Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

2013-02-09 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 12:41 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 2/8/2013 2:14 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: My point is that the only possible write algorithm that doesn't read information that is already stored is one that starts writing at random in any position. You could erase or

Re: context, comp, and multiverses

2013-02-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 08 Feb 2013, at 10:30, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 5:02 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 06 Feb 2013, at 18:02, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 5:01 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 06 Feb 2013, at 12:19, Telmo Menezes

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

2013-02-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 08 Feb 2013, at 13:45, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 12:39 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Quentin Anciaux

Re: The Plant Teachers

2013-02-09 Thread Alberto G. Corona
Opinions about this? As allways, excuses for my dyslexic writing. Sometimes I can not avoid it That plants produce physyological and psichological alterations in order to defend themselves from being eaten is a almost evident fact. Domestications of a plant is the effort to enlarge their

Re: The Plant Teachers

2013-02-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 09 Feb 2013, at 12:55, Alberto G. Corona wrote: Opinions about this? As allways, excuses for my dyslexic writing. Sometimes I can not avoid it I will come back later, when I have more time, on this. Here I will just assess what you say below: That plants produce physyological

Re: The Plant Teachers

2013-02-09 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 08 Feb 2013, at 21:38, meekerdb wrote: On 2/8/2013 12:31 AM, Kim Jones wrote: Which is a profound problem that we can lay right at the door of LANGUAGE. Language is indeed a self-serving thing. A description of something is a dance of language, not a dance of PERCEPTION. Perception

Re: The Plant Teachers

2013-02-09 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, February 9, 2013 8:15:21 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Feb 2013, at 21:38, meekerdb wrote: On 2/8/2013 12:31 AM, Kim Jones wrote: Which is a profound problem that we can lay right at the door of LANGUAGE. Language is indeed a self-serving thing. A description of

Re: The Plant Teachers

2013-02-09 Thread Platonist Guitar Cowboy
On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 3:14 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: On Saturday, February 9, 2013 8:15:21 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Feb 2013, at 21:38, meekerdb wrote: On 2/8/2013 12:31 AM, Kim Jones wrote: Which is a profound problem that we can lay right at the door

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

2013-02-09 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 ameekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: Evolution can only move species to local maxima of fitness. That is true and is a severe limitation of Evolution, a limitation a mind designed by a intelligence, like a computer, would not have. You seem to be saying that a mind

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

2013-02-09 Thread meekerdb
On 2/9/2013 1:43 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 12:41 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 2/8/2013 2:14 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: My point is that the only possible write algorithm that doesn't read information that is

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-02-09 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: If geometry did not exist. Could you invent it with mathematics alone? Mathematicians have invented geometries of 5, 6, 7, or even a infinite number of dimensions as in Hilbert space even though they have no tactile experience

Re: The Plant Teachers

2013-02-09 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, February 9, 2013 10:10:30 AM UTC-5, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 3:14 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: On Saturday, February 9, 2013 8:15:21 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Feb 2013, at 21:38, meekerdb wrote: On

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-02-09 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, February 9, 2013 1:31:55 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript:wrote: If geometry did not exist. Could you invent it with mathematics alone? Mathematicians have invented geometries of 5, 6, 7, or even a infinite

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-02-09 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, February 9, 2013 1:31:55 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript:wrote: If geometry did not exist. Could you invent it with mathematics alone? Mathematicians have invented geometries of 5, 6, 7, or even a infinite

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-02-09 Thread Simon Forman
But then doesn't that leave subjectivity fundamentally mysterious? If form/geometry is first and math second (which fits my own understanding at this time) the what is it that is apprehending math? And does it have form? ~Simon On 2/9/13, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: On

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-02-09 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, February 9, 2013 3:32:52 PM UTC-5, Simon Forman wrote: But then doesn't that leave subjectivity fundamentally mysterious? I think that human subjectivity is a range of qualities of experience, some rooted in the sub-personal, some in the super-personal, and some reflected

Re: HOW YOU CAN BECOME A LIBERAL THEOLOGIAN IN JUST 4 STEPS.

2013-02-09 Thread meekerdb
On 2/9/2013 6:16 AM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: If you make evolution set the standard, then you have to buy the darker side of its theology: Good Tsunami, asteroid, CO2, mass extinctions of life forms; as these shocks will create a stronger forcing function on populations and individuals

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

2013-02-09 Thread meekerdb
On 2/9/2013 7:52 AM, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 ameekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: Evolution can only move species to local maxima of fitness. That is true and is a severe limitation of Evolution, a limitation a mind designed by a intelligence,

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

2013-02-09 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 12:38 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 08 Feb 2013, at 13:45, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 12:39 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: 2013/2/8 Telmo Menezes

Re: HOW YOU CAN BECOME A LIBERAL THEOLOGIAN IN JUST 4 STEPS.

2013-02-09 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, February 9, 2013 5:03:58 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 2/9/2013 6:16 AM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: If you make evolution set the standard, then you have to buy the darker side of its theology: Good Tsunami, asteroid, CO2, mass extinctions of life forms; as these shocks

Re: HOW YOU CAN BECOME A LIBERAL THEOLOGIAN IN JUST 4 STEPS.

2013-02-09 Thread meekerdb
On 2/9/2013 3:08 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: Evolution would have no need for generating values, since values are a subjective motivation. Subjective motivation is just a quantitative value seen from the inside. All evolution would have to do is simply impose a script that assigns a high

Re: HOW YOU CAN BECOME A LIBERAL THEOLOGIAN IN JUST 4 STEPS.

2013-02-09 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, February 9, 2013 6:29:54 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 2/9/2013 3:08 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: Evolution would have no need for generating values, since values are a subjective motivation. Subjective motivation is just a quantitative value seen from the inside. Why would

Re: HOW YOU CAN BECOME A LIBERAL THEOLOGIAN IN JUST 4 STEPS.

2013-02-09 Thread meekerdb
On 2/9/2013 3:39 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Saturday, February 9, 2013 6:29:54 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 2/9/2013 3:08 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: Evolution would have no need for generating values, since values are a subjective motivation. Subjective motivation is just a

Re: The Plant Teachers

2013-02-09 Thread Kim Jones
What an extraordinarily interesting idea, Craig! I'll have to let Brian Eno know about this. Eno was recently talking about the possibilities of a new kind of inaudible music. Actually, John Cage already invented that in the '50s with his infamous piece 4'.33 - where the pianist walks to the

Re: HOW YOU CAN BECOME A LIBERAL THEOLOGIAN IN JUST 4 STEPS.

2013-02-09 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, February 9, 2013 6:52:46 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 2/9/2013 3:39 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Saturday, February 9, 2013 6:29:54 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 2/9/2013 3:08 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: Evolution would have no need for generating values, since values are a

Re: HOW YOU CAN BECOME A LIBERAL THEOLOGIAN IN JUST 4 STEPS.

2013-02-09 Thread meekerdb
On 2/9/2013 4:39 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Saturday, February 9, 2013 6:52:46 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 2/9/2013 3:39 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Saturday, February 9, 2013 6:29:54 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 2/9/2013 3:08 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: Evolution

Re: The Plant Teachers

2013-02-09 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, February 9, 2013 6:54:38 PM UTC-5, Kim Jones wrote: What an extraordinarily interesting idea, Craig! I'll have to let Brian Eno know about this. Eno was recently talking about the possibilities of a new kind of inaudible music. Actually, John Cage already invented that in

Re: HOW YOU CAN BECOME A LIBERAL THEOLOGIAN IN JUST 4 STEPS.

2013-02-09 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, February 9, 2013 7:57:03 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 2/9/2013 4:39 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Saturday, February 9, 2013 6:52:46 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 2/9/2013 3:39 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Saturday, February 9, 2013 6:29:54 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On

Re: HOW YOU CAN BECOME A LIBERAL THEOLOGIAN IN JUST 4 STEPS.

2013-02-09 Thread meekerdb
On 2/9/2013 5:13 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: It's how I recognize intelligence - and so do you. No, I recognize intelligence by experiencing learning. If there were an Elvis impersonator who was so good that you could not tell the difference between a film of him performing and one of

Re: HOW YOU CAN BECOME A LIBERAL THEOLOGIAN IN JUST 4 STEPS.

2013-02-09 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Saturday, February 9, 2013 9:07:50 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 2/9/2013 5:13 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: It's how I recognize intelligence - and so do you. No, I recognize intelligence by experiencing learning. If there were an Elvis impersonator who was so good that you could not

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

2013-02-09 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 1:42 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: You are convinced that computers and other machines don't have consciousness, but you can't say what test you will apply to them and see them fail. I'm convinced of that because I understand why there is no reason

Science is a religion by itself.

2013-02-09 Thread socra...@bezeqint.net
How to describe the Universe as it really is ? =. In his Scientific Autobiography Max Planck wrote : ' The outside world is something independent from man, something absolute, and the quest for the laws which apply to this absolute appeared to me as the most sublime scientific pursuit in

Re: Science is a religion by itself.

2013-02-09 Thread meekerdb
On 2/9/2013 10:46 PM, socra...@bezeqint.net wrote: How to describe the Universe as it really is ? =. In his Scientific Autobiography Max Planck wrote : ' The outside world is something independent from man, something absolute, and the quest for the laws which apply to this absolute