Re: Interactions between mind and brain

2012-10-23 Thread meekerdb
On 10/22/2012 11:35 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/22/2012 6:05 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: I don't understand why you're focusing on NP-hard problems... NP-hard problems are solvable algorithmically... but not efficiently. When I read you (I'm surely misinterpreting), it seems like you're

Re: Interactions between mind and brain

2012-10-23 Thread Stephen P. King
On 10/23/2012 2:03 AM, meekerdb wrote: On 10/22/2012 11:35 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/22/2012 6:05 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: I don't understand why you're focusing on NP-hard problems... NP-hard problems are solvable algorithmically... but not efficiently. When I read you (I'm surely

Kant's Refutation of (Problematic) Idealism

2012-10-23 Thread Roger Clough
Kant's Refutation of (Problematic) Idealism Problematic Idealism (Berkeley's idealism, not that of Leibniz) is the thesis that we cannot prove that objects outside us exist. This results directly from Descartes' proposition that the only thing I cannot doubt is that I exist (solipsism). If

wave function collapse

2012-10-23 Thread Roger Clough
Hi meekerdb There are a number of theories to explain the collapse of the quantum wave function (see below). 1) In subjective theories, the collapse is attributed to consciousness (presumably of the intent or decision to make a measurement). 2) In objective or decoherence theories, some

Re: Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-23 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal SNIP ROGER: OK, but computers can't experience anything, it would be simulated experience. Not arbitrarily available. But that's what the brain does, simulate experience from the point of view of the owner or liver of the experience. According to some theory. You

Re: Re: The circular logic of Dennett and other materialists

2012-10-23 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal Numbers and calculations are not subjective, for they are mindless. Which means they can't experience anything. They're dead in the water. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/23/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the

Can you think of an experiment to verify comp ?

2012-10-23 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal Nothing is true, even comp, until it is proven by experiment. Can you think of an experiment to verify comp ? Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/23/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From:

Re: Re: Interactions between mind and brain

2012-10-23 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King I saw a paper once on the possibility of the universe inventing itself as it goes along. I forget the result or why, but it had to do with the amount of information in the universe, the amount needed to do such a calc, etc. Is some limnit exceeded ? Roger Clough,

Re: Continuous Game of Life

2012-10-23 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 22 Oct 2012, at 18:26, meekerdb wrote: On 10/22/2012 12:51 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2012/10/22 Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 12:46 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: I stopped

Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-23 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 22 Oct 2012, at 18:49, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, October 22, 2012 12:28:41 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: But that's what the brain does, simulate experience from the point of view of the owner or liver of the experience. According to some theory. You can't talk like if you knew

Re: One more nail in comp's coffin.

2012-10-23 Thread Jason Resch
On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 8:50 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Bruno, My own subjectivity is 1p. I don't believe a computer can have consciousness, but suppose we let the computer have consciousness as well. Let a descriptor be 3p. Let my consciousness = 1p But the

computers, materialism and subjective/objective dyslexia

2012-10-23 Thread Roger Clough
Computers, materialism and subjective/objective dyslexia In materialism there is no self, it is implied. This works in most cases, except if the case involves the self or subjectivity. The problem with that situation is that, without a self to be subjective, there can be no subjectivity. Hence

Re: A test for solipsism

2012-10-23 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 22 Oct 2012, at 21:13, Alberto G. Corona wrote: C3PO would be a phylosophical zombie. It would not? If you assume non-comp, or just non-strong AI. Bruno 2012/10/22 Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net On 10/22/2012 3:12 AM, Roger Clough wrote: SNIP Hi Bruno and Roger, What

Re: Can you think of an experiment to verify comp ?

2012-10-23 Thread smitra
Bruno was born 100 years too late, he would have predicted quantum mechanics. Saibal Citeren Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net: Hi Bruno Marchal Nothing is true, even comp, until it is proven by experiment. Can you think of an experiment to verify comp ? Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net

Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-23 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, October 23, 2012 10:15:15 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 22 Oct 2012, at 18:49, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, October 22, 2012 12:28:41 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: But that's what the brain does, simulate experience from the point of view of the owner or liver

Re: Interactions between mind and brain

2012-10-23 Thread meekerdb
On 10/23/2012 3:40 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/23/2012 2:03 AM, meekerdb wrote: On 10/22/2012 11:35 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/22/2012 6:05 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: I don't understand why you're focusing on NP-hard problems... NP-hard problems are solvable algorithmically... but

Re: Interactions between mind and brain

2012-10-23 Thread Stephen P. King
On 10/23/2012 9:43 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King I saw a paper once on the possibility of the universe inventing itself as it goes along. I forget the result or why, but it had to do with the amount of information in the universe, the amount needed to do such a calc, etc. Is some

Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-23 Thread Stephen P. King
On 10/23/2012 10:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 22 Oct 2012, at 18:49, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, October 22, 2012 12:28:41 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: But that's what the brain does, simulate experience from the point of view of the owner or liver of the experience.

Re: Solipsism = 1p

2012-10-23 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, October 23, 2012 2:21:30 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 10/23/2012 10:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 22 Oct 2012, at 18:49, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, October 22, 2012 12:28:41 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: But that's what the brain does, simulate

Re: Interactions between mind and brain

2012-10-23 Thread John Mikes
Hi, Stephen, you wrote some points in accordance with my thinking (whatever that is worth) with one point I disagree with: if you want to argue a point, do not accept it as a base for your argument (even negatively not). You do that all the time. (SPK? etc.) - My fundamental question: what do you

Re: Kant's Refutation of (Problematic) Idealism

2012-10-23 Thread Russell Standish
I have not met this argument before. I have comments interspersed. On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 08:04:35AM -0400, Roger Clough wrote: Kant's Refutation of (Problematic) Idealism Problematic Idealism (Berkeley's idealism, not that of Leibniz) is the thesis that we cannot prove that objects

Re: Kant's Refutation of (Problematic) Idealism

2012-10-23 Thread meekerdb
On 10/23/2012 2:39 PM, Russell Standish wrote: I have not met this argument before. I have comments interspersed. On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 08:04:35AM -0400, Roger Clough wrote: Kant's Refutation of (Problematic) Idealism Problematic Idealism (Berkeley's idealism, not that of Leibniz) is the

Re: Kant's Refutation of (Problematic) Idealism

2012-10-23 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 11:04 PM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Kant's Refutation of (Problematic) Idealism Problematic Idealism (Berkeley's idealism, not that of Leibniz) is the thesis that we cannot prove that objects outside us exist. This results directly from Descartes'

Re: Kant's Refutation of (Problematic) Idealism

2012-10-23 Thread Russell Standish
On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 02:47:12PM -0700, meekerdb wrote: On 10/23/2012 2:39 PM, Russell Standish wrote: 2) can be aware of having experiences that occur in a specific temporal order only if I perceive something permanent by reference to which I can determine their

Re: Interactions between mind and brain

2012-10-23 Thread Stephen P. King
On 10/23/2012 1:29 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 10/23/2012 3:40 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/23/2012 2:03 AM, meekerdb wrote: On 10/22/2012 11:35 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/22/2012 6:05 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: I don't understand why you're focusing on NP-hard problems... NP-hard

Re: Kant's Refutation of (Problematic) Idealism

2012-10-23 Thread meekerdb
On 10/23/2012 3:20 PM, Russell Standish wrote: On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 02:47:12PM -0700, meekerdb wrote: On 10/23/2012 2:39 PM, Russell Standish wrote: 2) can be aware of having experiences that occur in a specific temporal order only if I perceive something permanent by reference

Re: Interactions between mind and brain

2012-10-23 Thread meekerdb
On 10/23/2012 3:35 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/23/2012 1:29 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 10/23/2012 3:40 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/23/2012 2:03 AM, meekerdb wrote: On 10/22/2012 11:35 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/22/2012 6:05 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: I don't understand why

Re: Interactions between mind and brain

2012-10-23 Thread Stephen P. King
On 10/23/2012 4:53 PM, John Mikes wrote: Hi, Stephen, you wrote some points in accordance with my thinking (whatever that is worth) with one point I disagree with: if you want to argue a point, do not accept it as a base for your argument (even negatively not). You do that all the time. (SPK?

Re: Kant's Refutation of (Problematic) Idealism

2012-10-23 Thread Stephen P. King
On 10/23/2012 5:47 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 10/23/2012 2:39 PM, Russell Standish wrote: I have not met this argument before. I have comments interspersed. On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 08:04:35AM -0400, Roger Clough wrote: Kant's Refutation of (Problematic) Idealism Problematic Idealism (Berkeley's

Re: wave function collapse

2012-10-23 Thread meekerdb
On 10/23/2012 5:50 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi meekerdb There are a number of theories to explain the collapse of the quantum wave function (see below). 1) In subjective theories, the collapse is attributed to consciousness (presumably of the intent or decision to make a measurement). There

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-10-23 Thread Max Gron
On Sunday, November 28, 2010 5:19:08 AM UTC+10:30, Rex Allen wrote: On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 7:40 PM, Jason Resch jason...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 3:38 PM, Rex Allen rexall...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: But I also deny that mechanism can account for

Re: Interactions between mind and brain

2012-10-23 Thread Stephen P. King
On 10/23/2012 7:16 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 10/23/2012 3:35 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/23/2012 1:29 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 10/23/2012 3:40 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: snip But you wrote, Both require the prior existence of a solution to a NP-Hard problem. An existence that is

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-10-23 Thread meekerdb
On 10/23/2012 6:33 PM, Max Gron wrote: On Sunday, November 28, 2010 5:19:08 AM UTC+10:30, Rex Allen wrote: On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 7:40 PM, Jason Resch jason...@gmail.com javascript: wrote: On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 3:38 PM, Rex Allen rexall...@gmail.com javascript: wrote: