Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ?

2012-11-07 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 06 Nov 2012, at 17:45, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: Hi Roger, If you want to read him that trivially, go ahead. The constant, eternal revaluation of all values. This is just implied by asking what's going on?. And yes, this is gently consistent with never ending platonic

Re: Communicability

2012-11-07 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 06 Nov 2012, at 03:42, meekerdb wrote: On 11/5/2012 8:13 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: Even with the Theaetetus’ definition of truth, which I find to be highly original and amazingly ingenious, we are still left without an explanation as to how the accidental coincidence of a

Re: Communicability

2012-11-07 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/7/2012 5:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 06 Nov 2012, at 03:42, meekerdb wrote: On 11/5/2012 8:13 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: Even with the Theaetetus’ definition of truth, which I find to be highly original and amazingly ingenious, we are still left without an explanation as to how

Arithmetic doesn't even suggest geometry, let alone awareness.

2012-11-07 Thread Craig Weinberg
Can anyone explain why geometry/topology would exist in a comp universe? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/GpiggMAKD74J. To post to this

Re: Plurality

2012-11-07 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/5/2012 1:49 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: [SPK] You are considering only one entity. This is incorrect. For example the first person plural is defined in term of duplication of populations of machines sharing universal numbers/computations. Dear Bruno, I would like to restrict my

Re: Arithmetic doesn't even suggest geometry, let alone awareness.

2012-11-07 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/7/2012 7:42 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: Can anyone explain why geometry/topology would exist in a comp universe? -- Hi Craig, So far it seems that there is only a singular set of countable recursive functions (or equivalent) and thus a single Boolean algebra for the Universal

Re: Heraclitus gets his feet wet

2012-11-07 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 06 Nov 2012, at 14:33, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal How can you be in two places at once ? Your soul, or 1p-you, cannot. Your body, or 3p-you, can be duplicated at the right level (which exists when assuming comp). At least in this universe ? Prisoners in jails would love

Re: (mathematical) solipsism

2012-11-07 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 06 Nov 2012, at 15:30, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal OK. That's analytic uncertainty. Yes indeed. Almost the opposite of the comp indeterminacy. With comp we get many form of indetermlinacies and uncertainties. And analytic deduction cannot really tell us anything new, it

Re: Weyl on mathematics vs. reality

2012-11-07 Thread Bruno Marchal
Hi Roger Clough, My understanding is that qualia are subjective or 1-view, while the realm of science is completely objective (3-view). I agree. A qualia, like the feeling of being convinced, or like the feeling of seeing the color red, is subjective (1p). But now the theory saying that

Re: Re: Re: Detecting Causality in Complex Ecosystems

2012-11-07 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Russell Standish Both Leibniz and quantum physics are acausal, meaning, at least in Leibniz's world, that things are what they are, they happen as they happen, whether this be deterministic or probabilistic, or even eschatollogically caused. The only constraint Leibniz placed on such

Re: why IMHO arithmetic is not a theory

2012-11-07 Thread Richard Ruquist
So comp does not explain MWI, it just explains many dreams On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 9:01 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 06 Nov 2012, at 15:02, Richard Ruquist wrote: How has comp explained how there are Many Worlds? I presume you mean MWI and many physical worlds, not just

Re: Communicability

2012-11-07 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 06 Nov 2012, at 16:57, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/6/2012 8:26 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 05 Nov 2012, at 16:17, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/5/2012 9:03 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Sirius was there before Paul was born. That position is called realism. Hi Roger,

Re: Re: Communicability

2012-11-07 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King Your criticism might be valid, but I never made the claim that Berkeley is said to have made. Leibniz, possibly more like you, would never have made such a claim. Leibniz believed that God is purposeful (caused things to happen at least partially due to end causes). Roger

Re: Communicability

2012-11-07 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 06 Nov 2012, at 17:02, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/6/2012 8:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 05 Nov 2012, at 17:10, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/5/2012 10:35 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Infallibility isn't involved. The typical textbook explanation for realism is, if a

Re: On the ontological status of elementary arithmetic

2012-11-07 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 06 Nov 2012, at 17:05, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/6/2012 8:33 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 05 Nov 2012, at 17:31, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/5/2012 11:24 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Hi Bruno, I am using the possibility of a claim to make my argument, not any actual instance of a

Re: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ?

2012-11-07 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal I feel exactly as you do. I would never have Nietzsche's books burned, there is much of value in them. Or at least some value. His criticism of reason's being used by Christianity, for example, parallels to an appreciable extent Luther's criticism of the Catholic church, three

Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ?

2012-11-07 Thread Platonist Guitar Cowboy
Hi Bruno, As I read it, the Übermensch is the being that is aware of the limits of Mensch ideology and values. Of course this can be hijacked to support discrimination against groups, but only if you want to be dishonest. But he emphasizes that abandoning the humanist conception of values is only

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-07 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 06 Nov 2012, at 19:45, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Define John Clark. Define define. See below. the semantic of proper name is the most difficult unsolved problem in philosophy. No it is not, the meaning of pronouns like I

Re: Detecting Causality in Complex Ecosystems

2012-11-07 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/7/2012 9:24 AM, Roger Clough wrote: I don't know (nor do I suspect that Leibniz knew) how one could calculate such a universe in perfect harmony in advance, but there's no need for that. It is simply an assumption, and looking out on the universe, I see no disharmony-- it all works just

artificial intelligence as synthetic abduction

2012-11-07 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal I think that dreams are the result of the mind's (not the brain's, as the article cited below suggests) intelligence trying to make sense of body signals such as from muscle relaxation, etc. In bringing up the subject of logical abduction (as well as autopoesis), these seem

Implications of Bell's theorem

2012-11-07 Thread Stephen P. King
Dear Friends, http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0307143 Violations of Locality Beyond Bell's Theorem Zeng-Bing Chen, Sixia Yu, Yong-De Zhang (Submitted on 20 Jul 2003) Locality and realism are two main assumptions in deriving Bell's inequalities. Though the experimentally demonstrated

Re: Plurality

2012-11-07 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 07 Nov 2012, at 13:48, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/5/2012 1:49 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: [SPK] You are considering only one entity. This is incorrect. For example the first person plural is defined in term of duplication of populations of machinessharing universal

Re: Re: Re: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ?

2012-11-07 Thread Platonist Guitar Cowboy
Hi Roger, If you have to quote Nietzsche enemies to make your ideological point, go ahead. This tells its own story, I don't have to comment further on. The Slave/Master thing boils down to something simpler than all this: do we want to rule ourselves or be ruled? Platonism he attacks insofar, as

Re: Arithmetic doesn't even suggest geometry, let alone awareness.

2012-11-07 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg I don't really know, but one starts with one point (a number ?) then two points to form a line, then rotation of that line to form an angle and a plane as well. I don't see why comp can't do all of that. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/7/2012 Forever is a long time,

Re: Arithmetic doesn't even suggest geometry, let alone awareness.

2012-11-07 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 07 Nov 2012, at 13:42, Craig Weinberg wrote: Can anyone explain why geometry/topology would exist in a comp universe? The execution of the UD cab be shown to be emulated (in Turing sense) by the arithmetical relation (even by the degree four diophantine polynomial). This contains all

Re: Communicability

2012-11-07 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/7/2012 9:31 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Your criticism might be valid, but I never made the claim that Berkeley is said to have made. Leibniz, possibly more like you, would never have made such a claim. Leibniz believed that God is purposeful (caused things to happen at

Consciousness = life = intelligence

2012-11-07 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Hal Ruhl Consciousness = life = intelligence. These are an inseparable, subjective, inextended properties of a living being. In addition, intelligence requires free will of some degree in order to make life-preserving choices for an associated, objective body, such as are required for

Re: Communicability

2012-11-07 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/7/2012 9:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Arithmetic explains why they are observers and how and why they make theories. Dear Bruno, This is a vacuous statement, IMHO. Absent the prior existence of entities capable of counting there is no such thing as Arithmetic. Your belief to the

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ?

2012-11-07 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy That fellow seemingly accepted all of Neitzche's views, as you seem to. I didn't say that one shouldn't endorse Nietzsche's views, that's your business, not mine. I don't, but that's my prerogative. I just just said that they are obviously incompatible with those

RE: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum

2012-11-07 Thread Hal Ruhl
Hi Stephen: pAP1 is #8 of the discussion initiating posts 8) Conclusion (2): Once life is present it will immediately punch as many holes in as many Energy Hang-up Barriers as the details of the particular life entity involved allows - this is how it realizes its energy flow conduit character.

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-07 Thread meekerdb
On 11/7/2012 1:14 AM, Jason Resch wrote: But it's hard to see what 1/pi of a duplicate would be. I am not sure I understand what you mean. Where do you get 1/Pi from? What is your point? That QM predicts probabilities other than 1/2, 1/3, 2/3 and other simple fractions. So an

Re: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ?

2012-11-07 Thread Platonist Guitar Cowboy
Hi Roger, You make me smile, without sarcasm. Usually he is accused of being too right in asserting will to power and his views on slave morality are usually used to justify this. If you do read him, note that his bombastic style, physical and naturalist metaphors and claims are where his

Re: Re: Detecting Causality in Complex Ecosystems

2012-11-07 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King The machine or program that made the calculation doesn't have to be real, it's purely an a priori, a given. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/7/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From:

Re: Peirce's concept of logical abduction-- a possible moneymaker

2012-11-07 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/7/2012 10:13 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal Yes, by new I mean contingent. But Kant, although his examples are debatable, at least sought a synthetic a priori, which of course would be a gold mine, or perhaps a stairway to the divine. Pragmatism rejects the idea of there being

Re: Peirce's concept of logical abduction-- a possible moneymaker

2012-11-07 Thread Bruno Marchal
Hi Roger Clough, Hi Bruno Marchal Yes, by new I mean contingent. But Kant, although his examples are debatable, at least sought a synthetic a priori, which of course would be a gold mine, or perhaps a stairway to the divine. Pragmatism rejects the idea of there being any such universals, but

Re: Communicability

2012-11-07 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/7/2012 10:21 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 07 Nov 2012, at 00:12, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/6/2012 11:01 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Even Berkeley had to admit that no forest, no whatever.. was foolishness and so said that in that case, God observed it. Get real. Hi

Re: Re: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ?

2012-11-07 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy The far right and the far left have many things in common. Or similar. The occupy folks are essentially anarchists, while we conservatives, although not wanting to do away with govt entirely, prefer to keep it small and less over-bearing. And although adding another

Re: Re: Peirce's concept of logical abduction-- a possible moneymaker

2012-11-07 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal Cool. Shows you how little I know. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/7/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-07, 12:05:11

RE: Consciousness = life = intelligence

2012-11-07 Thread Hal Ruhl
Hi Roger: -Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Roger Clough Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 11:06 AM To: everything-list Subject: Consciousness = life = intelligence Hi Hal Ruhl Consciousness = life =

Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ?

2012-11-07 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 07 Nov 2012, at 15:44, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal I feel exactly as you do. I would never have Nietzsche's books burned, there is much of value in them. Or at least some value. His criticism of reason's being used by Christianity, for example, parallels to an appreciable

Re: Communicability

2012-11-07 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 07 Nov 2012, at 17:13, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/7/2012 9:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Arithmetic explains why they are observers and how and why they make theories. Dear Bruno, This is a vacuous statement, IMHO. Absent the prior existence of entities capable of counting there is no

Re: Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ?

2012-11-07 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal A later Lutheran by the name of Kierkegaard said that God, being infinite, is an absurdity to finite man's brain. Being an absurdity, reason cannot apprehend God. K said instead that God can only be experienced subjectively, and that that experience of God was simply one of

Re: On the ontological status of elementary arithmetic

2012-11-07 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 07 Nov 2012, at 17:16, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/7/2012 9:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 06 Nov 2012, at 17:05, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/6/2012 8:33 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: snip This is not convincing as we can make statical interpretation of actions. In physics this is

Re: Re: Peirce's concept of logical abduction-- a possible moneymaker

2012-11-07 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King Glad to have a fellow enthusiast. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 11/7/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-11-07, 12:02:52

Re: Peirce's concept of logical abduction-- a possible moneymaker

2012-11-07 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 07 Nov 2012, at 18:12, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal Cool. Shows you how little I know. Those things are virtually unknown by most. Computer science is very technical, and the number of publications is explosive, almost an industry. It is also a gold mine, alas, most

Re: Arithmetic doesn't even suggest geometry, let alone awareness.

2012-11-07 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, November 7, 2012 10:49:04 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg I don't really know, but one starts with one point (a number ?) then two points to form a line, then rotation of that line to form an angle and a plane as well. I don't see why comp can't do all of

Re: Arithmetic doesn't even suggest geometry, let alone awareness.

2012-11-07 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, November 7, 2012 10:49:35 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 07 Nov 2012, at 13:42, Craig Weinberg wrote: Can anyone explain why geometry/topology would exist in a comp universe? The execution of the UD cab be shown to be emulated (in Turing sense) by the

Re: Re: Arithmetic doesn't even suggest geometry, let alone awareness.

2012-11-07 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, November 7, 2012 10:58:12 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg According to Kant, the fundamentals or primitives of spacetime objects are the two fundamental (inextended) intuitions: 1) a sliver of time alone (showing when something happens) and 2) a frame of

Re: Communicability

2012-11-07 Thread meekerdb
On 11/7/2012 5:52 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: Again: we are still left without an explanation as to how the accidental coincidence of a Platonic Truth and an actual fact of the world occurs. Why do you write 'accidental'? Platonia is our invention to describe classes of facts by

Re: Heraclitus gets his feet wet

2012-11-07 Thread meekerdb
On 11/7/2012 7:53 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: How can you be in two places at once ? Your soul, or 1p-you, cannot. A viewpoint implies a certain place, but I don't see that one can only be conscious of one place at a time. Consider the operator in Florida who is operating a drone over

Re: Re: Re: Detecting Causality in Complex Ecosystems

2012-11-07 Thread Russell Standish
I was reacting to the last sentence Their motions instead occur according to a pre-established (a priori) harmony. Not knowing specifically what you mean by harmony, I assumed it meant that the universe was being orchestrated by a supreme conductor. Whilst this view might be tenable in a

Re: Against Mechanism

2012-11-07 Thread Jason Resch
On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 11:37 AM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 2:05 AM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: Physics is at the bottom of all non-mathematical things that have an explanation, but we now know that some things have no explanation. We now

Re: Arithmetic doesn't even suggest geometry, let alone awareness.

2012-11-07 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/7/2012 10:24 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, November 7, 2012 8:19:03 AM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 11/7/2012 7:42 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: Can anyone explain why geometry/topology would exist in a comp universe? -- Hi Craig, So far it

Re: Life: origin, purpose, and qualia spectrum

2012-11-07 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/7/2012 11:40 AM, Hal Ruhl wrote: Hi Stephen: pAP1 is #8 of the discussion initiating posts 8) Conclusion (2): Once life is present it will immediately punch as many holes in as many Energy Hang-up Barriers as the details of the particular life entity involved allows - this is how it

Re: Is Nietzsche's shade wandering in platonia ?

2012-11-07 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/7/2012 11:44 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Cowboy, Without meaning to make any judgement, or mean any insult, sociologically Nietzsche is representative of the far left. Those people used to puzzle me (I am a conservative) since they were essentially hostile to all authority, which of course

Re: Communicability

2012-11-07 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/7/2012 11:48 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King That sounds like Leibniz. Each monad contains the views of all of the other monads in order to see the whole, not from just one perspective. Hi Roger, Yes, and that is why I like the idea of a Monad. I just don't agree with

Re: Communicability

2012-11-07 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/7/2012 12:01 PM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Sounds reasonable. Being a conservative, however, I tend to adopt orthodox views such as that of Leibniz (to my mind at least) and the Bible. Hi Roger, I am weird. I tend libertarian, but not archarchist. I see orthodoxy as

Re: Communicability

2012-11-07 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/7/2012 12:44 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 07 Nov 2012, at 17:13, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/7/2012 9:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Arithmetic explains why they are observers and how and why they make theories. Dear Bruno, This is a vacuous statement, IMHO. Absent the prior existence

Re: On the ontological status of elementary arithmetic

2012-11-07 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/7/2012 12:46 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 07 Nov 2012, at 17:16, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/7/2012 9:43 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 06 Nov 2012, at 17:05, Stephen P. King wrote: On 11/6/2012 8:33 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: snip This is not convincing as we can make statical

Re: Communicability

2012-11-07 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/7/2012 1:19 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 11/7/2012 5:52 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: Again: we are still left without an explanation as to how the accidental coincidence of a Platonic Truth and an actual fact of the world occurs. Why do you write 'accidental'? Platonia is our invention to

Re: Arithmetic doesn't even suggest geometry, let alone awareness.

2012-11-07 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, November 7, 2012 6:50:03 PM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 11/7/2012 10:24 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, November 7, 2012 8:19:03 AM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 11/7/2012 7:42 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: Can anyone explain why geometry/topology

Re: Arithmetic doesn't even suggest geometry, let alone awareness.

2012-11-07 Thread Stephen P. King
On 11/7/2012 8:18 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, November 7, 2012 6:50:03 PM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 11/7/2012 10:24 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, November 7, 2012 8:19:03 AM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 11/7/2012 7:42 AM, Craig

Re: Arithmetic doesn't even suggest geometry, let alone awareness.

2012-11-07 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 07 Nov 2012, at 19:04, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, November 7, 2012 10:49:35 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 07 Nov 2012, at 13:42, Craig Weinberg wrote: Can anyone explain why geometry/topology would exist in a comp universe? The execution of the UD cab be shown to be