Re: Conscious robots

2012-10-13 Thread Evgenii Rudnyi
On 12.10.2012 22:54 Russell Standish said the following: On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 08:23:33AM -0400, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Russell Standish Life cannot survive without making choices, like where to go next. To avoid an enemy. To get food. This act of life obviously requires an autonomous

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-13 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 12 Oct 2012, at 22:36, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Keep in mind that I use the compatibilist definition of free will, which is the (machine) ability to exploits its self-indetermination (with indetermination in the Turing sense, (not in

Re: Creativity

2012-10-13 Thread John Mikes
Why shouldn't they? JM On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 5:59 PM, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: John, Your model may explain why some drugs improve creativity. Richard On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 4:52 PM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: On 09/10/2012, at 8:39 AM, Russell Standish wrote:

Cause and sufficient reason.

2012-10-13 Thread Roger Clough
Hi John Clark Another way to express the sufficient reason argument is to say that whatever happened was caused to happen. You don't have to know what the cause was, or even if that cause had a reason. All you are saying is that something caused this to happen. Something caused this, whatever

Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment

2012-10-13 Thread John Clark
On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Keep in mind that I use the compatibilist definition of free will, which is the (machine) ability to exploits its self-indetermination (with indetermination in the Turing sense, (not in the comp first person sense, nor the quantum

Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if rather thanis

2012-10-13 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 8:12 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: if you could tell me how to determine if a computer has intelligence The same way I determine if one of my fellow human beings is intelligent, if he beats me at a intellectual task then he's intelligent, in fact he's

Re: Re: Re: Re: Conscious robots

2012-10-13 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Russell Standish I should stay away from discussing bacteria. Brownian motion and chemical actions could in fact make intelligence (free choice-making) unnecessary, as you may have suggested. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/13/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end.

Re: Re: Conscious robots

2012-10-13 Thread Roger Clough
Hi meekerdb That's exactly the point. Intelligence can't be intelligent if it's defined. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/13/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: meekerdb Receiver: everything-list

Re: Yes, Doctor!

2012-10-13 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 , Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: NDEs are like UFOs. Yes they're both bullshit. The trouble with UFOs is that people forget what the U stands for and keep identifying the damn thing as a flying saucer from another planet; I see a light in the sky and I don't know

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-13 Thread Roger Clough
Hi John Clark snip ROGER: if you could tell me how to determine if a computer has intelligence JOHN: The same way I determine if one of my fellow human beings is intelligent, if he beats me at a intellectual task then he's intelligent, in fact he's more intelligent than I am at

Re: Re: Yes, Doctor!

2012-10-13 Thread Roger Clough
Hi John Clark This is supposed to be a scientific discussion. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/13/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: John Clark Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-13, 12:50:23

Re: Re: Yes, Doctor!

2012-10-13 Thread John Clark
On Sat, Oct 13, 2012Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: This is supposed to be a scientific discussion. Yes, so why are you talking about NDEs and UFOs? If I was interested in that crap I wouldn't read a scientific journal or go to the Everything List, I'd just pick up a copy of the

Re: Continuous Game of Life

2012-10-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, October 12, 2012 10:23:57 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 12 Oct 2012, at 14:50, Craig Weinberg wrote: They are certainly cool looking and biomorphic. The question I have is, at what point do they begin to have experiences...or do you think that those blobs have

Re: Continuous Game of Life

2012-10-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, October 12, 2012 4:42:56 PM UTC-4, Russell Standish wrote: On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 05:50:11AM -0700, Craig Weinberg wrote: They are certainly cool looking and biomorphic. The question I have is, at what point do they begin to have experiences...or do you think that those

My First Televised Interview

2012-10-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
Well, local community TV anyways. Jose is a great host, producer, and editor though. Consciousness, Materialist Zombies and Multisense Realism http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv8KrsRnx44 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-13 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 4:15 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: ROGER: But if a computer beats you at an intelligent task, it would have to be programmed to do so. which means that its intelligence would be that of the programmer. This is always the case. Computers cannot

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, October 13, 2012 6:59:50 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 4:15 AM, Roger Clough rcl...@verizon.netjavascript: wrote: ROGER: But if a computer beats you at an intelligent task, it would have to be programmed to do so. which means that its

Re: Re: Re: Re: Conscious robots

2012-10-13 Thread Russell Standish
On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 12:27:01PM -0400, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Russell Standish I should stay away from discussing bacteria. Brownian motion and chemical actions could in fact make intelligence (free choice-making) unnecessary, as you may have suggested. Why avoid the topic? By

Re: Conscious robots

2012-10-13 Thread Russell Standish
On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 12:16:06PM +0200, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: Another question here would be who will divide the state space to a bacterium and environment. Let us imagine that we have implemented somehow a bacterium in Game of Life (or even better in Continuous Game of Life). What is

Re: Continuous Game of Life

2012-10-13 Thread Russell Standish
On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 02:11:59PM -0700, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, October 12, 2012 4:42:56 PM UTC-4, Russell Standish wrote: Assuming this system exhibits universality like the original GoL, and assuming COMP, then some patterns will exhibit consciousness. However, the

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-13 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 10:16 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: But if a human beats you at an intelligent task he would have been programmed to do so - by evolution, by parents, teachers and various other aspects of the environment. So the intelligence of the human is really

Re: Continuous Game of Life

2012-10-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, October 13, 2012 7:41:10 PM UTC-4, Russell Standish wrote: On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 02:11:59PM -0700, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, October 12, 2012 4:42:56 PM UTC-4, Russell Standish wrote: Assuming this system exhibits universality like the original GoL, and

Re: Continuous Game of Life

2012-10-13 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 10:51 AM, Russell Standish li...@hpcoders.com.au wrote: I know you don't believe in COMP, but assuming COMP (I am open-minded on the topic), mass and chemical composition are irrelevant to consciousness. Chalmers' fading qualia argument purports to prove the

Re: Continuous Game of Life

2012-10-13 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 10:51 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Since we know that our consciousness is exquisitely sensitive to particular masses of specific chemicals, yet relatively tolerant of other kinds of chemical changes, it suggests that we should strongly suspect that

Re: Yes, Doctor!

2012-10-13 Thread Kim Jones
MMmf Maybe it's time for your afternoon nap, John? Kim Jones On 14/10/2012, at 4:40 AM, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Oct 13, 2012Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: This is supposed to be a scientific discussion. Yes, so why are you talking about NDEs and UFOs? If I

Re: Continuous Game of Life

2012-10-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, October 13, 2012 7:54:44 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 10:51 AM, Russell Standish li...@hpcoders.com.au javascript: wrote: I know you don't believe in COMP, but assuming COMP (I am open-minded on the topic), mass and chemical composition are irrelevant

Re: Continuous Game of Life

2012-10-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, October 13, 2012 8:05:26 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 10:51 AM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: Since we know that our consciousness is exquisitely sensitive to particular masses of specific chemicals, yet relatively tolerant

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, October 13, 2012 7:49:03 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 10:16 AM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: But if a human beats you at an intelligent task he would have been programmed to do so - by evolution, by parents, teachers and

Re: Continuous Game of Life

2012-10-13 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Fading qualia is the only argument of Chalmers' that I disagree with. It's a natural mistake to make, but I think he goes wrong by assuming a priori that consciousness is functional, i.e. that personal consciousness

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-13 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 11:33 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Two identical computers with identical programs taking environmental input from sensors only millimetres apart could produce radically different outputs. For example, the environmental input could be the least

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, October 13, 2012 9:24:15 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 11:33 AM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: Two identical computers with identical programs taking environmental input from sensors only millimetres apart could produce

Re: Continuous Game of Life

2012-10-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, October 13, 2012 9:05:58 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: Fading qualia is the only argument of Chalmers' that I disagree with. It's a natural mistake to make, but I think he goes wrong by

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

2012-10-13 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, the Big Bang is a program. There are initial conditions and rules that lead deterministically to the unfolding of the entire multiverse and all its rich content. All of science is an effort to work out details

Re: Continuous Game of Life

2012-10-13 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 2:59 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: No, he does NOT assume this. He assumes the opposite: that consciousness is a property of the brain and CANNOT be reproduced by reproducing the behaviour in another substrate. I'm not talking about what the