Re: Survey of Consciousness Models

2012-10-11 Thread Evgenii Rudnyi
On 10.10.2012 21:45 Craig Weinberg said the following: On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 3:27:52 PM UTC-4, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: ... Then there is Reductive Physicalisms: Mental states are identical to physical states. It is not functionalism though, as everything goes through physical

Confusions of types

2012-10-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Richard Ruquist You keep getting physical strings mixed up with theoretical strings. And then you mix this up with monads. Theoretical strings are not physical and monads are not physical. Period. You'd do better to stick to straight materialism since you seem to have no understranding of

Impossible connections

2012-10-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Richard Ruquist Here you go again. Monads are basically ideas. The BECs are physical. No physical connection is possible between ideas and things. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/11/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following

Re: Conscious robots

2012-10-11 Thread Evgenii Rudnyi
On 26.09.2012 20:35 meekerdb said the following: An interesting paper which comports with my idea that the problem of consciousness will be solved by engineering. Or John Clark's point that consciousness is easy, intelligence is hard. Consciousness in Cognitive Architectures A Principled

The non-existence of spacetime

2012-10-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Richard, Somewhow I seem to have lost my reply to your criticism of my (and Leibniz's) philosophical concept of space. I believe with Einstein that space consists only of relative distances, not absolute ones, and also with him that space and time only exist as spacetime, whose increment

Re: Conscious robots

2012-10-11 Thread Evgenii Rudnyi
On 11.10.2012 11:36 Evgenii Rudnyi said the following: On 26.09.2012 20:35 meekerdb said the following: An interesting paper which comports with my idea that the problem of consciousness will be solved by engineering. Or John Clark's point that consciousness is easy, intelligence is hard.

Re: Re: more firewalls

2012-10-11 Thread Richard Ruquist
Enough On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 10:54 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 9:37:33 PM UTC-4, yanniru wrote: The why is that your conception of space is unscientific. You sound like a New Ager. Why do you think that my conception of space is

Re: Survey of Consciousness Models

2012-10-11 Thread Richard Ruquist
On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 2:59 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi use...@rudnyi.ru wrote: On 10.10.2012 21:45 Craig Weinberg said the following: On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 3:27:52 PM UTC-4, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: ... Then there is Reductive Physicalisms: Mental states are identical to physical states.

Re: Confusions of types

2012-10-11 Thread Richard Ruquist
Roger, And you do not know the difference between a string particle and a CYM monad particle. Let's stop with the insults. Richard On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 5:27 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Richard Ruquist You keep getting physical strings mixed up with theoretical strings.

Re: Impossible connections

2012-10-11 Thread Richard Ruquist
Roger, You are entitled to your opinion, but that is all it is. Richard On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 5:31 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Richard Ruquist Here you go again. Monads are basically ideas. The BECs are physical. No physical connection is possible between ideas and

Re: The non-existence of spacetime

2012-10-11 Thread Richard Ruquist
Roger: So neither space and time nor spacetime physically exist. Richard: That is unscientific. Physics could be entirely wrong. But I will bet on physics being correct and you and Craig being incorrect. But you are entitled to your opinion however absolute you make it sound like. On Thu, Oct

Some light at the end of Solipsism's tunnel.

2012-10-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal There is perhaps some light at the end of Solipsism's tunnel. As a preface, Solipsism can be stated thusly: I cannot directly share my experiences (such as that I exist), but I can share my descriptions of my experiences (thus I stub my toe (stubbing it). 1) You can share

Re: Impossible connections

2012-10-11 Thread Craig Weinberg
I agree with Roger on this one (except for the insults). I did not know that Einstein recognized that spacetime was a true void - I had assumed that his conception of gravitational warping of spacetime was a literal plenum or manifold, but if it's true that he recognized spacetime as an

Re: Impossible connections

2012-10-11 Thread Richard Ruquist
Spacetime could not be warped if it were a void. On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 8:11 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: I agree with Roger on this one (except for the insults). I did not know that Einstein recognized that spacetime was a true void - I had assumed that his conception of

Re: The non-existence of spacetime

2012-10-11 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, October 11, 2012 8:03:15 AM UTC-4, yanniru wrote: Roger: So neither space and time nor spacetime physically exist. Richard: That is unscientific. Physics could be entirely wrong. But I will bet on physics being correct and you and Craig being incorrect. But you are

Re: Universe on a Chip

2012-10-11 Thread ronaldheld
maybe this will help? Constraints on the Universe as a Numerical Simulation arXiv:1210.1847v1 [hep-ph] 4Oct 2012 Ronald On Oct 10, 2:22 pm, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 12:14:44 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 09 Oct 2012, at

All life is conscious because all life has to make decisions.

2012-10-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi guys, All life, especially if there is any decision to be made with multiple choices, must have consciousness to whatever extent to make the best choice. Even if it is instinctual it must know which instinct to carry out. In any encounter, one must choose flight or fight (or eat or mate

Re: The non-existence of spacetime

2012-10-11 Thread Richard Ruquist
Craig, I think Roger has an incorrect interpretation the physics of Leibniz and Einstein. I also think this discussion has reached beyond diminishing returns. I will stick with the conventional definition of space and time. Richard On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 8:18 AM, Craig Weinberg

Re: Re: Only you can know if you actually have intelligence

2012-10-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal I was thinking of, say, a gnat, the intelligence perhaps being yes or no in favor of survival. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/11/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal

can you test the intelligence of an aig ?

2012-10-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal You would have to set up a carefully selected intelligence test to test the intelligence of an AIG. Would it then really have intelligence ? I don't think so. You'd have to cheat with pre-supplied answers. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/11/2012 Forever is a long

Re: Survey of Consciousness Models

2012-10-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg Cool. I just signed up at tumblr previously. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/11/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-10,

Leibniz: How to avoid the need for a firewall

2012-10-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Richard You can't join or operate on the physical with the nonphysical. It's like there's a firewall between them. That's why Leibniz had to go all-nonphysical to correctly describe the brain and mind interaction. Both can be expressed nonphysically but not both physically, unless you're a

Monads, dreams and NDEs

2012-10-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg The NDE is a piece of cake if you realize that in Leibniz's metaphysics, the mind, like everything else, is nonphysical. And everyone's monad survives death, at least in some form. There are some limitations depending on your ability to mentally perceive and there are

Re: The non-existence of spacetime

2012-10-11 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, October 11, 2012 8:26:03 AM UTC-4, yanniru wrote: Craig, I think Roger has an incorrect interpretation the physics of Leibniz and Einstein. I'm not sure. Spacetime can be warped, just as the cost of living can 'rise'. If Einstein understands that spacetime is the

John Doe's monad

2012-10-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg A whole man has a monad called, let's say, John Doe. That's the unchanging identity of his soul= monad. Technically a man's soul is called a spirit by L, but I just use soul to avoid confusion. Within John's monad=soul is a homunculus that has its own homunculus mind that

Re: John Doe's monad

2012-10-11 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, October 11, 2012 9:14:25 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg A whole man has a monad called, let's say, John Doe. In this case I would call 'having a monad', 'being a person' who identifies with the name John Doe (and I would say that the name define or influences

On monads and vitalism

2012-10-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg L speaking here: Every corporeal body without parts in the universe is also a monad. Bodies of more than one part have a monad for each part. Every monad is alive to various degrees, hence various forms of vitalism, and to various degrees have intellect (intelligence),

I think Monads may be the strategy to allow internal changes within Platonia

2012-10-11 Thread Roger Clough
This might be of possible importance with regard to comp. First of all, there are a fixed number of monads in this world, since they cannot be created or destroyed. While, as I understand it, the identities or Souls of monads do not change, they do change internally. This is because their

Re: Re: Impossible connections

2012-10-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Richard Ruquist Only the path is warped. If there's anything in it, it will be accordingly displaced. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/11/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Richard Ruquist

Re: The non-existence of spacetime

2012-10-11 Thread Richard Ruquist
Craig Roger, Here is a possible middle ground. Just like quantum waves may be virtual and not physical, dimensions may be virtual, including the multiple dimensions of string theory. So the particles of compactified dimensions would be virtual and spacetime would be virtual as well. Spacetime

Re: Re: Conscious robots

2012-10-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Evgenii Rudnyi The following components are inextricably mixed: life, consciousness, free will, intelligence you can't have one without the others, and (or because) they're all nonphysical, all subjective. So only the computer can know for sure if it has any of these. Roger Clough,

Re: On monads and vitalism

2012-10-11 Thread Richard Ruquist
Roger, Could you supply a link to where L said all that. Google is unable to find any such place. Richard On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 9:37 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg L speaking here: Every corporeal body without parts in the universe is also a monad. Bodies

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-11 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 10 Oct 2012, at 13:31, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal I think that consciousness, intelligence and some measure of free will are necessary and inseparable parts of life itself.

Re: Re: Impossible connections

2012-10-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Richard, The most entertaining way to understand the views of modern physics on space (same as that of Leibniz) would be to watch NOVA | The Fabric of the Cosmos: What Is Space (Brian Greene, a founder of sgtring theory)

Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi John Clark Free Will-- You need enough freedom to make a choice of your own. Or apparently of your own choice. Strictly speaking, I prefer the term self-determination meaning by anything inside your skin. That's the self. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/11/2012 Forever is a

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if rather than is

2012-10-11 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 10 Oct 2012, at 20:13, Alberto G. Corona wrote: 2012/10/10 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be: On 09 Oct 2012, at 18:58, Alberto G. Corona wrote: It may be a zombie or not. I can´t know. The same applies to other persons. It may be that the world is made of zombie-actors that try to

Re: Re: On monads and vitalism

2012-10-11 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Richard Ruquist He didn't in so many words, you have to study his philosophy. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/11/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Richard Ruquist Receiver: everything-list

Re: Conscious robots

2012-10-11 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Consciousness is easy if you already have consciousness. It is impossible if you don't. But you believe in panexperientialism, you believe that everything is conscious, so if you are correct then consciousness is not only

Re: Universe on a Chip

2012-10-11 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 10 Oct 2012, at 20:22, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, October 10, 2012 12:14:44 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 09 Oct 2012, at 19:03, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, October 9, 2012 11:04:51 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Oct 2012, at 22:38, Craig Weinberg wrote:

Re: Survey of Consciousness Models

2012-10-11 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 10 Oct 2012, at 21:27, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 10.10.2012 17:16 Craig Weinberg said the following: http://s33light.org/post/33296583824 Have a look. Objections? Suggestions? I am not sure if vitalism is a model of consciousness. Eliminativism is not Epiphenomenalism. The small

Re: more firewalls

2012-10-11 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 10 Oct 2012, at 18:47, Richard Ruquist wrote: Craig, I claim that a connection is needed in substance dualism between the substance of the mind and the substance of the brain. That is, if consciousness resides in a BEC in the brain and also in the mind, then the two can become entangled

Re: Survey of Consciousness Models

2012-10-11 Thread Evgenii Rudnyi
On 11.10.2012 17:20 Bruno Marchal said the following: On 10 Oct 2012, at 21:27, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 10.10.2012 17:16 Craig Weinberg said the following: http://s33light.org/post/33296583824 Have a look. Objections? Suggestions? I am not sure if vitalism is a model of consciousness.

Re: Re: Impossible connections

2012-10-11 Thread Richard Ruquist
Roger, I know Brian Greene personally and have read his book, Fabric of the Cosmos. He was a postdoc at my school. He is not a founder of string theory, Max Green is. His view of space is quite conventional except for the extra dimensions of string theory. Richard On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 10:39

Re: more firewalls

2012-10-11 Thread Richard Ruquist
Bruno: BEC are Turing emulable, so you can't get substance dualism, Richard: Please explain why not. On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 10 Oct 2012, at 18:47, Richard Ruquist wrote: Craig, I claim that a connection is needed in substance dualism

Re: The little genius.

2012-10-11 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 11 Oct 2012, at 02:55, Russell Standish wrote: On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 01:41:51PM -0400, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/10/2012 1:02 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: A very sad news is that Eric Vandenbussche died. It is the guy I called here often the little genius, who solved notably the first

Re: The non-existence of spacetime

2012-10-11 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, October 11, 2012 10:09:12 AM UTC-4, yanniru wrote: Craig Roger, Here is a possible middle ground. Just like quantum waves may be virtual and not physical, dimensions may be virtual, including the multiple dimensions of string theory. So the particles of compactified

Re: Impossible connections

2012-10-11 Thread meekerdb
On 10/11/2012 5:17 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote: Spacetime could not be warped if it were a void. Why not? Spacetime is just the set of relations, i.e. intervals, between events. If those intervals satisfy the Minkowski metric the spacetime is flat. If they don't the spacetime is warped.

Re: Impossible connections

2012-10-11 Thread Richard Ruquist
Brent, According to Einstein it takes massive objects to warp spacetime. Therefore a warped spacetime cannot be empty. The apparently flat spacetime that exists is due to dark energy, dark matter and visible matter. Although flat, it is hardly considered to be empty. Richard On Thu, Oct 11,

Re: Universe on a Chip

2012-10-11 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, October 11, 2012 11:08:16 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: The problem is the meanwhile you have this meta-universe which is doing the computing, yes? What does it run on? On the true number relations. Indirectly on some false propositions too, as the meta-arithmetic,

Re: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-11 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Free Will-- You need enough freedom My difficulty with the free will noise is not the will part, you want to do some things and don't want to do others and that's clear, my difficulty is with the free part; and all you're saying

Re: Impossible connections

2012-10-11 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, October 11, 2012 12:41:29 PM UTC-4, yanniru wrote: Brent, According to Einstein it takes massive objects to warp spacetime. Therefore a warped spacetime cannot be empty. Sure it can. What is mass? A relation between objects. Relativity shows us nothing if not that. Earth

Re: Impossible connections

2012-10-11 Thread meekerdb
On 10/11/2012 9:41 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote: Brent, According to Einstein it takes massive objects to warp spacetime. No, that's wrong. Mass-energy warps spacetime, but the Einstein equations have non-flat solutions with a zero stress-energy tensor. DeSitter showed this shortly after

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-11 Thread meekerdb
On 10/11/2012 10:14 AM, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net mailto:rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Free Will-- You need enough freedom My difficulty with the free will noise is not the will part, you want to do some things and don't want to do others

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if rather than is

2012-10-11 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 5:50 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Comp seems to avoid this insurmountable problem by avoiding the issue of whether the computer actually had an experience, only that it appeared to have an experience. So comp's requirement is as if rather than is. In

Re: Impossible connections

2012-10-11 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, October 11, 2012 1:23:48 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: Nobody said it was empty. I was just correcting your misconception that spacetime had to be flat in the absence of matter. I'm saying that it is beyond empty. It is only the inferred distance between which objects define

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-11 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 1:28 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: It's [free will] a simple enough concept I think that's true, although I may be using a somewhat different meaning of the word simple than you are. that it is used in law courts True. a venue not noted for

Re: Re: Conscious robots

2012-10-11 Thread Russell Standish
On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 10:13:06AM -0400, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Evgenii Rudnyi The following components are inextricably mixed: life, consciousness, free will, intelligence you can't have one without the others, I disagree. You can have life without any of the others. Also, I suspect

Continuous Game of Life

2012-10-11 Thread Jason Resch
http://www.jwz.org/blog/2012/10/smoothlifel/ Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-11 Thread meekerdb
On 10/11/2012 1:14 PM, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 1:28 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: It's [free will] a simple enough concept I think that's true, although I may be using a somewhat different meaning of the word simple than you are.

Re: Continuous Game of Life

2012-10-11 Thread Russell Standish
That's serious cool! I love the comment posted Stephen Wolfram is very angry! They do discrete time (Euler integration), but one could easily make it continuous by replacing it with a Runge-Kutta integration scheme. Thanks for posting this. On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 04:14:15PM -0500, Jason Resch

Re: Conscious robots

2012-10-11 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, October 11, 2012 11:05:23 AM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript:wrote: Consciousness is easy if you already have consciousness. It is impossible if you don't. But you believe in panexperientialism, you believe that