Re: Whoever invented the word God invented atheism.

2013-01-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 08 Jan 2013, at 15:59, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal Whoever invented the word God invented atheism. Not necessarily. The modern notion of God comes with the platonist, and was almost a synonym with truth. There was an implicit, but reasonable assumption, that humans search

Re: Wave collapse and consciousness

2013-01-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 08 Jan 2013, at 17:50, Richard Ruquist wrote: For the record, Roger's post illuminates an optimal division between the mind: the EM, and quantum waves and, fields; and the body: mainly electrons and photons. We all seem to agree that the mind is arithmetic. Well, with comp, the mind

Re: Re: Is Sheldrake credible ? I personally think so.

2013-01-09 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal I understand your point, which is correct as long as there is a body in the field. But consider the quantum wavicle of a photon. It is just a quantum wave before it hits a photographic plate, at which point it becomes a distinct photon. The quantum form of the photon before

Re: HOW YOU CAN BECOME A LIBERAL THEOLOGIAN IN JUST 4 STEPS.

2013-01-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 08 Jan 2013, at 18:14, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 9:52 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: GOD means the reality in which you believe. Friends, are you tired of your old job, it's time to change your occupation and make big bucks, amaze your friends, be a hit at

Re: Science is a religion by itself.

2013-01-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 08 Jan 2013, at 18:53, meekerdb wrote: On 1/8/2013 6:56 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 07 Jan 2013, at 19:53, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Theism, like atheism, is unprovable. Why is that? You're saying that even though God is omnipotent

Re: Question: Robotic truth

2013-01-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 08 Jan 2013, at 20:42, meekerdb wrote: On 1/8/2013 10:37 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 07 Jan 2013, at 23:57, meekerdb wrote: In Bruno's theory both mind and matter are products of computation. I think it will turn out, as you say, that they are mutually necessary. At *our level* I

Re: Question: Robotic truth

2013-01-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 08 Jan 2013, at 21:19, Richard Ruquist wrote: At the most basic level reality is a discrete digital particle arithmetic with no need for further calculations in a block universe. I don't think so. particles are hgher level first person emergent phenomenon, from the symmetries brought

Could the Big Bang have been the collapse of a huge pre-existing quantum wave field ?

2013-01-09 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal There is nothing physical besides the probe before the probe interacts with the quantum wave field. The quantum wave field is simply a probability field (with prob 1) all over the universe. Anything with prob1 doesn't physically exist, because the (r,t) is not yet

Re: Whoever invented the word God invented atheism.

2013-01-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 08 Jan 2013, at 21:25, Alberto G. Corona wrote: Le me add some meat here We can not reduce the concept of God to a boring principle that we need to put somewhere. Like a ugly furniture inherited from the grand-parents which for its sentimental value we have to keep and locate

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is Sheldrake credible ? I personally think so.

2013-01-09 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy Tentative meaning would be more suitable than the word opinion. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/9/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy Receiver:

Re: Whoever invented the word God invented atheism.

2013-01-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 Jan 2013, at 01:01, meekerdb wrote: On 1/8/2013 12:25 PM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: Le me add some meat here Nah. It's just your wishful thinking that everybody has to believe in God. All correct and self-introspective machine will believe in (some) God. Keep in mind that

intuition as wave collapse

2013-01-09 Thread Roger Clough
After having discussed the collapse of a quantum field form of wavicle at a measurement probe, I wonder if ideas possibly enter consciousness in an analogous manner. Could they condense out of consciousness analogous to the collapse of a wavicle at a probe ?. Thus would be an intuitive idea.

Re: Re: Is Sheldrake credible ? I personally think so.

2013-01-09 Thread Roger Clough
Hi meekerdb Very good; that is possibly a new version of Idealism. Also, Sheldrake and many other philosophers (eg Plato) believe that vision is a two-stage process. First the light from the object enters into our eyes, then we project the image back out into the world to where we see the

Re: Re: HOW YOU CAN BECOME A LIBERAL THEOLOGIAN IN JUST 4 STEPS.

2013-01-09 Thread Roger Clough
Hi meekerdb Sheldrake's morphisms would be what John Clark or bruno theorized as God. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/9/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: meekerdb Receiver: everything-list

Re: Re: Whoever invented the word God invented atheism.

2013-01-09 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Richard Ruquist That could be so. But Wittgenstein and others believed that the meaning of a word is established through usage. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/9/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content -

Why you should do the unexpected bet in front of a QS experiment ?

2013-01-09 Thread Quentin Anciaux
Hi, let us start with the proposed QS experiment by Tegmark, a QS machine with a 99/100 chance of a *perfect* kill (so let's put aside HP failure or whatever so to have either the experimenter is killed with the given probabilities or it is not, no in between, so in 1/100 he is not killed and

Where do ideas come from?

2013-01-09 Thread Roger Clough
Penrose's concept of consciousness as quantum wave collapse would seem, at least this morning, to be similar or analogous to my suggestion that ideas are fixed forms of consciousness created by some type of collapse of quntum wave collapse such as photons are formed by the collapse of a

Re: Re: Subjective states can be somehow extracted from brains via acomputer

2013-01-09 Thread Telmo Menezes
Hi Craig, Cool. I actually would have agreed with you and a lot of people here at different times in my life. It's only been lately in the last five years or so that I have put together this other way of understanding everything. It gets lost in the debating, because I feel like I have to

Re: Re: Wave collapse and consciousness

2013-01-09 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal You say, Well, with comp, the mind arise from arithmetic. Wouldn't a Platonist say instead that arithmetic arises from mind ? [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/9/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the following

Re: Re: Whoever invented the word God invented atheism.

2013-01-09 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal Am I wrong ? I don't think that complexity and Platonism (top-down being) suit each other. Complexity seems to arise from bottom-up being as sets of miracles that happen when the Aristotelian intellect gets stuck. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/9/2013 Forever is

Re: Why you should do the unexpected bet in front of a QS experiment ?

2013-01-09 Thread Richard Ruquist
On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 6:10 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, let us start with the proposed QS experiment by Tegmark, a QS machine with a 99/100 chance of a *perfect* kill (so let's put aside HP failure or whatever so to have either the experimenter is killed with the given

Re: Whoever invented the word God invented atheism.

2013-01-09 Thread Richard Ruquist
On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 5:09 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 08 Jan 2013, at 15:59, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal Whoever invented the word God invented atheism. Not necessarily. The modern notion of God comes with the platonist, and was almost a synonym with truth.

Are EM waves and/or their fields physical ?

2013-01-09 Thread Roger Clough
Bruno, Another matter is that since the michaelson-morley experiment, space itself does not exist (is nonphysical). There is no aether. Electromagnetic waves propagate through nothing at all, suggesting to me, at least, that they, and their fields, are nonphysical. [Roger Clough],

Sensing the presence of God

2013-01-09 Thread Roger Clough
According to Plato, all love, all truth, and all beauty comes from the One (ie God). That being the case, when I experience love, truth or beauty, I sense God's presence. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/9/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen --

Re: Sensing the presence of God

2013-01-09 Thread Telmo Menezes
Where does hate, falsehood and ugliness come from? On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 1:18 PM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: According to Plato, all love, all truth, and all beauty comes from the One (ie God). That being the case, when I experience love, truth or beauty, I sense God's

Re: Science is a religion by itself.

2013-01-09 Thread Richard Ruquist
On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 12:26 AM, socra...@bezeqint.net socra...@bezeqint.net wrote: In beginning was Word. And the Word was written by the formula: T=0K. soc, You may be ripe to believe in string consciousness for its ontological basis is a cubic lattice of Calabi-Yau compact manifolds at

bad strangers and good friends

2013-01-09 Thread Roger Clough
Hi chris kramer Evidence ? God is like the cat burglar and never leaves traces. Generally, however, since God usually works through people (or angels), as once in a while in the Bible a stranger appears, or you might find a stranger (increased taxes) entering your life (usually to do evil),

Re: Re: Sensing the presence of God

2013-01-09 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Telmo Menezes In the Christian tradition, Satan. In the Platonic tradition (which Bruno knows much better than I do), I think the Demiurge. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/9/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the

Re: Re: Subjective states can be somehow extracted from brains via acomputer

2013-01-09 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, January 9, 2013 6:18:37 AM UTC-5, telmo_menezes wrote: Hi Craig, Cool. I actually would have agreed with you and a lot of people here at different times in my life. It's only been lately in the last five years or so that I have put together this other way of

Re: HOW YOU CAN BECOME A LIBERAL THEOLOGIAN IN JUST 4 STEPS.

2013-01-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 Jan 2013, at 12:07, Roger Clough wrote: Hi meekerdb Sheldrake's morphisms would be what John Clark or bruno theorized as God. I don't think so. I have never understood what Sheldrake's morphism are, but they seem physical, from what I can understand. God is not physical, and by

Re: Where do ideas come from?

2013-01-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 Jan 2013, at 12:17, Roger Clough wrote: Penrose's concept of consciousness as quantum wave collapse would seem, at least this morning, to be similar or analogous to my suggestion that ideas are fixed forms of consciousness created by some type of collapse of quntum wave collapse such as

Re: Wave collapse and consciousness

2013-01-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 Jan 2013, at 12:20, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal You say, Well, with comp, the mind arise from arithmetic. Wouldn't a Platonist say instead that arithmetic arises from mind ? Some Platonist have defended idealism, but the problem then is that we can no more an explanation

Re: Whoever invented the word God invented atheism.

2013-01-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 Jan 2013, at 12:27, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal Am I wrong ? I don't think that complexity and Platonism (top-down being) suit each other. Complexity seems to arise from bottom-up being as sets of miracles that happen when the Aristotelian intellect gets stuck. Complexity

Re: Whoever invented the word God invented atheism.

2013-01-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 Jan 2013, at 12:35, Richard Ruquist wrote: On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 5:09 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 08 Jan 2013, at 15:59, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal Whoever invented the word God invented atheism. Not necessarily. The modern notion of God comes with

Re: Are EM waves and/or their fields physical ?

2013-01-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 Jan 2013, at 13:04, Roger Clough wrote: Bruno, Another matter is that since the michaelson-morley experiment, space itself does not exist (is nonphysical). Space-time remains physical, here. There is no aether. Electromagnetic waves propagate through nothing at all, suggesting to

Re: Whoever invented the word God invented atheism.

2013-01-09 Thread Richard Ruquist
On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 09 Jan 2013, at 12:35, Richard Ruquist wrote: On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 5:09 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 08 Jan 2013, at 15:59, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal Whoever invented the word God

Re: Sensing the presence of God

2013-01-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 Jan 2013, at 13:18, Roger Clough wrote: According to Plato, all love, all truth, and all beauty comes from the One (ie God). That being the case, when I experience love, truth or beauty, I sense God's presence. I can be OK with this, but this will not convince an atheist, who

Re: Are EM waves and/or their fields physical ?

2013-01-09 Thread Richard Ruquist
On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 10:10 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 09 Jan 2013, at 13:04, Roger Clough wrote: Bruno, Another matter is that since the michaelson-morley experiment, space itself does not exist (is nonphysical). Space-time remains physical, here. There is no

Re: Sensing the presence of God

2013-01-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 Jan 2013, at 13:26, Telmo Menezes wrote: Where does hate, falsehood and ugliness come from? I am not quite sure, but it comes probably from the consistency of inconsistency (that is: Gödel's second incompleteness theorem). Actually it comes from the fact that Bf (inconsistency)

Re: Sensing the presence of God

2013-01-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 Jan 2013, at 14:29, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Telmo Menezes In the Christian tradition, Satan. In the Platonic tradition (which Bruno knows much better than I do), I think the Demiurge. Platonists are not so good on the bad, and the bad is really a complex problem. I suggest an

Re: Sensing the presence of God

2013-01-09 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 4:29 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 09 Jan 2013, at 13:26, Telmo Menezes wrote: Where does hate, falsehood and ugliness come from? I am not quite sure, but it comes probably from the consistency of inconsistency (that is: Gödel's second incompleteness

Re: Sensing the presence of God

2013-01-09 Thread John Mikes
Dear Bruno, you know we agree (mostly), you wrote lately that you are more agnostic than myself - what I doubt since your religion includes numbers and math(logic) and mine not. What I take for granted is our limited capability to learn them all about the *infinite complexity* of which we

Re: Whoever invented the word God invented atheism.

2013-01-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 Jan 2013, at 16:17, Richard Ruquist wrote: On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 09 Jan 2013, at 12:35, Richard Ruquist wrote: On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 5:09 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 08 Jan 2013, at 15:59, Roger Clough

Re: Sensing the presence of God

2013-01-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 Jan 2013, at 17:03, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 4:29 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 09 Jan 2013, at 13:26, Telmo Menezes wrote: Where does hate, falsehood and ugliness come from? I am not quite sure, but it comes probably from the consistency of

Re: Sensing the presence of God

2013-01-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
Dear John, On 09 Jan 2013, at 17:30, John Mikes wrote: you know we agree (mostly), you wrote lately that you are more agnostic than myself - what I doubt since your religion includes numbers and math(logic) and mine not. My religion (I prefer to say: my favorite working hypothesis) is

Re: Whoever invented the word God invented atheism.

2013-01-09 Thread Richard Ruquist
On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 09 Jan 2013, at 16:17, Richard Ruquist wrote: On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 09 Jan 2013, at 12:35, Richard Ruquist wrote: On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 5:09 AM, Bruno Marchal

Re: Why you should do the unexpected bet in front of a QS experiment ?

2013-01-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 Jan 2013, at 12:10, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Hi, let us start with the proposed QS experiment by Tegmark, I publish this before. It made some physicists rather nervous against me, so that I find worthy to vindicate it. I propose the comp suicide and immortality even well before. OK,

Re: Sensing the presence of God

2013-01-09 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 7:18 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: I sense God's presence. That's nice, but how do you know (and more important how do we know) if you are sensing a omnipotent being who created the universe or if you are sensing a bad potato that you ate yesterday? I've

Re: Why you should do the unexpected bet in front of a QS experiment ?

2013-01-09 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2013/1/9 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 09 Jan 2013, at 12:10, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Hi, let us start with the proposed QS experiment by Tegmark, I publish this before. It made some physicists rather nervous against me, so that I find worthy to vindicate it. I propose the comp

Re: Whoever invented the word God invented atheism.

2013-01-09 Thread meekerdb
On 1/9/2013 2:48 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 09 Jan 2013, at 01:01, meekerdb wrote: On 1/8/2013 12:25 PM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: Le me add some meat here Nah. It's just your wishful thinking that everybody has to believe in God. All correct and self-introspective machine will believe

Re: Why you should do the unexpected bet in front of a QS experiment ?

2013-01-09 Thread meekerdb
On 1/9/2013 3:10 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Hi, let us start with the proposed QS experiment by Tegmark, a QS machine with a 99/100 chance of a *perfect* kill (so let's put aside HP failure or whatever so to have either the experimenter is killed with the given probabilities or it is not, no

Re: Why you should do the unexpected bet in front of a QS experiment ?

2013-01-09 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2013/1/9 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net On 1/9/2013 3:10 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Hi, let us start with the proposed QS experiment by Tegmark, a QS machine with a 99/100 chance of a *perfect* kill (so let's put aside HP failure or whatever so to have either the experimenter is killed with

Re: Why you should do the unexpected bet in front of a QS experiment ?

2013-01-09 Thread David Nyman
On 9 January 2013 18:17, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: * David Nyman's heuristic makes me think that they could be zombie, but I am not sure this can work with comp.* Don't forget that we are speaking only of a heuristic, or guide for thought. The idea is to evaluate what consequences

Re: Whoever invented the word God invented atheism.

2013-01-09 Thread meekerdb
On 1/9/2013 7:05 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 09 Jan 2013, at 12:35, Richard Ruquist wrote: On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 5:09 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 08 Jan 2013, at 15:59, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal Whoever invented the word God invented atheism. Not

Re: Sensing the presence of God

2013-01-09 Thread meekerdb
On 1/9/2013 7:20 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 09 Jan 2013, at 13:18, Roger Clough wrote: According to Plato, all love, all truth, and all beauty comes from the One (ie God). That being the case, when I experience love, truth or beauty, I sense God's presence. I can be OK with this, but

Re: Why you should do the unexpected bet in front of a QS experiment ?

2013-01-09 Thread meekerdb
On 1/9/2013 11:52 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/1/9 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net On 1/9/2013 3:10 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Hi, let us start with the proposed QS experiment by Tegmark, a QS machine with a 99/100 chance of a

Re: Why you should do the unexpected bet in front of a QS experiment ?

2013-01-09 Thread meekerdb
On 1/9/2013 2:14 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: We start each with 100$ that we use to make the first bet, the column contains the $ we have in our pocket after the bet depending on the result. I don't know what Me and Brent mean in this? betting on survival or death? bet n° Experimenter

Re: HOW YOU CAN BECOME A LIBERAL THEOLOGIAN IN JUST 4 STEPS.

2013-01-09 Thread Kim Jones
Not in the dictionary. try again. On 09/01/2013, at 11:21 PM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote: paroxistic -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To

Re: Whoever invented the word God invented atheism.

2013-01-09 Thread socra...@bezeqint.net
Agreed, and I hope that truth is true . Richard Truth is true !!! / Richard / Very good proof. . . . . . . and . . ‘. . by Beauty that beautiful things are beautiful . . . by largeness that large things are large and larger things larger, and by smallness that smaller things ate smaller .

Re: Whoever invented the word God invented atheism.

2013-01-09 Thread socra...@bezeqint.net
Can we say that physical particles are often localised volumes that are full of infinities of discrete number relations Sounds to much physicalist for me (or comp). -- Particles in the vacuum ( T=0K ) have no volumes ( according to the laws of thermodynamics ) therefore we think

Re: Why you should do the unexpected bet in front of a QS experiment ?

2013-01-09 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2013/1/10 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net On 1/9/2013 2:14 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: We start each with 100$ that we use to make the first bet, the column contains the $ we have in our pocket after the bet depending on the result. I don't know what Me and Brent mean in this? betting on