Re: Unexpected Hanging

2013-09-25 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 24 Sep 2013, at 20:42, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, September 23, 2013 4:53:49 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 Sep 2013, at 20:49, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, September 23, 2013 2:21:20 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 Sep 2013, at 05:43, Craig Weinberg wrote: I

Re: How PIP solves the hard problem of consciousness

2013-09-25 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 24 Sep 2013, at 20:58, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, September 23, 2013 1:16:08 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: shape belongs to the category of numbers imagination, and with comp this is given by arithmetical relations. Numbers imagination seem like human imagination to me.

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-09-25 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 24 Sep 2013, at 19:57, John Clark wrote: On 23 Sep 2013, at 03:16, Russell Standish wrote: John, for the sake of the rest of us, it would be useful for you to summarise just what the problems were that you found with the first three steps. In other words will I pretend that the

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-09-25 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 25 Sep 2013, at 05:44, LizR wrote: On 25 September 2013 15:41, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 9/24/2013 6:32 PM, LizR wrote: On 25 September 2013 13:38, Russell Standish li...@hpcoders.com.au wrote: This is also true of materialism. Whether you think this is a problem or not

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-09-25 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 25 Sep 2013, at 06:39, meekerdb wrote: On 9/24/2013 9:21 PM, LizR wrote: On 25 September 2013 16:03, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 9/24/2013 8:44 PM, LizR wrote: On 25 September 2013 15:41, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 9/24/2013 6:32 PM, LizR wrote: On 25 September

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-09-25 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 25 Sep 2013, at 07:43, meekerdb wrote: On 9/24/2013 9:45 PM, LizR wrote: On 25 September 2013 16:39, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: Right. Idle isn't exactly the right word. I think that like life consciousness will be seen to be different things andthere will be

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-09-25 Thread David Nyman
On 25 September 2013 05:03, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: We will have learned what emotions and feelings are at the level of sensors and computation and action. And when we have done that 'the hard problem' will be seen to have been an idle question - like What is life. proved to be

Re: Unexpected Hanging

2013-09-25 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, September 25, 2013 2:52:55 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 24 Sep 2013, at 20:42, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, September 23, 2013 4:53:49 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 23 Sep 2013, at 20:49, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, September 23, 2013 2:21:20 PM

Re: How PIP solves the hard problem of consciousness

2013-09-25 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, September 25, 2013 2:58:25 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 24 Sep 2013, at 20:58, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, September 23, 2013 1:16:08 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: shape belongs to the category of numbers imagination, and with comp this is given by

Re: Unexpected Hanging

2013-09-25 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 7:49 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 23 Sep 2013, at 12:41, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sat, Sep 21, 2013 at 9:43 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 21 Sep 2013, at 15:10, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 3:58 PM, Bruno Marchal

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-09-25 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 25 Sep 2013, at 13:40, David Nyman wrote: On 25 September 2013 05:03, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: We will have learned what emotions and feelings are at the level of sensors and computation and action. And when we have done that 'the hard problem' will be seen to have been an

Re: How PIP solves the hard problem of consciousness

2013-09-25 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 25 Sep 2013, at 14:40, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, September 25, 2013 2:58:25 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 24 Sep 2013, at 20:58, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, September 23, 2013 1:16:08 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: shape belongs to the category of numbers

Re: How PIP solves the hard problem of consciousness

2013-09-25 Thread Richard Ruquist
Bruno: Imagined by people supported by infinities of computations. But the imagination is reduced itself to arithmetical relations (even finite one, now), so it is a monism. Richard: Are you saying that without people there cannot be comp? I would prefer a more cosmic machine as in

Re: Unexpected Hanging

2013-09-25 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 25 Sep 2013, at 15:50, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 7:49 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 23 Sep 2013, at 12:41, Telmo Menezes wrote: snip Thus your interest in near-death experiences? Yes. And in all extreme altered state of consciousness. Those

Re: How PIP solves the hard problem of consciousness

2013-09-25 Thread Bruno Marchal
Hi Richard, On 25 Sep 2013, at 16:29, Richard Ruquist wrote: Bruno: Imagined by people supported by infinities of computations. But the imagination is reduced itself to arithmetical relations (even finite one, now), so it is a monism. Richard: Are you saying that without people there

Re: Scientists claim discovery of life coming to Earth from space

2013-09-25 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 9:16 PM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Telmo, thanks for your effort of replying. However... (there is always one): You haven't seen ALL and the BEST robots, have you? I admit my ignorance, of course. Batteries are some primitive gadgets for a starting line of

Re: Scientists claim discovery of life coming to Earth from space

2013-09-25 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 9:43 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 9/23/2013 12:16 PM, John Mikes wrote: Why do you hold 'computational resources' as fundamental to being alive? Computation is a human mental peculiarity - an 'evolved resource' by 'being alive' (whatever that means).

Re: Scientists claim discovery of life coming to Earth from space

2013-09-25 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 6:45 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 9/23/2013 3:00 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sun, Sep 22, 2013 at 12:11 AM, John Mikesjami...@gmail.com wrote: Telmo: would you have (by any chance...) a brief identification of something that comes to your mind

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-09-25 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 6:54 PM, Russell Standish li...@hpcoders.com.auwrote: I know not of these hundreds of posts that you speak. You don't?? If you haven't read any of the hundreds of posts I have written about Bruno's proof (far more than the silly thing deserves) then there seems no

Re: How PIP solves the hard problem of consciousness

2013-09-25 Thread Richard Ruquist
You are saying there is no cosmos without people??? Well anyway you pointed out the arithmetic and logic necessary for the cosmos to evolve people and I thank you for that. On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 11:03 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Hi Richard, On 25 Sep 2013, at 16:29,

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-09-25 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: The first person indeterminacy is a ten lines reasoning, usually considered as rather obvious. And it's the obvious stuff that has destroyed many a mathematical proof or philosophical edifice. You make a big deal about duplicating

Re: Scientists claim discovery of life coming to Earth from space

2013-09-25 Thread Chris de Morsella
A cell's ribosome computes. it receives input setsĀ of mRNA and uses these to assemble specific amino acid chains. Change the input mRNA and you get a different foldedĀ protein chain as the product. From: Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com To:

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-09-25 Thread meekerdb
On 9/25/2013 4:40 AM, David Nyman wrote: On 25 September 2013 05:03, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: We will have learned what emotions and feelings are at the level of sensors and computation and action. And when we have done that 'the hard problem' will be seen to have been an idle

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-09-25 Thread David Nyman
On 25 September 2013 15:01, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: I agree. It is in that sense that we can say that modern biophysics makes vitalism irrelevant. (I am actually arguing that computationalism makes materialism irrelevant in that same sense). Yes, I see that. Of course the

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-09-25 Thread Alberto G. Corona
2013/9/20 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be On 20 Sep 2013, at 11:46, chris peck wrote: Hi Bruno Im not all that wrapped by Popper's method possibly because I have a background in the soft sciences where I think it is much harder to devise falsifiable statements. Other minds being

Re: Scientists claim discovery of life coming to Earth from space

2013-09-25 Thread meekerdb
On 9/25/2013 8:54 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 6:45 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 9/23/2013 3:00 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sun, Sep 22, 2013 at 12:11 AM, John Mikesjami...@gmail.com wrote: Telmo: would you have (by any chance...) a brief identification of

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-09-25 Thread meekerdb
On 9/25/2013 10:06 AM, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: The first person indeterminacy is a ten lines reasoning, usually considered as rather obvious. And it's the obvious stuff that has destroyed many a

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-09-25 Thread David Nyman
On 25 September 2013 19:42, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: I'd say the standard riposte is that the first person facts (qualia?) are just inherent in the 3p model. There is feeling that goes with certain kinds of information processing (e.g. creating a personal narrative). This is

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-09-25 Thread meekerdb
On 9/25/2013 11:51 AM, David Nyman wrote: On 25 September 2013 15:01, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: I agree. It is in that sense that we can say that modern biophysics makes vitalism irrelevant. (I am actually arguing that computationalism makes materialism irrelevant in that same

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-09-25 Thread John Mikes
Let us start at the end: David's conclusion upon Brent's ()remark: ... * The advantage of looking at a circle of 'reductions' NUMBERS - MACHINE DREAMS - PHYSICAL - HUMANS - PHYSICS - NUMBERS. is that it cautions one against this kind fundamentalism. Shall we take

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-09-25 Thread meekerdb
On 9/25/2013 12:42 PM, David Nyman wrote: On 25 September 2013 19:42, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: I'd say the standard riposte is that the first person facts (qualia?) are just inherent in the 3p model. There is feeling that goes with certain kinds of information processing (e.g.

Re: How PIP solves the hard problem of consciousness

2013-09-25 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, September 25, 2013 12:53:19 PM UTC-4, yanniru wrote: You are saying there is no cosmos without people??? Well anyway you pointed out the arithmetic and logic necessary for the cosmos to evolve people and I thank you for that. I think that Bruno uses 'people' in a futuristic

Re: How PIP solves the hard problem of consciousness

2013-09-25 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, September 25, 2013 10:16:45 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Sep 2013, at 14:40, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, September 25, 2013 2:58:25 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 24 Sep 2013, at 20:58, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Monday, September 23, 2013 1:16:08 PM

Re: Unexpected Hanging

2013-09-25 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 25 Sep 2013, at 15:50, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 7:49 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 23 Sep 2013, at 12:41, Telmo Menezes wrote: snip Thus your interest in near-death

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-09-25 Thread David Nyman
On 25 September 2013 21:49, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: You making up opinions for reductive materialists. I don't know any who think money or love aren't real. And in fact it's not at all clear what 'materialism' means, except in contrast to 'idealism'. It is physicists like

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-09-25 Thread David Nyman
On 25 September 2013 21:23, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: There seems to be a lot self-congratulatory bashing of reductive materialism on this list without noticing that it has provided all the knowledge of advanced science, while metaphysical Platonism has provided speculation.

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-09-25 Thread LizR
On 26 September 2013 08:23, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: There seems to be a lot self-congratulatory bashing of reductive materialism on this list without noticing that it has provided all the knowledge of advanced science, while metaphysical Platonism has provided speculation. I

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-09-25 Thread Russell Standish
On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 12:38:47PM -0400, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 6:54 PM, Russell Standish li...@hpcoders.com.auwrote: I know not of these hundreds of posts that you speak. You don't?? If you haven't read any of the hundreds of posts I have written about Bruno's

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-09-25 Thread David Nyman
On 25 September 2013 21:31, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: I feel Bruno does not 'depart' from agnosticism: he remarked several time to be 'even more' agnostic than myself (a confessed all-agnostic). He just feels awe for his Platonistic base to adore numbers (especially the primes). I

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-09-25 Thread meekerdb
On 9/25/2013 2:57 PM, LizR wrote: On 26 September 2013 08:23, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: There seems to be a lot self-congratulatory bashing of reductive materialism on this list without noticing that it has provided all the knowledge of advanced

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-09-25 Thread LizR
On 26 September 2013 10:56, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 9/25/2013 2:57 PM, LizR wrote: On 26 September 2013 08:23, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: There seems to be a lot self-congratulatory bashing of reductive materialism on this list without noticing that it has

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-09-25 Thread Russell Standish
On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 08:46:25AM +1000, Russell Standish wrote: On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 12:38:47PM -0400, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 6:54 PM, Russell Standish li...@hpcoders.com.auwrote: I know not of these hundreds of posts that you speak. You don't?? If you

RE: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-09-25 Thread chris peck
I'll have a pop at this because I have a problem too. I get stuck on Bruno's 'proof' at the point where the comp practitioner, about to be duplicated and sent to Washington and Moscow, is asked to estimate his chances of arriving at Moscow. Allegedly I should feel it to be 50/50 and this

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-09-25 Thread Russell Standish
On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 02:34:10AM +, chris peck wrote: I'll have a pop at this because I have a problem too. I get stuck on Bruno's 'proof' at the point where the comp practitioner, about to be duplicated and sent to Washington and Moscow, is asked to estimate his chances of arriving

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-09-25 Thread meekerdb
On 9/25/2013 7:34 PM, chris peck wrote: I'll have a pop at this because I have a problem too. I get stuck on Bruno's 'proof' at the point where the comp practitioner, about to be duplicated and sent to Washington and Moscow, is asked to estimate his chances of arriving at Moscow. Allegedly I

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-09-25 Thread LizR
Anyone who has a problem with Bruno's teleportation thought experiment should logically have the same problem with the MWI. If for the sake of argument I use a quantum event to decide whether to get on a plane to Moscow or Washington, then my diary will contain one or the other destination - in

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-09-25 Thread meekerdb
On 9/25/2013 8:37 PM, LizR wrote: Anyone who has a problem with Bruno's teleportation thought experiment should logically have the same problem with the MWI. If for the sake of argument I use a quantum event to decide whether to get on a plane to Moscow or Washington, then my diary will contain

RE: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-09-25 Thread chris peck
Hi Liz Interesting. There's another thought experiment, or gambit, MWIers raise involving quantum immortality. In this, some quantum event at time t triggers a gun to shoot (or not shoot) the MWIer. Traditionally, MWIers argue the only reason they would not take the gambit is because they

Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

2013-09-25 Thread meekerdb
On 9/25/2013 10:27 PM, chris peck wrote: Hi Liz Interesting. There's another thought experiment, or gambit, MWIers raise involving quantum immortality. In this, some quantum event at time t triggers a gun to shoot (or not shoot) the MWIer. Traditionally, MWIers argue the only reason they