith

2012-09-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi meekerdb Belief in God is a gift from God, you cannot achieve it on your own. The same is also true of salvation. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/11/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following

Re: Re: The poverty of computers

2012-09-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi meekerdb Using religion to prove anything in this world would be like using Mozart to build a bridge. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/11/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content -

Re: Re: victims of faith

2012-09-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi meekerdb Science is science and religion is religion and never the two shall meet. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/11/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: meekerdb

Re: If I ever doubt that there is a God,

2012-09-11 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 7:29:00 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal If I ever doubt that there is a God, the regularity of Newton's physics or the microscopic structure of a snowflake dispels such doubt. These show design. Design cannot be made randomly. So there

Re: Physicist Derives Laws of Thermodynamics For Life Itself

2012-09-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Richard Ruquist Does life thrive in a prebiotic soup ? Then he's done. But he doesn't really say how he starts-- if with bacteria he cheats, because they are already alive. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/11/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that

Re: victims of faith

2012-09-11 Thread Alberto G. Corona
2012/9/10 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net: On 9/10/2012 12:50 PM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: This paper of an evolutionist scientific denounces the mytification of Darwin, the spread of false claims that enhance his figure and even the creation of a physical temple around these myths.

Re: Re: The self (the amygdala) and the triune brain

2012-09-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Albert, They commonly use IMRI (which detects which parts of the brain are operating at the moment) to find which parts of the brakin function at certain times. They find that introspective reflection turns on an areas in the prefrontal cortex:

Re: victims of faith

2012-09-11 Thread Alberto G. Corona
every statement about whatever, included reality is made with mental concepts . The definition of truth, reality , factual, religion, depend on axioms or unproved statements. I presented a computational-evolutionary, falsable, exposition of what religion is: a part of a wider class of

Re: Re: My limited support for the atheists

2012-09-11 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 9:38 PM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Stathis, You say : My primary problem with religion is the poverty or non validity of argument, notably based on text or per authority, instead of personal inquiry. I didn't say that, Bruno did, but I agree. You

Re: The self (the amygdala) and the triune brain

2012-09-11 Thread Craig Weinberg
Nah, the function of the amygdala only contributes one range of sense and motive to the self. http://health.usnews.com/health-news/family-health/brain-and-behavior/articles/2010/12/16/brain-anomaly-leaves-woman-without-fear This woman has no amygdala, but besides not being able to experience or

Re: Re: Re: Racism ? How's that implied ?

2012-09-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg I am intolerant of stupidity and deception, particularly when the idea of carbon credits pops up. This suggests that Global warming is just a method of raising taxes, diminishing coal and oil, and even globally sharing the wealth. Thankfully china won't go along with this

Re: Re: What must the perceiver be like?

2012-09-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg The Creator is not created. So no problem. And the supreme monad is able to do all of the functions of a homunculus. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/11/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. -

Re: Re: fairness and sustainability

2012-09-11 Thread Craig Weinberg
Hi Roger, Do demons have free will? Or are the evil actions of people an involuntary gift from God? Is there another option? Craig On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 7:19:23 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal That's fine. Although it is a bit out-dated an idea, I conceive of the

Re: Re: If I ever doubt that there is a God,

2012-09-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg Intelligence is by (my) definition an autonomous function, so over-layers are not only forbidden, they are not needed. But God does have to follow laws he already created. If you jump off of a building you will fall to your death. I'm missing a possible problem there. Roger

Re: victims of faith

2012-09-11 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 10:25 PM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: every statement about whatever, included reality is made with mental concepts . The definition of truth, reality , factual, religion, depend on axioms or unproved statements. I presented a

fight or flight

2012-09-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg Her amygdala was damaged, not removed. It would be interesting to study a person who lost or never had an amygdala. My thinking on the amygdala as self is that it is so very, very basic, as self mnust be. The possibility of fear fight-or-flight is about as basic as you can

Re: Re: victims of faith

2012-09-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Alberto G. Corona Religious communion with God and prayer are transcendental so not computable. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/11/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From:

Re: Re: What must the perceiver be like?

2012-09-11 Thread Craig Weinberg
Hi Roger, On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 8:36:47 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg The Creator is not created. So no problem. Why not just say The Universe is not created. So no problem? What does the idea of an uncreated Creator add that has any explanatory power? Would the

Re: victims of faith

2012-09-11 Thread Jason Resch
On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 7:45 AM, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.comwrote: But what is unique about religion is that its proponents make factual statements which they proudly profess to believe in the absence of any supporting evidence, while disallowing such reasoning for bizarre beliefs

Re: Re: victims of faith

2012-09-11 Thread Jason Resch
On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 6:54 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi meekerdb Science is science and religion is religion and never the two shall meet. I'm not sure about this Roger. The goal of a true science and true religion, in my opinion, is the search of truth. In the Bahá'í

Re: Re: If I ever doubt that there is a God,

2012-09-11 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 8:41:13 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg Intelligence is by (my) definition an autonomous function, so over-layers are not only forbidden, they are not needed. What is God if not an over-layer of intelligence? But God does have to follow

Re: fight or flight

2012-09-11 Thread Craig Weinberg
Hi Roger, No, that is not what the article says: Researchers who have studied a woman with *a missing amygdala* S.M. suffers from an extremely rare disease that *destroyed her amygdala*. It's as straightforward as it can be. The idea that the amygala constitutes the entire experience of

Re: Re: victims of faith

2012-09-11 Thread Jason Resch
On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 7:50 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Alberto G. Corona Religious communion with God and prayer are transcendental so not computable. Even those of the past who looked down on the barbaric and uncivilized native people believed they could be converted

Why bad things can happen to anybody, good or bad.

2012-09-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg All evil and suffering are caused either by men and by natural catastrophe. Men have free will, so they can do evil. Nature must follow the laws of physics etc. The evil actions are referred to as under God's permissible will. But yes since God causes everything to happen, he

Re: Re: Re: What must the perceiver be like?

2012-09-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg But the universe IS created. I believe that Satan wrote the Koran, but not the Bible, for the Bible asks us to love and forgive each other. Writing that would burn the Devil's fingers. So the koran seems to omit the part about loving and forgiving each other. Roger

Re: Re: Re: If I ever doubt that there is a God,

2012-09-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg God encompasses everything, so no overlayer is possible. Powerless to change ? God did perform some miracles such as the virgin birth and the Resurrection. To one who created the universe, these would have been child's play. But otherwise, God is justice, so it doesn't make

Re: fight or flight

2012-09-11 Thread Craig Weinberg
Roger, I do see other articles where that patient SM is described as having amygdala lesions, but the animal studies out there don't make any distinction between the results of amygdala lesions and amygdala removal. Either way, it seems the amygdala doesn't function. On Tuesday, September 11,

WHOOPS!

2012-09-11 Thread Roger Clough
WHOOPS! Sorry I sent the email about the amygdala-- somebody found that a woman with no amygdala still could talk etc, normally. - mindbr...@yahoogroups.com,everything-list Nah, the function of the amygdala only contributes one range of sense and motive to the self.

Re: Why bad things can happen to anybody, good or bad.

2012-09-11 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 9:05 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg All evil and suffering are caused either by men and by natural catastrophe. Men have free will, so they can do evil. Nature must follow the laws of physics etc. The evil actions are referred to as

Re: Re: If I ever doubt that there is a God,

2012-09-11 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 10:40 PM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Intelligence is by (my) definition an autonomous function, so over-layers are not only forbidden, they are not needed. But God does have to follow laws he already created. If you jump off of a building you will fall to

Reason is and ever ought to be, the slave of passion.

2012-09-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Jason Resch Faith (trust) and love trump logic every time. If my neighbor has riches, it would be logical to rob him blind. Reason is and ever ought to be, the slave of passion. David Hume Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/11/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to

What if someone dies of cancer ?

2012-09-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg If someone they love dies of cancer, their survivors sometimes say it was God's will. I don't think so. God didn't kill the patient, the cancer did. God fights for life, which is what goodness aims for. Cancer aims for death. So a battle goes on in every cancer patient.

Re: Re: Re: What must the perceiver be like?

2012-09-11 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 9:10:46 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg But the universe IS created. I can say that God IS created too. Here goes: God IS created. Whatever created the universe would have to also be the universe, or an arbitrary conceptual partition thereof.

Re: Re: victims of faith

2012-09-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Jason Resch There are some factual errors in the Bible but IMHO the Bible is inerrant with regard to faith and moral practice. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/11/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the

searching for truth

2012-09-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Jason Resch The Bible says that Jesus is the Truth. Jesus does not give recipes that show the way to God as other teachers of religion do. He is himself the way. Karl Barth Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/11/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so

Re: What if someone dies of cancer ?

2012-09-11 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 9:42 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg If someone they love dies of cancer, their survivors sometimes say it was God's will. I don't think so. God didn't kill the patient, the cancer did. God fights for life, which is what goodness

Re: Re: Re: victims of faith

2012-09-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Jason Resch What do we have that machines don't ? Intelligence, consciousnness, awareness. feelings-- in short, we have life, machines don't Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/11/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. -

Re: Re: Re: Re: What must the perceiver be like?

2012-09-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg You're certainly welcome to your beliefs. OK, I was wrong about forgiving your neighbor, but I don't think that the Koran asks you to love your neighbor. Yes, I've travelled a lot. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/11/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have

Re: Re: victims of faith

2012-09-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stathis Papaioannou All of your instances of the falsity of religion below do not pertain to the Christian relgion except that the Ten Commandments were dictated by God to Moses. Not so, they were carved into two stone tablets. So no mistakes. For a God who create this marvellous universe,

Re: Re: victims of faith

2012-09-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stathis Papaioannou OK I missed the statement about going to heaven if you accept... That is a matter of faith, which not infrequently defies common sense. Is the Big Bang common sensicalk ? Is life ? I don't understand the criterion of your other list. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net

Re: Re: victims of faith

2012-09-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stathis Papaioannou You're comparing apples and oranges. Science and religion are two completely different spheres of being. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/11/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving

Re: Re: Re: If I ever doubt that there is a God,

2012-09-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stathis Papaioannou God is supreme intelligence. Intelligence is autonomous and isn't even created. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/11/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content -

Re: Re: Re: Re: What must the perceiver be like?

2012-09-11 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 10:06:18 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg You're certainly welcome to your beliefs. OK, I was wrong about forgiving your neighbor, but I don't think that the Koran asks you to love your neighbor. Worship Allah and join none with him (in

Did the universe come out of a Turing machine ?

2012-09-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stathis Papaioannou No. Intelligence just is, it's nonphysical like information, and precedes and is necessary for design to happen. That sounds a bit like a Turing machine, not sure. IMHO It's the nothing that the Big Bang out exploded out of. I didn't say that the supreme intelligence was

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What must the perceiver be like?

2012-09-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg OK, yuh got me. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/11/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-11,

Re: victims of faith

2012-09-11 Thread Jason Resch
On Sep 11, 2012, at 8:56 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Jason Resch What do we have that machines don't ? Intelligence, consciousnness, awareness. feelings-- in short, we have life, machines don't Why do you belive no machine can have these properties? Jason Roger

Re: Re: victims of faith

2012-09-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi meekerdb How can you demythify something that actually happened ? Jesus really died on the cross and was resurrected. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/11/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following

Re: victims of faith

2012-09-11 Thread Jason Resch
I had a typo in my previous email. I meant to say that NOT all religions claim certainty. Some teach uncertainty or humbleness in the search for truth. On Sep 11, 2012, at 8:47 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Jason Resch There are some factual errors in the Bible but IMHO

Why machines can't be alive

2012-09-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Jason Resch Does the computer have the asbility to convert entropy into energy ? That's a fundamental requirement for life. And life must be free to do what it wants, which I don't think computers can. The key word here is autonomy. Self-caused, self-determined, meaning a self is also

Re: Re: victims of faith

2012-09-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Jason Resch I can't speak for the jewsw, but Jesus did away with the old jewish laws. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/11/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Jason

Re: The poverty of computers

2012-09-11 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 10 Sep 2012, at 21:14, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: I think God is a white man with a beard is a more intelligent statement than God is truth because its actually saying something, it's something that happens not to be true but at

Re: victims of faith

2012-09-11 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 10 Sep 2012, at 22:02, meekerdb wrote: On 9/10/2012 12:50 PM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: This paper of an evolutionist scientific denounces the mytification of Darwin, the spread of false claims that enhance his figure and even the creation of a physical temple around these myths.

Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

2012-09-11 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 10 Sep 2012, at 21:58, meekerdb wrote: On 9/10/2012 7:57 AM, benjayk wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: To use this argument, you need to postulate that the physical universe exists and is describe by a quantum garden of Eden, that is a infinite quantum pattern, and that *you* are that

Re: Why machines can't be alive

2012-09-11 Thread Jason Resch
On Sep 11, 2012, at 10:03 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Jason Resch Does the computer have the asbility to convert entropy into energy ? That's a fundamental requirement for life. I know of no life form that does this, unless you are viewing them going backwards

Re: Simple proof that our intelligence transcends that of computers

2012-09-11 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 11 Sep 2012, at 12:39, benjayk wrote: Our discussion is going nowhere. You don't see my points and assume I want to attack you (and thus are defensive and not open to my criticism), and I am obviously frustrated by that, which is not conducive to a good discussion. We are not

Re: The self (the amygdala) and the triune brain

2012-09-11 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 11 Sep 2012, at 13:05, Roger Clough wrote: The self (the amygdala) and the triune brain Since neuroscience omits or seems not to feature the most important part of the brain, the self, I've decided to try to locate it. I believe it is the amygdala.

Re: Re: Re: If I ever doubt that there is a God,

2012-09-11 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 9:15:35 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg God encompasses everything, so no overlayer is possible. So does the universe encompass everything. What's the difference? Powerless to change ? God did perform some miracles such as the virgin

Re: Re: victims of faith

2012-09-11 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 10:49:31 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi meekerdb How can you demythify something that actually happened ? Jesus really died on the cross and was resurrected. You do know that there are many historians who question the existence of a historical Jesus.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What must the perceiver be like?

2012-09-11 Thread Craig Weinberg
Hey, I didn't know either until I looked it up just now. I just know that there are good and bad people everywhere, under every form of government and ideology, religion and secular category. On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 10:43:45 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg OK, yuh got

Re: fairness and sustainability

2012-09-11 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 11 Sep 2012, at 13:18, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal That's fine. Although it is a bit out-dated an idea, I conceive of the evil acting in evil people metaphorically as demons. With two horns ? :) Many people reports seeing daemons, and sort of daemons, on different

Re: Reason is and ever ought to be, the slave of passion.

2012-09-11 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 9:33:57 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Jason Resch Faith (trust) and love trump logic every time. If my neighbor has riches, it would be logical to rob him blind. Why 'every time'. Didn't the Native Americans have faith and love in their spiritual

Fwd: Magic: The Gathering is Turing Complete

2012-09-11 Thread meekerdb
YATM (yet another turing machine) :-) Original Message http://www.toothycat.net/~hologram/Turing/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To

Re: The poverty of computers

2012-09-11 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 11:11 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: God = truth Certain statements can fool people into thinking they have made a profound discovery when they have not, they probably work so well because people often want to be fooled, but all they have obtained from

Re: The poverty of computers

2012-09-11 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 11:13 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Science is not a field, but a methodology, or even just a human (or machine) attitude. Why not apply it in theology? It has been, its just that the devout don't like the answers science has come up with. John K Clark

Re: Why machines can't be alive

2012-09-11 Thread Richard Ruquist
The current USA space-based ICBM defense system (on paper) consists of autonomous kill vehicles separately orbiting the earth (10,000 of them). Each KV decides if an *ICBM has launched and they divert from orbit to hit the ICBM before burn-out. Canavan and Teller in vented that system in

Re: victims of faith

2012-09-11 Thread meekerdb
On 9/11/2012 5:58 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 6:54 AM, Roger Cloughrclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi meekerdb Science is science and religion is religion and never the two shall meet. I'm not sure about this Roger. The goal of a true science and true religion, in my opinion,

Re: The sin of NDAA

2012-09-11 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 11 Sep 2012, at 13:20, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal It is ironic that Obama followed Bush policy economically (more spending) and also much like Bush in warfare, although a bit more timidly. Timidly? I read that Obama used more drones than anyone before, and, well I am not

Re: If I ever doubt that there is a God,

2012-09-11 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 11 Sep 2012, at 13:27, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal If I ever doubt that there is a God, the regularity of Newton's physics or the microscopic structure of a snowflake dispels such doubt. These show design. Design cannot be made randomly. So there must be some intelligence

Re: The self (the amygdala) and the triune brain

2012-09-11 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 11 Sep 2012, at 13:33, Alberto G. Corona wrote: The idea of looking for a spatio-temporal location of the mental (or soul) categories in the brain is wrong IHMO, and it is surprising to heart this from you Roger. Brain localization of mental functions is like trying to locate

Re: victims of faith

2012-09-11 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 11 Sep 2012, at 13:54, Roger Clough wrote: Hi meekerdb Science is science and religion is religion and never the two shall meet. Science is a tool. Religion is the goal. I would say. If you separate them, it is like cutting the corpus callosum between the analytical and intuitive

Re: If I ever doubt that there is a God,

2012-09-11 Thread Terren Suydam
Hi Bruno, Maybe it's time to update your fractal zoom links :-) http://vimeo.com/12185093 Here's a couple 3d mandelbulb worlds which no doubt require significantly more than 1K to implement, but purely mathematical nonetheless: https://vimeo.com/18308069 https://vimeo.com/36857924 In general

Re: What must the perceiver be like?

2012-09-11 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 11 Sep 2012, at 14:52, Craig Weinberg wrote: Hi Roger, On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 8:36:47 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg The Creator is not created. So no problem. Why not just say The Universe is not created. So no problem? You are right. God create the universe can be

Re: fight or flight

2012-09-11 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 11 Sep 2012, at 15:04, Craig Weinberg wrote: Hi Roger, No, that is not what the article says: Researchers who have studied a woman with a missing amygdala S.M. suffers from an extremely rare disease that destroyed her amygdala. It's as straightforward as it can be. The idea that the

Re: What must the perceiver be like?

2012-09-11 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 11 Sep 2012, at 15:09, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg But the universe IS created. I believe that Satan wrote the Koran, but not the Bible, for the Bible asks us to love Lovable entities are loved without asking. Asking someone to love someone is giving someone an impossible

Re: The All

2012-09-11 Thread Evgenii Rudnyi
On 09.09.2012 19:45 Stephen P. King said the following: On 9/9/2012 12:27 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 08.09.2012 23:19 Stephen P. King said the following: ... Dear Evgenii, You are asking me to explain to you in English the way the relevant part of your brain generates the particular

Re: Why bad things can happen to anybody, good or bad.

2012-09-11 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 11 Sep 2012, at 15:30, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 9:05 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg All evil and suffering are caused either by men and by natural catastrophe. Men have free will, so they can do evil. Nature must follow the laws of

Re: If I ever doubt that there is a God,

2012-09-11 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 11 Sep 2012, at 15:29, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 10:40 PM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Intelligence is by (my) definition an autonomous function, so over-layers are not only forbidden, they are not needed. But God does have to follow laws he already

Re: victims of faith

2012-09-11 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 11 Sep 2012, at 15:56, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Jason Resch What do we have that machines don't ? Intelligence, consciousnness, awareness. feelings-- in short, we have life, machines don't And what if your daughter did marry that man with an artificial body? How will you behave with

Re: The self (the amygdala) and the triune brain

2012-09-11 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/11/2012 1:25 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 11 Sep 2012, at 13:33, Alberto G. Corona wrote: The idea of looking for a spatio-temporal location of the mental (or soul) categories in the brain is wrong IHMO, and it is surprising to heart this from you Roger. Brain localization of mental

Re: The All

2012-09-11 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/11/2012 2:40 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 09.09.2012 19:45 Stephen P. King said the following: On 9/9/2012 12:27 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 08.09.2012 23:19 Stephen P. King said the following: ... Dear Evgenii, You are asking me to explain to you in English the way the relevant part

Re: fight or flight

2012-09-11 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 2:12:44 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 11 Sep 2012, at 15:04, Craig Weinberg wrote: Hi Roger, No, that is not what the article says: Researchers who have studied a woman with *a missing amygdala* S.M. suffers from an extremely rare disease that

Re: What must the perceiver be like?

2012-09-11 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 2:06:36 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 11 Sep 2012, at 14:52, Craig Weinberg wrote: Hi Roger, On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 8:36:47 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg The Creator is not created. So no problem. Why not just say The

Re: Why bad things can happen to anybody, good or bad.

2012-09-11 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 11 Sep 2012, at 15:30, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 9:05 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg All evil and suffering are caused either by men and by natural

Re: Re: victims of faith

2012-09-11 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 7:50 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Belief in God is a gift from God, you cannot achieve it on your own. OK but have you ever asked yourself why that should be? If God exists then that is the single most important fact about the universe, but why would the

Re: If I ever doubt that there is a God,

2012-09-11 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 1:20:49 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: Look how lawful and rich a very simple program, less than 1K, can define: Statistically, shouldn't we see this simple 1K sequence frequently in nature? I mean precisely. Shouldn't there be hundreds of species of beetle

Re: Re: victims of faith

2012-09-11 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 12:48 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi meekerdb How can you demythify something that actually happened ? Jesus really died on the cross and was resurrected. There's no point arguing with you if you believe things like that. -- Stathis Papaioannou --

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