Yes, Doctor!

2012-10-10 Thread Kim Jones
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9597345/Afterlife-exists-says-top-brain-surgeon.html Comments, theories, reflections welcome. You pays your money and you makes your choice. Kim Jones -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups

Re: Yes, Doctor!

2012-10-10 Thread meekerdb
On 10/9/2012 11:54 PM, Kim Jones wrote: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9597345/Afterlife-exists-says-top-brain-surgeon.html Comments, theories, reflections welcome. You pays your money and you makes your choice. Kim Jones I wouldn't say yes to him. He thinks

Re: Re: On Beauty

2012-10-10 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy Well, one could refer that definition of beauty back to the One, maybe that's what plotinus does. Instead of the many coming out of the one, the one comprises the many. A work of art is a whole of parts, compete. But practically speaking When I see a beautiful

Re: Re: On Beauty

2012-10-10 Thread Alberto G. Corona
The perception of beauty in the body is the result of the evolutionary need to detect people with sucessful traits to meet or mate them. Male face masculine traits, designed for avoiding strokes of other men. http://ilevolucionista.blogspot.com.es/2008/06/evolutionary-design-of-human-face.html

Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-10 Thread Roger Clough
Hi meekerdb 1) If you do not have subjective experience, you are dead. So subjectivity is necessary for evolution. 2) The self cannot be an illusion, for it is the perceiver. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/10/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen

Re: Yes, Doctor!

2012-10-10 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Kim Jones My own opinion is that the world is much stranger than we think it is. NDEs are like UFOs. They don't make any scientific sense, but they are widely experienced and reported. I don't think all of the observers can be crazy. But I am a type P in the mbti, so loose ends don't

Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-10 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal I think that consciousness, intelligence and some measure of free will are necessary and inseparable parts of life itself. consciousness / \

Re: Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-10 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Roger Clough Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/10/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Roger Clough Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-10, 07:31:58 Subject: Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

Re: Re: Experiences are not provable because they are private, personal.

2012-10-10 Thread Roger Clough
ROGER: Hi Bruno Marchal and Stathis, 1. Only entities in spacetime physically exist, and thus can be measured and proven. BRUNO: Too much vague to me. I am OK, and I am not OK, for different reasonable intepretations of what you say here. I doubt something in physics can be proved in

Re: Re: Only you can know if you actually have intelligence

2012-10-10 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stathis Papaioannou You can be tested for intelligence, but the enduring solipsist problem shows that you cannot be tested for consciousness. At least nobody seems to have come up with such a test. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/10/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the

Re: Re: Nature's firewall

2012-10-10 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stathis Papaioannou Only the computation could know that. We can only know our own minds. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/10/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stathis Papaioannou Receiver:

Re: Re: more firewalls

2012-10-10 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Richard Ruquist What makes you think it is false ? Please be specific. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/10/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Richard Ruquist Receiver: everything-list Time:

Re: Re: more firewalls

2012-10-10 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Richard Ruquist Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/10/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Richard Ruquist Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-09, 08:25:10 Subject: Re: more firewalls Hi Roger, What

Re: Re: more firewalls

2012-10-10 Thread Richard Ruquist
Roger, To say that a connection is based on logic is a category error. More specifically, I conjecture that the connection in the brain between the physical brain and the (computational?) mind/monads is based on BEC entanglement. BEC stands for Bose-Einstein Condensate. It has been demonstrated

The Measurement That Would Reveal The Universe As A Computer Simulation

2012-10-10 Thread Richard Ruquist
-- Forwarded message -- From: richard ruquist yann...@yahoo.com Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 9:24 AM Subject: Fw: the physics arXiv blog To: yann...@gmail.com yann...@gmail.com - Forwarded Message - *From:* Technology Review Feed - arXiv blog ho...@arxivblog.com *To:*

Survey of Consciousness Models

2012-10-10 Thread Craig Weinberg
http://s33light.org/post/33296583824 Have a look. Objections? Suggestions? http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mboeqxC0Vl1qe3q3v.jpg http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mboih6q3e11qe3q3v.jpg http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mboik9Wcp91qe3q3v.jpg http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mboihhg9Lp1qe3q3v.jpg

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-10 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: I have no trouble at all saying that zero computers are conscious and that all living people have had conscious experiences. Fine say what you want, but I'll never be able to prove you right and I'll never be able to prove you

Re: Re: more firewalls

2012-10-10 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 8:51:50 AM UTC-4, yanniru wrote: Roger, To say that a connection is based on logic is a category error. More specifically, I conjecture that the connection in the brain between the physical brain and the (computational?) mind/monads is based on BEC

Re: Yes, Doctor!

2012-10-10 Thread Craig Weinberg
NDEs make sense to me in my model. With personal consciousness as a subset of super-personal consciousness, it stands to reason that the personal event of one's own death would or could be a super-signifiying presentation in the native language of one's person (or super-person). Craig -- You

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-10 Thread Bruno Marchal
Hi Craig, and other As I am in very buzy period, which can last some time, I will be short and focus on the main disagreements. Or I will take more time for some posts, or I will break my spelling mistakes' number record. On 09 Oct 2012, at 17:24, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday,

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if rather than is

2012-10-10 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 Oct 2012, at 18:58, Alberto G. Corona wrote: It may be a zombie or not. I can´t know. The same applies to other persons. It may be that the world is made of zombie-actors that try to cheat me, but I have an harcoded belief in the conventional thing. Maybe it is, because otherwise, I

Re: Universe on a Chip

2012-10-10 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 Oct 2012, at 19:03, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, October 9, 2012 11:04:51 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Oct 2012, at 22:38, Craig Weinberg wrote: If the universe were a simulation, would the constant speed of light correspond to the clock speed driving the simulation?

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-10 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 Oct 2012, at 19:07, meekerdb wrote: On 10/9/2012 7:17 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Oct 2012, at 19:35, meekerdb wrote: On 10/8/2012 8:42 AM, John Clark wrote: 2) Intelligent behavior is NOT associated with subjective experience, in which case there is no reason for Evolution

Re: Conjoined Twins

2012-10-10 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 Oct 2012, at 19:27, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, October 9, 2012 10:09:57 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: I think Brittany and Abby are two single individual persons. I do too, but we can see that there is much more behavioral synchronization that we would expect from two

Re: Re: more firewalls

2012-10-10 Thread Richard Ruquist
Craig, I claim that a connection is needed in substance dualism between the substance of the mind and the substance of the brain. That is, if consciousness resides in a BEC in the brain and also in the mind, then the two can become entangled and essentially be copies of each other. So the BEC

The little genius.

2012-10-10 Thread Bruno Marchal
A very sad news is that Eric Vandenbussche died. It is the guy I called here often the little genius, who solved notably the first open problem in my PhD thesis (as you can consult on my url). That was a *very* nice guy, a friend, also, an ally, a support. I miss him greatly. R.I.P.

Re: Yes, Doctor!

2012-10-10 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 10 Oct 2012, at 09:14, meekerdb wrote: On 10/9/2012 11:54 PM, Kim Jones wrote: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9597345/Afterlife-exists-says-top-brain-surgeon.html Comments, theories, reflections welcome. You pays your money and you makes your choice. Kim

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-10 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 10 Oct 2012, at 13:31, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal I think that consciousness, intelligence and some measure of free will are necessary and inseparable parts of life itself. consciousness / \

Re: Only you can know if you actually have intelligence

2012-10-10 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 10 Oct 2012, at 14:23, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stathis Papaioannou You can be tested for intelligence, You can be tested for competence, only. Not for intelligence. Not for consciousness, either. You can test locally for non-intelligence, in front of a repeated mistakes.

Re: The little genius.

2012-10-10 Thread Stephen P. King
On 10/10/2012 1:02 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: A very sad news is that Eric Vandenbussche died. It is the guy I called here often the little genius, who solved notably the first open problem in my PhD thesis (as you can consult on my url). That was a *very* nice guy, a friend, also, an ally,

Re: Re: more firewalls

2012-10-10 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 12:47:47 PM UTC-4, yanniru wrote: Craig, I claim that a connection is needed in substance dualism between the substance of the mind and the substance of the brain. That is, if consciousness resides in a BEC in the brain and also in the mind, then the two

Re: [foar] Re: The real reasons we don’t have AGI yet

2012-10-10 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 Oct 2012, at 20:39, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/9/2012 12:28 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 09 Oct 2012, at 13:22, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/9/2012 2:16 AM, meekerdb wrote: On 10/8/2012 3:49 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: Hi Russell, Question: Why has little if any thought been

Re: Conjoined Twins

2012-10-10 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 12:27:14 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 09 Oct 2012, at 19:27, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, October 9, 2012 10:09:57 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: I think Brittany and Abby are two single individual persons. I do too, but

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if rather than is

2012-10-10 Thread Alberto G. Corona
2012/10/10 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be: On 09 Oct 2012, at 18:58, Alberto G. Corona wrote: It may be a zombie or not. I can´t know. The same applies to other persons. It may be that the world is made of zombie-actors that try to cheat me, but I have an harcoded belief in the

Re: AGI

2012-10-10 Thread Bruno Marchal
John, On 09 Oct 2012, at 22:22, John Mikes wrote: Bruno, examples are not identifiction. I was referring to (your?) lack of detailed description what the universal machine consists of and how it functions (maybe: beyond what we know - ha ha). A comprehensive ID. Your lot of examples

Re: Universe on a Chip

2012-10-10 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 12:14:44 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 09 Oct 2012, at 19:03, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, October 9, 2012 11:04:51 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Oct 2012, at 22:38, Craig Weinberg wrote: If the universe were a simulation, would the

Re: Re: more firewalls

2012-10-10 Thread Richard Ruquist
Craig, The experiencers are the monads and the physical neurons.. I conjure experiencers because I have experiences. But it appears that two kinds of experiencers are necessary. The BEC just connects them. I do not care what you call that. Names are not important. Richard On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at

Re: Re: more firewalls

2012-10-10 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 2:32:40 PM UTC-4, yanniru wrote: Craig, The experiencers are the monads and the physical neurons.. I conjure experiencers because I have experiences. But it appears that two kinds of experiencers are necessary. The BEC just connects them. I do not care

Re: Survey of Consciousness Models

2012-10-10 Thread Evgenii Rudnyi
On 10.10.2012 17:16 Craig Weinberg said the following: http://s33light.org/post/33296583824 Have a look. Objections? Suggestions? I am not sure if vitalism is a model of consciousness. Eliminativism is not Epiphenomenalism. The small difference is that epiphenomenalism assumes mental

Re: Survey of Consciousness Models

2012-10-10 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 3:27:52 PM UTC-4, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 10.10.2012 17:16 Craig Weinberg said the following: http://s33light.org/post/33296583824 Have a look. Objections? Suggestions? I am not sure if vitalism is a model of consciousness. Yeah, this is more

Re: Re: more firewalls

2012-10-10 Thread Richard Ruquist
Craig, Neurons are made in accordance with physical laws. You are confusing string theory with comp which apparently makes everything. String theory monads are made in the big bang by having the excess dimensions of the space of string theory curl up into 1000 planck diameter particles that

Re: Re: more firewalls

2012-10-10 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 3:52:30 PM UTC-4, yanniru wrote: Craig, Neurons are made in accordance with physical laws. You are confusing string theory with comp which apparently makes everything. String theory monads are made in the big bang by having the excess dimensions of

Re: Re: more firewalls

2012-10-10 Thread Richard Ruquist
I disagree with everything you suggest. On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 4:33 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 3:52:30 PM UTC-4, yanniru wrote: Craig, Neurons are made in accordance with physical laws. You are confusing string theory with comp which

Re: The little genius.

2012-10-10 Thread Russell Standish
On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 01:41:51PM -0400, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/10/2012 1:02 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: A very sad news is that Eric Vandenbussche died. It is the guy I called here often the little genius, who solved notably the first open problem in my PhD thesis (as you can

Re: Yes, Doctor!

2012-10-10 Thread Russell Standish
On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 07:12:46PM +0200, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 10 Oct 2012, at 09:14, meekerdb wrote: I wouldn't say yes to him. He thinks your brain doesn't need to function. He might substitute a rock. If your goal is to survive, that might work. If your goal is to complete your

Re: Re: more firewalls

2012-10-10 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 7:46:17 PM UTC-4, yanniru wrote: I disagree with everything you suggest. You are welcome to disagree, but without knowing why, I can only assume that you don't really have an argument against my view. The bottom line is that without some theory which gets us

Re: Re: more firewalls

2012-10-10 Thread Richard Ruquist
The why is that your conception of space is unscientific. You sound like a New Ager. On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 9:34 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 7:46:17 PM UTC-4, yanniru wrote: I disagree with everything you suggest. You are welcome to

Re: The Measurement That Would Reveal The Universe As A Computer Simulation

2012-10-10 Thread Russell Standish
On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 09:27:25AM -0400, Richard Ruquist wrote: The Measurement That Would Reveal The Universe As A Computer Simulation ... First, some background. The problem with all simulations is that the laws of physics, which appear continuous, have to be superimposed onto a

Re: Re: more firewalls

2012-10-10 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 9:37:33 PM UTC-4, yanniru wrote: The why is that your conception of space is unscientific. You sound like a New Ager. Why do you think that my conception of space is unscientific? Saying I sound like a New Ager makes you sound unscientific. On Wed, Oct

Re: Re: more firewalls

2012-10-10 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 9:37:33 PM UTC-4, yanniru wrote: The why is that your conception of space is unscientific. You sound like a New Ager. Also, not to pick a fight or to diminish the work that you are doing (which I respect), but your conception of space is: