Re: The duplicators and the restorers

2013-02-13 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 4:45 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: What is to stop duplication of, say, the simplest possible conscious being made up of only a few atoms? Because I suspect that conscious beings are not made of atoms, rather atoms exist in the experience of beings.

The LSD Thumbprint

2013-02-13 Thread Telmo Menezes
What's it like? - It's not possible to describe what it's like. Except maybe DEATH. What did you see? - ALL What did you do? - My body did nothing, but lay down. I was no more, just ALL http://insanebraintrain.blogspot.fr/2011/07/massive-dosing-lsd-thumbprint.html -- You received this

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

2013-02-13 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 11:49 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 2/12/2013 2:40 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: I don't know what sort of computer your typed you post on but by 1997 standards it is almost certainly a supercomputer, probably the most powerful supercomputer in the world. I'll

Re: The LSD Thumbprint

2013-02-13 Thread Alberto G. Corona
Almost the same sensations provoked by a stroke: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTrJqmKoveU There is nothing in LSD or any other psychodelical drugs, except the impairement fo the pre-conscious control of what arrives to the conscious produced by the (different modules of the) brain, That is a

Re: The duplicators and the restorers

2013-02-13 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 13 Feb 2013, at 04:09, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: Consider the following thought experiment, called The Duplicators: At 1:00 PM tomorrow, you will be abducted by aliens. The aliens will tell you not to worry,

Re: The duplicators and the restorers

2013-02-13 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 13 Feb 2013, at 06:45, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, February 12, 2013 10:09:40 PM UTC-5, stathisp wrote: On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com wrote: 1. Do you consider yourself to have experienced the torture in the case of the Restorers, even

Re: Does p make sense?

2013-02-13 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 13 Feb 2013, at 02:28, Russell Standish wrote: On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 11:05:37AM -0800, Craig Weinberg wrote: When we talk about a Bp, relating to consciousness is that we are making an assumption about what a proposition is. In fact, if we look closely, a proposition can only be

Re: The duplicators and the restorers

2013-02-13 Thread Stephen P. King
On 2/13/2013 10:26 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 13 Feb 2013, at 06:45, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, February 12, 2013 10:09:40 PM UTC-5, stathisp wrote: On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript: wrote: 1. Do you consider yourself to

Re: Does p make sense?

2013-02-13 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 12 Feb 2013, at 20:05, Craig Weinberg wrote: When we talk about a Bp, relating to consciousness is that we are making an assumption about what a proposition is. In fact, if we look closely, a proposition can only be another level of B. p is really nothing but a group of sub-personal

Re: Does p make sense?

2013-02-13 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 13 Feb 2013, at 03:03, meekerdb wrote: On 2/12/2013 5:28 PM, Russell Standish wrote: On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 11:05:37AM -0800, Craig Weinberg wrote: When we talk about a Bp, relating to consciousness is that we are making an assumption about what a proposition is. In fact, if we look

Simulated Intelligence Mini-Manifesto

2013-02-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
*Wouldn’t Simulated Intelligence be a more appropriate term than Artificial Intelligence?* Thinking of it objectively, if we have a program which can model a hurricane, we would call that hurricane a simulation, not an ‘artificial hurricane’. If we modeled any physical substance, force, or

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

2013-02-13 Thread meekerdb
On 2/13/2013 3:10 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: The main reason Watson and similar programs fail to have human like intelligence is that they lack human like values and motivations True, but they could have generic intelligence -- the ability to learn something new in a new domain, just by being

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-02-13 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 11 Feb 2013, at 21:43, Stephen P. King wrote: On 2/11/2013 10:23 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 10 Feb 2013, at 20:36, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Sunday, February 10, 2013 11:16:31 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 09 Feb 2013, at 22:07, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Saturday, February 9,

Re: The duplicators and the restorers

2013-02-13 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 13 Feb 2013, at 16:25, Jason Resch wrote: On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 13 Feb 2013, at 04:09, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: Consider the following thought

Re: The duplicators and the restorers

2013-02-13 Thread Jason Resch
Bruno, Thanks for your response. I think I understand now. Jason On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 11:13 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 13 Feb 2013, at 16:25, Jason Resch wrote: On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 13 Feb 2013, at 04:09,

Re: The duplicators and the restorers

2013-02-13 Thread Bruno Marchal
Hi Stephen, On 13 Feb 2013, at 16:53, Stephen P. King wrote: On 2/13/2013 10:26 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 13 Feb 2013, at 06:45, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, February 12, 2013 10:09:40 PM UTC-5, stathisp wrote: On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com

Re: How can intelligence be physical ?

2013-02-13 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: So far, nobody has been able to figure out a learning algorithm as generic as the one our brains contains. The developers of Watson have come very close to doing exactly that. there is definitely room for generalists. Then

Re: Simulated Intelligence Mini-Manifesto

2013-02-13 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 13 Feb 2013, at 17:35, Craig Weinberg wrote: Wouldn’t Simulated Intelligence be a more appropriate term than Artificial Intelligence? A better term would be natural imagination. But terms are not important. Thinking of it objectively, if we have a program which can model a

Re: The duplicators and the restorers

2013-02-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, February 13, 2013 3:58:31 AM UTC-5, stathisp wrote: On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 4:45 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: What is to stop duplication of, say, the simplest possible conscious being made up of only a few atoms? Because I suspect

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-02-13 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Then why can't a one dimensional Turing machine do geometry, It can solve geometry problems, Yes. but it can't generate geometric forms. Can you generate geometric forms? Your fingers can draw a triangle but are you

Re: The duplicators and the restorers

2013-02-13 Thread meekerdb
On 2/13/2013 7:26 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Experiences cannot be duplicated literally, because I suspect that unique is the only thing that experiences can literally be. I agree with this, in the sense that this follows also from computationalism, and thus 3p-duplicability at some level. An

Re: Simulated Intelligence Mini-Manifesto

2013-02-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, February 13, 2013 12:46:23 PM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 13 Feb 2013, at 17:35, Craig Weinberg wrote: *Wouldn’t Simulated Intelligence be a more appropriate term than Artificial Intelligence?* A better term would be natural imagination. But terms are not important.

Re: Does p make sense?

2013-02-13 Thread meekerdb
On 2/13/2013 8:04 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 13 Feb 2013, at 03:03, meekerdb wrote: On 2/12/2013 5:28 PM, Russell Standish wrote: On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 11:05:37AM -0800, Craig Weinberg wrote: When we talk about a Bp, relating to consciousness is that we are making an assumption about

Re: Simulated Intelligence Mini-Manifesto

2013-02-13 Thread meekerdb
On 2/13/2013 8:35 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: *Wouldn’t Simulated Intelligence be a more appropriate term than Artificial Intelligence?* Thinking of it objectively, if we have a program which can model a hurricane, we would call that hurricane a simulation, not an ‘artificial hurricane’. If we

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-02-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, February 13, 2013 1:23:14 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript:wrote: Then why can't a one dimensional Turing machine do geometry, It can solve geometry problems, Yes. but it can't generate geometric forms.

Re: Does p make sense?

2013-02-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, February 13, 2013 10:56:05 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 12 Feb 2013, at 20:05, Craig Weinberg wrote: When we talk about a Bp, relating to consciousness is that we are making an assumption about what a proposition is. In fact, if we look closely, a proposition can only

Re: The duplicators and the restorers

2013-02-13 Thread Stephen P. King
On 2/13/2013 2:36 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 2/13/2013 7:26 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Experiences cannot be duplicated literally, because I suspect that unique is the only thing that experiences can literally be. I agree with this, in the sense that this follows also from computationalism, and

Re: Does p make sense?

2013-02-13 Thread Stephen P. King
On 2/13/2013 2:46 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 2/13/2013 8:04 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 13 Feb 2013, at 03:03, meekerdb wrote: On 2/12/2013 5:28 PM, Russell Standish wrote: On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 11:05:37AM -0800, Craig Weinberg wrote: When we talk about a Bp, relating to consciousness is that

Re: Simulated Intelligence Mini-Manifesto

2013-02-13 Thread Stephen P. King
On 2/13/2013 2:58 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 2/13/2013 8:35 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: *Wouldn’t Simulated Intelligence be a more appropriate term than Artificial Intelligence?* Thinking of it objectively, if we have a program which can model a hurricane, we would call that hurricane a

Re: Simulated Intelligence Mini-Manifesto

2013-02-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, February 13, 2013 2:58:28 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 2/13/2013 8:35 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: *Wouldn�t Simulated Intelligence be a more appropriate term than Artificial Intelligence?* Thinking of it objectively, if we have a program which can model a hurricane, we

Re: Simulated Intelligence Mini-Manifesto

2013-02-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, February 13, 2013 5:11:32 PM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 2/13/2013 2:58 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 2/13/2013 8:35 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: *Wouldn�t Simulated Intelligence be a more appropriate term than Artificial Intelligence?* Thinking of it objectively, if

Re: Simulated Intelligence Mini-Manifesto

2013-02-13 Thread Stephen P. King
On 2/13/2013 5:40 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: [SPK wrote} What difference that makes a difference does that make in the grand scheme of things? The point is that we cannot 'prove' that we are not in a gigantic simulation. Yeah, we cannot prove a negative, but we can extract a lot

Re: Simulated Intelligence Mini-Manifesto

2013-02-13 Thread Stephen P. King
On 2/13/2013 5:21 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, February 13, 2013 2:58:28 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 2/13/2013 8:35 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: *Wouldn�t Simulated Intelligence be a more appropriate term than Artificial Intelligence?* Thinking of it objectively, if we

Re: Simulated Intelligence Mini-Manifesto

2013-02-13 Thread Stephen P. King
On 2/13/2013 5:40 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: [SPK wrote: ]'reality = best possible simulation. I just realized how to translate that into my view: Reality = making the most sense possible. Same thing really. That's why I talk about multisense Realism, with Realism being the quality of

Re: Chosen-ness

2013-02-13 Thread freqflyer07281972
Hi Craig, Thank you for your very well considered point of view on my original post. I have some interjections that I would enjoy hearing a response to: On Sunday, January 27, 2013 9:37:03 PM UTC-5, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Sunday, January 27, 2013 5:35:22 PM UTC-5, freqflyer07281972

Re: Simulated Intelligence Mini-Manifesto

2013-02-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:05:38 PM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 2/13/2013 5:40 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: [SPK wrote: ]'reality = best possible simulation. I just realized how to translate that into my view: Reality = making the most sense possible. Same thing really.

Re: Simulated Intelligence Mini-Manifesto

2013-02-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, February 13, 2013 5:51:27 PM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 2/13/2013 5:40 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: [SPK wrote} What difference that makes a difference does that make in the grand scheme of things? The point is that we cannot 'prove' that we are not in a gigantic

Re: Simulated Intelligence Mini-Manifesto

2013-02-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, February 13, 2013 5:37:08 PM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 2/13/2013 5:21 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, February 13, 2013 2:58:28 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 2/13/2013 8:35 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: *Wouldn�t Simulated Intelligence be a more

Re: Simulated Intelligence Mini-Manifesto

2013-02-13 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 3:35 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Wouldn’t Simulated Intelligence be a more appropriate term than Artificial Intelligence? Thinking of it objectively, if we have a program which can model a hurricane, we would call that hurricane a simulation, not an

Re: Chosen-ness

2013-02-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, February 13, 2013 7:05:39 PM UTC-5, freqflyer07281972 wrote: Hi Craig, Thank you for your very well considered point of view on my original post. I have some interjections that I would enjoy hearing a response to: Thanks Dan, I'll try my best. On Sunday, January 27,

Re: Simulated Intelligence Mini-Manifesto

2013-02-13 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, February 13, 2013 9:45:43 PM UTC-5, stathisp wrote: On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 3:35 AM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: Wouldn’t Simulated Intelligence be a more appropriate term than Artificial Intelligence? Thinking of it objectively, if we

Re: Simulated Intelligence Mini-Manifesto

2013-02-13 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 2:27 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: Whether the intelligence has the same associated consciousness or not is a matter for debate, but not the intelligence itself. I disagree. There is no internal intelligence there at all. Zero. There is a recording

Re: Simulated Intelligence Mini-Manifesto

2013-02-13 Thread Stephen P. King
On 2/13/2013 8:09 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: [SPK wrote: ]I like the idea of a Matrix universe exactly for that reason; it takes resources to 'run' it. No free lunch, even for universes!!! You can still have the idea of resources if the universe isn't a simulation though. No

Re: Simulated Intelligence Mini-Manifesto

2013-02-13 Thread Stephen P. King
On 2/13/2013 9:41 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, February 13, 2013 5:37:08 PM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 2/13/2013 5:21 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, February 13, 2013 2:58:28 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 2/13/2013 8:35 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: