### Re: What If A Zombie Is What You Need?

On 10/24/2012 10:48 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, October 25, 2012 1:29:24 AM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/24/2012 10:19 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, October 25, 2012 1:10:24 AM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/24/2012 9:23 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:

### Re: What If A Zombie Is What You Need?

On 10/25/2012 2:01 AM, meekerdb wrote: To me, there is no chalkboard world. It's all dusty and flat. Not much sexy going on, except maybe for beaten erasers. To you maybe, but what about the chalk-people's qualia. Brent Good question! We can ask the same question of mathematical

### Re: A test for solipsism

On 22 Oct 2012, at 22:55, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/22/2012 4:12 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/22/2012 3:13 PM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: C3PO would be a phylosophical zombie. It would not? Hi Alberto, C3PO did refer to itself (in the Star Wars movies) , so no, it would not

### Re: One more nail in comp's coffin.

On 22 Oct 2012, at 15:50, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno, My own subjectivity is 1p. OK. By definition. I don't believe a computer can have consciousness, but suppose we let the computer have consciousness as well. OK. Although it can only be a manner of speaking. If by computer you

### Can comp simulate an experience ? What does that require ?

In order for a computer or comp to simulate an experience it must be able to generate qualia. That is the plural of qua穕e/'kw鋖e/ Noun: A quality or property as perceived or experienced by a person. So comp must not just simulate an event, it must simulate the qualia of an event. The

### Re: Strings are not in space-time, they are on space-time

Stephan, Since yesterday it occurred to me that you may be thinking of the 10 or more dimensions of string theory as being orthogonal because they were so before the big bang. But the dimensions that curled-up/compactified went out of orthogonality during the big bang according to Cumrun Vafa.

### Dennett and others on qualia

Dennett and others on qualia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia#Daniel_Dennett 1) Schroedinger on qualia. Examples of qualia are the pain of a headache, the taste of wine, the experience of taking a recreational drug, or the perceived redness of an evening sky. Daniel Dennett writes that

### Re: Strings are not in space-time, they are on space-time

On 10/25/2012 7:58 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote: Stephan, Since yesterday it occurred to me that you may be thinking of the 10 or more dimensions of string theory as being orthogonal because they were so before the big bang. But the dimensions that curled-up/compactified went out of orthogonality

### Re: Predictive physiological anticipation preceding seemingly unpredictable stimuli: a meta-analysis

On 24 Oct 2012, at 19:25, Alberto G. Corona wrote: 2012/10/24 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 24 Oct 2012, at 14:31, Stephen P. King wrote: http://www.frontiersin.org/Perception_Science/10.3389/fpsyg.2012.00390/abstract Comments? If verified it might confirms Helmholtz intuition

### Re: Dennett and others on qualia

I agree. is there something that can be perceived that is not qualia? It´s less qualia the shape and location of a circle in ha sheet of paper than its color?.The fact that the position and radius of the circle can be measured and communicated does not change the fact that they produce a

### Re: Predictive physiological anticipation preceding seemingly unpredictable stimuli: a meta-analysis

On 24 Oct 2012, at 19:31, Alberto G. Corona wrote: I dont believe that such genuine anticipation is possible, for a simple reason: If for quantum or relativistic means the mind or the brain could genuinely anticipate anything, this would be such a huge advantage, that this hability would

### Re: wave function collapse

On 24 Oct 2012, at 19:53, meekerdb wrote: On 10/24/2012 4:31 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 Oct 2012, at 14:50, Roger Clough wrote: Hi meekerdb There are a number of theories to explain the collapse of the quantum wave function (see below). 1) In subjective theories, the collapse is

### Re: Can you think of an experiment to verify comp ?

On 24 Oct 2012, at 20:17, meekerdb wrote: On 10/24/2012 4:51 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 Oct 2012, at 15:35, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal Nothing is true, even comp, until it is proven by experiment. Then your own consciousness is false, which I doubt. But I do experience

### Re: Interactions between mind and brain

On 24 Oct 2012, at 20:29, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/24/2012 10:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 24 Oct 2012, at 06:03, Stephen P. King wrote: What difference does what they refer to matter? Eventually there has to be some physical process or we would be incapable of even thinking

### Re: Against Mechanism

On 24 Oct 2012, at 20:51, meekerdb wrote: On 10/24/2012 7:56 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, October 24, 2012 12:21:23 AM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/23/2012 6:33 PM, Max Gron wrote: On Sunday, November 28, 2010 5:19:08 AM UTC+10:30, Rex Allen wrote: On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 7:40

### Re: Code length = probability distribution

On 24 Oct 2012, at 20:58, Alberto G. Corona wrote: 2012/10/23 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 22 Oct 2012, at 21:50, Alberto G. Corona wrote: 2012/10/22 Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net On 10/22/2012 2:38 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: 2012/10/22 Russell Standish

### Re: What If A Zombie Is What You Need?

On Thursday, October 25, 2012 2:01:44 AM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/24/2012 10:48 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, October 25, 2012 1:29:24 AM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/24/2012 10:19 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, October 25, 2012 1:10:24 AM UTC-4, Brent wrote:

### Re: Code length = probability distribution

On 24 Oct 2012, at 22:20, meekerdb wrote: On 10/24/2012 11:58 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: 2012/10/23 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 22 Oct 2012, at 21:50, Alberto G. Corona wrote: 2012/10/22 Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net On 10/22/2012 2:38 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:

### Re: Against Mechanism

On 25 Oct 2012, at 02:41, Jason Resch wrote: On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 9:56 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: On Wednesday, October 24, 2012 12:21:23 AM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/23/2012 6:33 PM, Max Gron wrote: On Sunday, November 28, 2010 5:19:08 AM UTC+10:30, Rex Allen

### Re: Continuous Game of Life

On 25 Oct 2012, at 02:56, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 10:45 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 21 Oct 2012, at 18:42, Jason Resch wrote: On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 8:56 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Hi John, On 20 Oct 2012, at 23:16, John Mikes

### Re: Continuous Game of Life

On 25 Oct 2012, at 03:27, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 11:04 AM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 6:25 PM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote I think you are missing something. It is a problem that I noticed after watching the movie

### Re: Strings are not in space-time, they are on space-time

On 10/25/2012 4:58 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote: Stephan, Since yesterday it occurred to me that you may be thinking of the 10 or more dimensions of string theory as being orthogonal because they were so before the big bang. But the dimensions that curled-up/compactified went out of orthogonality

### Re: Predictive physiological anticipation preceding seemingly unpredictable stimuli: a meta-analysis

But I don not mean such kind of anticipation. such anticipation by gathering information and computation is a fundamental activity of living beings. I refer to adivination. I suppose that a definition of adivination is the anticipation of something for which we have no conscious or unconscious

### Re: What If A Zombie Is What You Need?

On 25 Oct 2012, at 03:59, Craig Weinberg wrote: If we turn the Fading Qualia argument around, what we get is a world in which Comp is true and it is impossible to simulate cellular activity without evoking the presumed associated experience. If we wanted to test a new painkiller for

### Re: Against Mechanism

On 25 Oct 2012, at 04:21, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, October 24, 2012 10:09:16 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/24/2012 6:39 PM, Jason Resch wrote: Note that I too agree with that bit about the interpreter of information being needed for information to have any objective

### Re: Strings are not in space-time, they are on space-time

Stephan, But you said that you liked my paper which was about how consciousness might arise from the Compact Manifolds if they are enumerable as astronomical observations suggest. Richard. On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 9:06 AM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net wrote: On 10/25/2012 7:58 AM,

### Re: Dennett and others on qualia

On 10/25/2012 5:17 AM, Roger Clough wrote: 2) Dennett on qualia In Consciousness Explained (1991) and Quining Qualia (1988),[19] Daniel Dennett offers an argument against qualia that attempts to show that the above definition breaks down when one tries to make a practical application of it.

### Re: wave function collapse

Bruno, Doesn't the Gleason Theorem negate MWI by assigning probabilities? Richard On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 9:38 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 24 Oct 2012, at 19:53, meekerdb wrote: On 10/24/2012 4:31 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 Oct 2012, at 14:50, Roger Clough wrote:

### Re: wave function collapse

On 24 Oct 2012, at 17:50, Richard Ruquist wrote: As a first step below is Cramer's argument. But I might add that MWI does not seem natural to me at all. Alas I have to invoke god and or teleology to negate it. TIQM seems to invoke teleology. Here for your convenience are the key sentences

### Re: Dennett and others on qualia

Good points. The contrast is usually qualia-v-quanta. I think color can be communicated and we have an RGB language for doing so that makes it more quanta than qualia. So extending your point to Schrodinger, if you're a wine connoisseur you have a language for communicating the taste of wine.

### Re: Predictive physiological anticipation preceding seemingly unpredictable stimuli: a meta-analysis

On 10/25/2012 9:25 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 24 Oct 2012, at 19:31, Alberto G. Corona wrote: I dont believe that such genuine anticipation is possible, for a simple reason: If for quantum or relativistic means the mind or the brain could genuinely anticipate anything, this would be such a

### Re: Code length = probability distribution

On 10/25/2012 11:13 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: If you're going to explain purpose, meaning, qualia, thoughts,...you need to start from something simpler that does not assume those things. Bruno proposes to explain matter as well, so he has to start without matter. Actually I deduce the

### Re: Against Mechanism

On 10/25/2012 7:40 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 24 Oct 2012, at 20:51, meekerdb wrote: On 10/24/2012 7:56 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, October 24, 2012 12:21:23 AM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/23/2012 6:33 PM, Max Gron wrote: On Sunday, November 28, 2010 5:19:08 AM

### Re: Predictive physiological anticipation preceding seemingly unpredictable stimuli: a meta-analysis

On 10/25/2012 11:55 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: But I don not mean such kind of anticipation. such anticipation by gathering information and computation is a fundamental activity of living beings. I refer to adivination. I suppose that a definition of adivination is the anticipation of

### Re: Compact dimensions and orthogonality

On 10/25/2012 11:52 AM, meekerdb wrote: On 10/25/2012 4:58 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote: Stephan, Since yesterday it occurred to me that you may be thinking of the 10 or more dimensions of string theory as being orthogonal because they were so before the big bang. But the dimensions that

### Re: Compact dimensions and orthogonality

On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 1:43 PM, Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net wrote: On 10/25/2012 11:52 AM, meekerdb wrote: On 10/25/2012 4:58 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote: Stephan, Since yesterday it occurred to me that you may be thinking of the 10 or more dimensions of string theory as being

### Re: Code length = probability distribution

On 10/25/2012 8:13 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 24 Oct 2012, at 22:20, meekerdb wrote: On 10/24/2012 11:58 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: 2012/10/23 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be On 22 Oct 2012, at 21:50, Alberto G. Corona wrote: 2012/10/22 Stephen P.

### Re: What If A Zombie Is What You Need?

On 10/25/2012 12:05 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Oct 2012, at 03:59, Craig Weinberg wrote: If we turn the Fading Qualia argument around, what we get is a world in which Comp is true and it is impossible to simulate cellular activity without evoking the presumed associated experience. If

### Re: Strings are not in space-time, they are on space-time

On 10/25/2012 12:31 PM, Richard Ruquist wrote: Stephan, But you said that you liked my paper which was about how consciousness might arise from the Compact Manifolds if they are enumerable as astronomical observations suggest. Richard. Hi Richard, Yes, I did say that and I still do. In

### Re: Strings are not in space-time, they are on space-time

Actually all string theories are based on an n dimensional manifold where n may be anywhere from 9 to 26 or more dimensions plus the assumption that all the dimensions but 3 compactify. I even think of time as a compactified dimension. Not sure if that's consistent with Relativity. Theories that

### Re: Compact dimensions and orthogonality

On 10/25/2012 10:49 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote: On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 1:43 PM, Stephen P. Kingstephe...@charter.net wrote: On 10/25/2012 11:52 AM, meekerdb wrote: On 10/25/2012 4:58 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote: Stephan, Since yesterday it occurred to me that you may be thinking of the 10 or

### Re: Compact dimensions and orthogonality

On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 2:23 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 10/25/2012 10:49 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote: On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 1:43 PM, Stephen P. Kingstephe...@charter.net wrote: On 10/25/2012 11:52 AM, meekerdb wrote: On 10/25/2012 4:58 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote: Stephan,

### Re: Continuous Game of Life

On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 11:15 AM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 9:27 PM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: You will be placed into a room with an exact clone of yourself and you will be given a gun. If you shoot your clone you can leave that room and

### Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of as if ratherthanis

On Thursday, October 25, 2012 2:33:58 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 6:20 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: Accumulating wealth is hardly an achievement of human progress. Wealth and human progress are strongly linked and only in very

### Re: Compact dimensions and orthogonality

On 10/25/2012 11:47 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote: On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 2:23 PM, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 10/25/2012 10:49 AM, Richard Ruquist wrote: On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 1:43 PM, Stephen P. Kingstephe...@charter.net wrote: On 10/25/2012 11:52 AM, meekerdb wrote: On

### Re: Dennett and others on qualia

On Thursday, October 25, 2012 12:57:34 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: Good points. The contrast is usually qualia-v-quanta. I think color can be communicated and we have an RGB language for doing so that makes it more quanta than qualia. That doesn't work. RGB coordinates do not help a

### Re: Continuous Game of Life

On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 3:01 PM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: A identical twin is a clone, you're talking about a exact duplicate and I would shoot him. I was given a gun and I was forced to make a very emotional decision and my duplicate was not, so I have intense memories that he

### Re: Compact dimensions and orthogonality

On 10/25/2012 1:49 PM, Richard Ruquist wrote: I am still waiting for the explanation of how you know that to be true- that the compact manifolds are orthogonal to space dimensions. Richard Dear Richard, That is what the 'x' in the string of symbols M_4 x X means. The relation is

### Re: Dennett and others on qualia

You can identify a particular qualia with certain computational states of algorithms. All you need to do to (in principle) decide if a system is experiencing the color red is to see if the right algorithm is being executed. Saibal Citeren Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com: On

### Re: Strings are not in space-time, they are on space-time

On 10/25/2012 2:21 PM, Richard Ruquist wrote: Actually all string theories are based on an n dimensional manifold where n may be anywhere from 9 to 26 or more dimensions plus the assumption that all the dimensions but 3 compactify. I even think of time as a compactified dimension. Not sure if

### Re: Dennett and others on qualia

On Thursday, October 25, 2012 4:58:33 PM UTC-4, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote: You can identify a particular qualia with certain computational states of algorithms. All you need to do to (in principle) decide if a system is experiencing the color red is to see if the right algorithm is being

### Re: Dennett and others on qualia

Citeren Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com: On Thursday, October 25, 2012 4:58:33 PM UTC-4, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote: You can identify a particular qualia with certain computational states of algorithms. All you need to do to (in principle) decide if a system is experiencing the color red

### Re: Dennett and others on qualia

On 10/25/2012 5:16 PM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote: Citeren Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com: On Thursday, October 25, 2012 4:58:33 PM UTC-4, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote: You can identify a particular qualia with certain computational states of algorithms. All you need to do to (in principle)

### Re: Dennett and others on qualia

Citeren Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net: On 10/25/2012 5:16 PM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote: Citeren Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com: On Thursday, October 25, 2012 4:58:33 PM UTC-4, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote: You can identify a particular qualia with certain computational states of

### Re: Dennett and others on qualia

On 10/25/2012 3:01 PM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote: Citeren Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net: On 10/25/2012 5:16 PM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote: Citeren Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com: On Thursday, October 25, 2012 4:58:33 PM UTC-4, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote: You can identify a

### Re: Re: Re: Solipsism = 1p

On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 11:28 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: If you believed that our brains were already nothing but computers, then you would say that it would know which option to take the same way that Google knows which options to show you. I argue that can only get you

### Re: Re: Re: Solipsism = 1p

On Thursday, October 25, 2012 6:25:48 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 11:28 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: If you believed that our brains were already nothing but computers, then you would say that it would know which option to take the

### Re: Re: Re: Solipsism = 1p

On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 10:14 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Intentionally lying, defying it's programming, committing murder would all be good indicators. Generally when an error is blamed on the computer itself rather than the programming, that would be a good sign. A

### Re: Dennett and others on qualia

On Thursday, October 25, 2012 5:16:47 PM UTC-4, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote: Citeren Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript:: On Thursday, October 25, 2012 4:58:33 PM UTC-4, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote: You can identify a particular qualia with certain computational states of

### Re: Can comp simulate an experience ? What does that require ?

On Thursday, October 25, 2012 6:08:43 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote: In order for a computer or comp to simulate an experience it must be able to generate qualia. That is the plural of qua锟�e/'kw锟�e/ Noun: A quality or property as perceived or experienced by a person. So comp must

### Re: Re: Re: Solipsism = 1p

On Thursday, October 25, 2012 7:39:27 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 10:14 AM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: Intentionally lying, defying it's programming, committing murder would all be good indicators. Generally when an error is blamed on

### Re: Solipsism = 1p

On 10/25/2012 4:38 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 10:14 AM, Craig Weinbergwhatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Intentionally lying, defying it's programming, committing murder would all be good indicators. Generally when an error is blamed on the computer itself rather than

### Re: Re: Re: Solipsism = 1p

On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 11:00 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: On Thursday, October 25, 2012 7:39:27 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 10:14 AM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com wrote: Intentionally lying, defying it's programming, committing murder would

### Re: Re: Re: Solipsism = 1p

On Thursday, October 25, 2012 9:33:23 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 11:00 AM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: On Thursday, October 25, 2012 7:39:27 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 10:14 AM, Craig Weinberg

### Re: Re: Re: Solipsism = 1p

On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 12:41 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: We are atoms, molecules, cells, tissues, and organisms. Whatever we do is what the laws of physics *actually are*. Your assumptions about the laws of physics are 20th century legacy ideas based on exterior