Re: Determinism - Tricks of the Trade

2013-09-03 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 6:41 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 9/2/2013 8:50 PM, Dennis Ochei wrote: No matter how complex a system is, it can never be complex enough to contain itself, and is therefore unable to perceive itself directly as a deterministic process. Only in the

Re: Determinism - Tricks of the Trade

2013-09-03 Thread Dennis Ochei
this is in line with schopenhauer's views. he was essentially a buddhist. you can want not to want, in which case you cannot will yourself to want to want. you can have and act upon the desire to change your desires, but that doesn't constitute willing what you want. instead, this constitutes just

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-03 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 5:24 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: Free will is related to the issue of determinism -- could a very powerful computer precisely predict my future behaviour? Yes, but only if the computer

Re: Determinism - Tricks of the Trade

2013-09-03 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Dennis Ochei do.infinit...@gmail.com wrote: this is in line with schopenhauer's views. he was essentially a buddhist. you can want not to want, in which case you cannot will yourself to want to want. you can have and act upon the desire to change your desires,

Re: God's God

2013-09-03 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 11:36 PM, Dennis Ochei do.infinit...@gmail.com wrote: I liked it until they were on earth. The human's dialogue is too preachy and cheesy, the preceding parts of the cartoon were fun and more subtle i suppose. I would have probably ended it after God 2 died Agreed. Well,

Re: Leibniz view on why why bottom up control cannot work for the brain

2013-09-03 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 8:41 PM, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: Likewise the self-driving cars on earth Yes. and consciousness on the brain. Maybe :) On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 9:26 AM, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 3:20 PM, Richard Ruquist

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-03 Thread meekerdb
On 9/3/2013 3:48 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 5:24 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: Free will is related to the issue of determinism -- could a very powerful computer precisely predict my future

Re: Determinism - Tricks of the Trade

2013-09-03 Thread meekerdb
On 9/3/2013 3:54 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Dennis Ocheido.infinit...@gmail.com wrote: this is in line with schopenhauer's views. he was essentially a buddhist. you can want not to want, in which case you cannot will yourself to want to want. you can have and act

Re: Question for the QM experts here: quantum uncertainty of the past

2013-09-03 Thread smitra
Yes, that's also my favorite way of thinking about this, you are precisely that what you experience at any one time, and that may well include memories of the past. What was discussed earlier in this thread about decoherence, is only revelevant to explaining why you don't get macroscopic

Re: Is Determinism Falsifiable?

2013-09-03 Thread smitra
I think 't Hooft has argued in some other paper that one should consider the set of possible initial states that the early universe could have been in, which then restricts the freedom of observers today. So, he actually uses this issue to argue why superdeterminsim isn't all that strange, but

Re: Question for the QM experts here: quantum uncertainty of the past

2013-09-03 Thread meekerdb
On 9/3/2013 6:14 AM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote: Yes, that's also my favorite way of thinking about this, you are precisely that what you experience at any one time, and that may well include memories of the past. What was discussed earlier in this thread about decoherence, is only revelevant to

Re: Question for the QM experts here: quantum uncertainty of the past

2013-09-03 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2013/9/3 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net On 9/3/2013 6:14 AM, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote: Yes, that's also my favorite way of thinking about this, you are precisely that what you experience at any one time, and that may well include memories of the past. What was discussed earlier in this thread

Re: Proof of Impossibility Sketch For a Consistent Theory of Everything and a Consistent Metasystem of a Theory of Everything

2013-09-03 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 23 Aug 2013, at 01:21, Ian Mclean wrote: Details on my blog, Radical Computing. The summary is this, we can argue that a Theory of Everything is characterized by either syntactic, negation, or deductive completeness or universal closure. A theory of everything (ToE) or final theory

Re: Is Determinism Falsifiable?

2013-09-03 Thread John Clark
Determinism is not only falsifiable it has been falsified.John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to

Re: Is Determinism Falsifiable?

2013-09-03 Thread meekerdb
On 9/3/2013 9:02 AM, John Clark wrote: Determinism is not only falsifiable it has been falsified. John K Clark Did you read the t'Hooft paper? Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To unsubscribe from this group

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-03 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: If not then my actions could not be predicted because they happened for no reason, they were random. Or because of the halting problem, The halting problem involves predictability not determinism; a Turing Machine is 100%

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-03 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 02 Sep 2013, at 17:24, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: Free will is related to the issue of determinism -- could a very powerful computer precisely predict my future behaviour? Yes, but only if the computer didn't tell me what it

Re: Is Determinism Falsifiable?

2013-09-03 Thread Quentin Anciaux
Since MWI is deterministic, and MWI has not beean falsfied... your statement is wrong. Quentin 2013/9/3 John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com Determinism is not only falsifiable it has been falsified. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-03 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: indeed free does not add much to the will, except to emphasize a local freedom degrees spectrum. It doesn't even do that. Will is the set of things I want to do, but some of those things may not be physically possible,

RE: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-03 Thread Chris de Morsella
I think your position is ridiculous. Evolution has clearly invested a lot of energy into free will, self-awareness, and other qualia that characterize conscious existence. There is evidence of analogous inner mental existence in some other more advanced species on earth - am referring to other

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-03 Thread John Clark
On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 2:31 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: Free will is related to the issue of determinism -- could a very powerful computer precisely predict my future behaviour? Yes, but only if the computer didn't tell me what it predicted beforehand, because then the

Re: Serious proof of why the theory of evolution is wrong

2013-09-03 Thread Bruno Marchal
Hi Richard, I appreciate. That moving was quite a work. It is not even finished, but at least I am reconnected. There is still no quantum algorithm for finding a needle in an haystack with 0 needle, although we might try with with quantum field (annihilation and creation superposition),

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-03 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 12:27 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.comwrote: I think your position is ridiculous. Evolution has clearly invested a lot of energy into “free will” Can not comment, don't know what ASCII sequence free will means. “self-awareness”, and other qualia that

RE: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-03 Thread Chris de Morsella
Hi Chris - I also do not KNOW whether or not I really do have free will. But if I do not have free will evolution has seen fit to evolve a very expensive - in evolutionary terms - illusion of free will in me (it must consume a lot of neural activity in order to develop the illusion in the first

Re: Determinism - Tricks of the Trade

2013-09-03 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Monday, September 2, 2013 11:50:34 PM UTC-4, Dennis Ochei wrote: Hi Craig, I've been following the pattern of thought you've be exhibiting this entire thread, trying to understand why you believe in such a strange way. I would not say that I believe. I have a set of hypotheses which I

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-03 Thread Chris de Morsella
  From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2013 10:43 AM Subject: Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test? On 9/3/2013 9:27 AM, Chris de Morsella wrote: Evolution did not go through all

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-03 Thread meekerdb
On 9/3/2013 9:27 AM, Chris de Morsella wrote: Evolution did not go through all the trouble and to expend all the energy our species expends on creating this sensation within ourselves -- whether it is actually real or an elaborate (and evolutionarily costly adaptation) to carefully create this

Re: Determinism - Tricks of the Trade

2013-09-03 Thread Dennis Ochei
What specifically do you claim that I am ignorant about? You misunderstood my intentions. I'm not trying to insult you or say that you are lacking knowledge. I'm saying that the appearance of free will and qualia can be explained in terms of ignorance of a system to the full details of its

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-03 Thread Chris de Morsella
From: John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2013 10:03 AM Subject: Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test? On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 12:27 PM, Chris de Morsella cdemorse...@yahoo.com wrote:

Re: Is Determinism Falsifiable?

2013-09-03 Thread Craig Weinberg
Is MWI falsifiable? On Tuesday, September 3, 2013 12:22:29 PM UTC-4, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Since MWI is deterministic, and MWI has not beean falsfied... your statement is wrong. Quentin 2013/9/3 John Clark johnk...@gmail.com javascript: Determinism is not only falsifiable it has been

Re: Determinism - Tricks of the Trade

2013-09-03 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, September 3, 2013 3:12:17 PM UTC-4, Dennis Ochei wrote: What specifically do you claim that I am ignorant about? You misunderstood my intentions. I'm not trying to insult you or say that you are lacking knowledge. That wasn't clear in your wording: In all cases it seems to

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-03 Thread Dennis Ochei
Of course it didn't. In order to avoid the impression of free will evolution would have had to provide us with conscious perception of the working of our brain. This would not only have been expensive in biological resources and totally unnecessary to our survival, I want to add that this

Re: Determinism - Tricks of the Trade

2013-09-03 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, September 3, 2013 12:41:09 AM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 9/2/2013 8:50 PM, Dennis Ochei wrote: No matter how complex a system is, it can never be complex enough to contain itself, and is therefore unable to perceive itself directly as a deterministic process. Only in the

Re: Determinism - Tricks of the Trade

2013-09-03 Thread Craig Weinberg
It's a sleight of hand because it assumes a single self on a single level which does the wanting and the willing and the discerning between the two. On Tuesday, September 3, 2013 6:54:46 AM UTC-4, telmo_menezes wrote: On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Dennis Ochei

Re: Determinism - Tricks of the Trade

2013-09-03 Thread Dennis Ochei
Telmo and Brent, The Humean quote sums it up nicely. You can think of a human as a collection of desires and a reasoning process that arbitrates between and attempts to realize them. In the process of reasoning, one might bring about new desires, but reasoning is always employed by desires one

Re: Determinism - Tricks of the Trade

2013-09-03 Thread Craig Weinberg
Desire is inherently illogical. Which is precisely why no appearance of free will or qualia can be generated quantitatively. Logic is a lowest common denominator of sense. It is sense attempting to negate itself to the extent that it can. It's a skeletal generalization of sense-like tropes.

Re: Determinism - Tricks of the Trade

2013-09-03 Thread meekerdb
On 9/3/2013 12:32 PM, Dennis Ochei wrote: Telmo and Brent, The Humean quote sums it up nicely. You can think of a human as a collection of desires and a reasoning process that arbitrates between and attempts to realize them. In the process of reasoning, one might bring about new desires, but

Re: Determinism - Tricks of the Trade

2013-09-03 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, September 3, 2013 3:42:53 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 9/3/2013 12:32 PM, Dennis Ochei wrote: Telmo and Brent, The Humean quote sums it up nicely. You can think of a human as a collection of desires and a reasoning process that arbitrates between and attempts to realize

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-03 Thread meekerdb
On 9/3/2013 10:54 AM, Chris de Morsella wrote: *From:* meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com *Sent:* Tuesday, September 3, 2013 10:43 AM *Subject:* Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test? On 9/3/2013 9:27 AM, Chris de Morsella wrote: Evolution did not go

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-03 Thread Chris de Morsella
From: Dennis Ochei do.infinit...@gmail.com To: everything-list@googlegroups.com everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2013 12:38 PM Subject: Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test? Of course it didn't.  In order to avoid the

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-03 Thread Chris de Morsella
By the way the brain produces high fidelity illusions for us most of our waking lives. For example the way we perceive our sight is very different from the intermittent stream of neural signals that begin their journey from our retinas. Did you know that every time you shift your eyes from one

Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?

2013-09-03 Thread meekerdb
On 9/3/2013 3:43 PM, Chris de Morsella wrote: By the way the brain produces high fidelity illusions for us most of our waking lives. For example the way we perceive our sight is very different from the intermittent stream of neural signals that begin their journey from our retinas. Did you know

Re: Determinism - Tricks of the Trade

2013-09-03 Thread Dennis Ochei
Craig, What UV looks like will depend on how it is transduced into the nervous system. I could add a new opsin into your blue cones and it would appear to be a shade of blue. Or, I could achieve the transduction in such a way that UV doesn't confuse with blue. In which case UV will look different

Re: Determinism - Tricks of the Trade

2013-09-03 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Tuesday, September 3, 2013 8:57:13 PM UTC-4, Dennis Ochei wrote: Craig, What UV looks like will depend on how it is transduced into the nervous system. I could add a new opsin into your blue cones and it would appear to be a shade of blue. Sure, we can look at an infra-red camera

Re: Determinism - Tricks of the Trade

2013-09-03 Thread Dennis Ochei
1) rationality (logic) in this case is to mean founded on justified principles. This is inherently a normative judgment. the principles that govern a deterministic system needn't appeal to our psychology as justified, this is what i mean by determined doesn't mean logical. none of my desires seem