Re: Brain teaser

2013-03-08 Thread Telmo Menezes
Hi Stephen, What is the difference between a random sequence of bits and a meaningful message? The correct decryption scheme. That's an excellent question. I suspect a scheme might not be necessary to infer the presence of meaning, but what I'm going to say is very empirical. Suppose a

Re: Brain teaser

2013-03-08 Thread Stephen P. King
On 3/8/2013 6:17 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: Hi Stephen, What is the difference between a random sequence of bits and a meaningful message? The correct decryption scheme. That's an excellent question. I suspect a scheme might not be necessary to infer the presence of meaning, but what I'm

Re: Brain teaser

2013-03-08 Thread Stephen P. King
On 3/8/2013 7:41 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: That may be not enough. suppose that you are starving, and you receive in your phone a message describing where is the next source of water but somehow the description is interspersed in the description of the complete equation of the M Theory

Re: Thin Client

2013-03-08 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Thursday, March 7, 2013 11:34:49 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 3/7/2013 6:40 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, March 7, 2013 8:58:29 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 3/7/2013 4:57 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, March 7, 2013 7:33:46 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 3/7/2013

Re: Brain teaser

2013-03-08 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, March 8, 2013 7:41:23 AM UTC-5, Alberto G.Corona wrote: That may be not enough. suppose that you are starving, and you receive in your phone a message describing where is the next source of water but somehow the description is interspersed in the description of the complete

Re: Brain teaser

2013-03-08 Thread Alberto G. Corona
2013/3/8 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com On Friday, March 8, 2013 7:41:23 AM UTC-5, Alberto G.Corona wrote: That may be not enough. suppose that you are starving, and you receive in your phone a message describing where is the next source of water but somehow the description is

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-08 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 07 Mar 2013, at 15:20, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 10:28 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: Isn't it more likely that the drug simply makes your narrative thoughts less able than usual to trace their sources? So it is like the Poincare' effect

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-08 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 07 Mar 2013, at 16:11, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Friday, March 8, 2013, Stephen P. King wrote: On 3/7/2013 8:44 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, March 7, 2013 12:59:50 AM UTC-5, stathisp wrote: By the definition I gave above a stone does not choose to roll down the hill

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-08 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 07 Mar 2013, at 16:43, Stephen P. King wrote: On 3/7/2013 10:11 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Friday, March 8, 2013, Stephen P. King wrote: On 3/7/2013 8:44 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, March 7, 2013 12:59:50 AM UTC-5, stathisp wrote: By the definition I gave above a

Re: Thin Client

2013-03-08 Thread meekerdb
On 3/8/2013 5:43 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: That's my test - shifting a person to a totally synthetic brain and back. If we don't have the technology to do that, then we can't do the test and we can't know if synthetic brains are the same as natural. Then why do you pretend to know it?

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-08 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 07 Mar 2013, at 17:07, Stephen P. King wrote: On 3/7/2013 10:58 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, March 7, 2013 10:43:06 AM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: On 3/7/2013 10:11 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Friday, March 8, 2013, Stephen P. King wrote: On 3/7/2013 8:44 AM,

Re: Cats fall for illusions too

2013-03-08 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 07 Mar 2013, at 17:36, Terren Suydam wrote: I have no doubt that Craig will somehow see this as a vindication of his theory and a refutation of mechanism. All videos with cats are lovely. I agree with you that they can hardly be used to refute mechanism ... ... even when cats do

Re: MGA is back (on the FOAR list)

2013-03-08 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 07 Mar 2013, at 17:37, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, March 7, 2013 8:19:06 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 06 Mar 2013, at 18:49, Craig Weinberg wrote: I understand where you are coming from in MGA now, Bruno, and again there is nothing wrong with your reasoning, but in that

Re: Thin Client

2013-03-08 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 07 Mar 2013, at 23:21, Stephen P. King wrote: On 3/7/2013 12:04 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: If you have ever worked with Terminal Servers, RDP, Citrix Metaframe, or the like (and that's what I have been doing professionally every day for the last 14 years), you will understand the idea

Re: Thin Client

2013-03-08 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 07 Mar 2013, at 23:45, meekerdb wrote: On 3/7/2013 2:21 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 3/7/2013 12:04 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: If you have ever worked with Terminal Servers, RDP, Citrix Metaframe, or the like (and that's what I have been doing professionally every day for the last 14

Re: Thin Client

2013-03-08 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 08 Mar 2013, at 01:57, Craig Weinberg wrote: What is your empirical evidence that will convince you that my view is right? No empirical evidence can convince anyone that a view is right. Empirical evidence can convince someone that a view is wrong. Only. Bruno Craig

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-08 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 07 Mar 2013, at 22:50, Russell Standish wrote: On Tue, Mar 05, 2013 at 03:53:13PM +0100, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 04 Mar 2013, at 20:16, meekerdb wrote: On 3/4/2013 4:23 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 03 Mar 2013, at 20:35, meekerdb wrote: Some randomness can be useful, if only to solve

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-08 Thread Stephen P. King
On 3/8/2013 12:25 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Yes, we know that classical determinism is wrong, but it is not logically inconsistent with consciousness. I must disagree. It is baked into the topology of classical mechanics that a system cannot semantically act upon itself. ? (that seems

Re: Brain teaser

2013-03-08 Thread Stephen P. King
On 3/8/2013 12:37 PM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: Hi Stephen, According with my definition the information depends both on the message and the state of the autonomous entity. Hi Alberto, Thank you for your comments! An autonomous Turing machine (call it robot) can and maybe sould have

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-08 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 07 Mar 2013, at 23:37, Telmo Menezes wrote: Alex Trebek: This tool can unclog a toilet. Watson: What is a plunger? Telmo Menezes: look Watson, I have a problem. My wife is mad at me and I don't know why. I suspect it's because I didn't buy her flowers for Valentine's, but she keeps

Re: Thin Client

2013-03-08 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, March 8, 2013 1:04:23 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 3/8/2013 5:43 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: That's my test - shifting a person to a totally synthetic brain and back. If we don't have the technology to do that, then we can't do the test and we can't know if synthetic brains are

Re: Cats fall for illusions too

2013-03-08 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 08 Mar 2013, at 05:37, Terren Suydam wrote: Ah. That's above my pay grade unfortunately. But I don't think our immediate failure to solve that problem dooms the idea that a cat's experience of the world is explainable in terms of mechanism. Conversely, even if we did solve it, there

Re: Dartmouth neuroscientist finds free will has neural basis

2013-03-08 Thread Stephen P. King
On 3/8/2013 1:08 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Exactly. This is why computations are exactly describable as strings... It is less wrong to say that description of computation can be denoted with string. Computation themselves are not strings. They are sequence of states related by some universal

Re: Cats fall for illusions too

2013-03-08 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 08 Mar 2013, at 05:53, Terren Suydam wrote: That's interesting to me too. Actually I'm surprised you are not more embracing of Bruno's ideas because they give life to the idea of conscious software. You seem to me to be reluctant to give up materialism, but philosophically speaking I

Re: Thin Client

2013-03-08 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, March 8, 2013 1:50:45 PM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Mar 2013, at 01:57, Craig Weinberg wrote: What is your empirical evidence that will convince you that my view is right? No empirical evidence can convince anyone that a view is right. Empirical evidence can

Re: Brain teaser

2013-03-08 Thread John Mikes
Stephen, you know my aversion against random: it is a disorderly sequence the origination of which is not (yet?) disclosed to us - usually excluded from our ordinate view of nature since it deprives the prediction according to the so far derived (physical?) laws. My second part to your question:

Re: Brain teaser

2013-03-08 Thread Stephen P. King
On 3/8/2013 3:05 PM, John Mikes wrote: Stephen, you know my aversion against random: it is a disorderly sequence the origination of which is not (yet?) disclosed to us - usually excluded from our ordinate view of nature since it deprives the prediction according to the so far derived

Re: MGA is back (on the FOAR list)

2013-03-08 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, March 8, 2013 1:35:12 PM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 07 Mar 2013, at 17:37, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, March 7, 2013 8:19:06 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 06 Mar 2013, at 18:49, Craig Weinberg wrote: I understand where you are coming from in MGA now, Bruno,

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-08 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: Telmo Menezes: look Watson, I have a problem. My wife is mad at me and I don't know why. I suspect it's because I didn't buy her flowers for Valentine's, but she keeps telling me that she doesn't want them. Can you give me some

Re: MGA is back (on the FOAR list)

2013-03-08 Thread Stephen P. King
On 3/8/2013 4:33 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, March 8, 2013 1:35:12 PM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 07 Mar 2013, at 17:37, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, March 7, 2013 8:19:06 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 06 Mar 2013, at 18:49, Craig Weinberg wrote:

True?

2013-03-08 Thread Stephen P. King
Hi, Is the following a sound claim? ...scientifically meaningful propositions are questions about the past, the present, the future, or the eternal laws that: * might in principle be both false and true * admit a method, at least in principle, to evaluate their truth values. --

Re: True?

2013-03-08 Thread Stephen P. King
On 3/8/2013 11:08 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: Hi, Is the following a sound claim? ...scientifically meaningful propositions are questions about the past, the present, the future, or the eternal laws that: * might in principle be both false and true * admit a method, at least in

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-08 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 , Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: who would vow never to change their views? The religious faithful. By simple logic the answer has to be yes if the following conditions are met. If whenever a traffic jam happens the sun goes down and whenever the sun goes

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-08 Thread Stephen P. King
On 3/9/2013 1:01 AM, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 , Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com mailto:whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: who would vow never to change their views? The religious faithful. Dear John, Could you consider the possibility that the religiously faithful

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-08 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: Stephen Hawking can look at someone doing it and eventually figure it out, and then instruct me to do exactly what he says and unclog the toilet. The sad, very sad, fact is that without computers Stephen Hawking couldn't

Re: Comp: Geometry Is A Zombie

2013-03-08 Thread Stephen P. King
On 3/9/2013 1:12 AM, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com mailto:te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: Stephen Hawking can look at someone doing it and eventually figure it out, and then instruct me to do exactly what he says and unclog the toilet.