Re: The Panopticon: QM and Relativity

2013-10-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Oct 2013, at 11:46, Stephen Lin wrote: A quote I got somewhere: Understanding that the world is a Panopticon is the easy part; the hard part is figuring out whether you're on the inside looking out or the outside looking in. Anyone have any thoughts? :) Personally, I find it

Re: For John Clark

2013-10-18 Thread Jason Resch
On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 8:04 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 18 October 2013 13:42, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: The basis problem is no different from the present problem under special relativity: If we exist in many times across space time, why do we find ourselves in this

Re: For John Clark

2013-10-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 18 Oct 2013, at 04:48, chris peck wrote: The uncertainty is objective How can uncertainty be objective Bruno? By being (provably) the same for all possible experimenters. Examples: comp, QM. Uncertainty is a predicate applicable to experiences only. Yes, but it can be said

Re: For John Clark

2013-10-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 18 Oct 2013, at 04:04, chris peck wrote: Hi Jason Subject refers to the I, the indexical first-person. The word 'I' is indexical, like 'now' and 'here'. The experience isn't indexical, its just me. 'me' is also an indexical. Both the 3-me, and, more indirectly though, the 1-me.

Re: For John Clark

2013-10-18 Thread Jason Resch
On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 9:04 PM, chris peck chris_peck...@hotmail.comwrote: Hi Jason * Subject refers to the I, the indexical first-person. * The word 'I' is indexical, like 'now' and 'here'. The experience isn't indexical, its just me. Right but when you refer to the experience or

Re: For John Clark

2013-10-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 18 Oct 2013, at 04:17, LizR wrote: On 18 October 2013 15:04, chris peck chris_peck...@hotmail.com wrote: Immediately after teleportation there will be uncertainty because you are no longer sure of your location but are sure that you have been duplicated and sent to one place or the

Re: For John Clark

2013-10-18 Thread Jason Resch
*On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 10:03 PM*, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 10/17/2013 6:04 PM, LizR wrote: On 18 October 2013 13:42, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: The basis problem is no different from the present problem under special relativity: If we exist in many times

Re: For John Clark

2013-10-18 Thread Jason Resch
On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 10:27 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 10/17/2013 5:42 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 6:23 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 10/16/2013 11:55 PM, Jason Resch wrote: I see your reference and raise you a reference back to

Re: For John Clark

2013-10-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 18 Oct 2013, at 01:23, meekerdb wrote: On 10/16/2013 11:55 PM, Jason Resch wrote: I see your reference and raise you a reference back to section 4.1 of http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0312136 From the paper: What of the crucial question: should Alice1 feel uncertain? Why, Alice1 is a

Re: The probability problem in Everettian quantum mechanics

2013-10-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 17 Oct 2013, at 00:49, LizR wrote: By the way, my son (14) asked me the other day what's the oddest prime number? Fortunately, I got the right answer! I would say 2. LOL Was it 2 that you found? To be odd is very subjective here :) Bruno -- You received this message because you

Re: Human Thought Can Voluntarily Control Neurons in Brain

2013-10-18 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On 18 October 2013 12:24, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: The decision to go to the store, A, is associated with certain brain processes, and the getting in the car and driving to the store, B, is associated with different brain processes. The brain processes associated with A

Re: Human Thought Can Voluntarily Control Neurons in Brain

2013-10-18 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, October 18, 2013 9:23:19 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On 18 October 2013 12:24, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript: wrote: The decision to go to the store, A, is associated with certain brain processes, and the getting in the car and driving to the store, B, is

Re: Human Thought Can Voluntarily Control Neurons in Brain

2013-10-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 18 Oct 2013, at 15:23, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 18 October 2013 12:24, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: The decision to go to the store, A, is associated with certain brain processes, and the getting in the car and driving to the store, B, is associated with different

Re: For John Clark

2013-10-18 Thread meekerdb
On 10/18/2013 12:26 AM, Jason Resch wrote: *On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 10:03 PM*, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 10/17/2013 6:04 PM, LizR wrote: On 18 October 2013 13:42, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com wrote:

Re: For John Clark

2013-10-18 Thread meekerdb
On 10/18/2013 12:42 AM, Jason Resch wrote: But that's not compatible with Bruno's idea of eliminating the physical - at least not unless he can solve the basis problem. Could you do me a favor and explain what the basis problem is in a way that a 6th grader could understand? I've

Re: For John Clark

2013-10-18 Thread meekerdb
On 10/18/2013 12:48 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 18 Oct 2013, at 01:23, meekerdb wrote: On 10/16/2013 11:55 PM, Jason Resch wrote: I see your reference and raise you a reference back to section 4.1 of http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0312136 From the paper: What of the crucial

Re: For John Clark

2013-10-18 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2013/10/18 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net On 10/18/2013 12:48 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 18 Oct 2013, at 01:23, meekerdb wrote: On 10/16/2013 11:55 PM, Jason Resch wrote: I see your reference and raise you a reference back to section 4.1 of http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0312136

Re: For John Clark

2013-10-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 18 Oct 2013, at 18:55, meekerdb wrote: On 10/18/2013 12:48 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 18 Oct 2013, at 01:23, meekerdb wrote: On 10/16/2013 11:55 PM, Jason Resch wrote: I see your reference and raise you a reference back to section 4.1 of http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0312136 From

Re: For John Clark

2013-10-18 Thread meekerdb
On 10/18/2013 10:48 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/10/18 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net On 10/18/2013 12:48 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 18 Oct 2013, at 01:23, meekerdb wrote: On 10/16/2013 11:55 PM, Jason Resch wrote: I see your reference

Re: For John Clark

2013-10-18 Thread meekerdb
On 10/18/2013 11:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 18 Oct 2013, at 18:55, meekerdb wrote: On 10/18/2013 12:48 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 18 Oct 2013, at 01:23, meekerdb wrote: On 10/16/2013 11:55 PM, Jason Resch wrote: I see your reference and raise you a reference back to section 4.1

Re: For John Clark

2013-10-18 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2013/10/18 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net On 10/18/2013 10:48 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/10/18 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net On 10/18/2013 12:48 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 18 Oct 2013, at 01:23, meekerdb wrote: On 10/16/2013 11:55 PM, Jason Resch wrote: I see your

Re: For John Clark

2013-10-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 18 Oct 2013, at 19:48, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2013/10/18 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net On 10/18/2013 12:48 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 18 Oct 2013, at 01:23, meekerdb wrote: On 10/16/2013 11:55 PM, Jason Resch wrote: I see your reference and raise you a reference back to section

Re: For John Clark

2013-10-18 Thread meekerdb
On 10/18/2013 11:45 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: The key result is that incompleteness makes the Theaetetus' definition of knowledge (the only one I know capable of doing justice to the metaphysical antic dream argument) given a classical theory of knowledge (S4Grz) which X1* is an important

Re: Human Thought Can Voluntarily Control Neurons in Brain

2013-10-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 18 Oct 2013, at 18:03, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, October 18, 2013 10:34:14 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 18 Oct 2013, at 15:23, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 18 October 2013 12:24, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com wrote: The decision to go to the store, A, is associated

Re: Human Thought Can Voluntarily Control Neurons in Brain

2013-10-18 Thread meekerdb
On 10/18/2013 12:22 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Of course we can see only one process, as we cannot feel the differentiation of the computations supporting us. Neither can computations feel us. Sure. Computations are not of the same type as person. A computation cannot no more

Re: Human Thought Can Voluntarily Control Neurons in Brain

2013-10-18 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, October 18, 2013 3:22:08 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 18 Oct 2013, at 18:03, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, October 18, 2013 10:34:14 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 18 Oct 2013, at 15:23, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 18 October 2013 12:24, Craig Weinberg

Re: For John Clark

2013-10-18 Thread Jason Resch
On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 11:23 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 10/18/2013 12:18 AM, Jason Resch wrote: Note: I do believe we experience all possible outcomes, and you can even say in truth there is only one I In your theory a person is a chain of experiences, so different chain

Re: For John Clark

2013-10-18 Thread Jason Resch
On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 11:27 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 10/18/2013 12:26 AM, Jason Resch wrote: *On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 10:03 PM*, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 10/17/2013 6:04 PM, LizR wrote: On 18 October 2013 13:42, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com

Re: For John Clark

2013-10-18 Thread Jason Resch
On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 11:37 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 10/18/2013 12:42 AM, Jason Resch wrote: But that's not compatible with Bruno's idea of eliminating the physical - at least not unless he can solve the basis problem. Could you do me a favor and explain what the

Re: Human Thought Can Voluntarily Control Neurons in Brain

2013-10-18 Thread John Mikes
Bruno: what is a person? (according to the US Supreme Court lately: a Corporation, but I don't buy that) How can a Turing Machine EMULATE something different from it? (I know very little about the T.M.: is it infinite?) You wrote: ...*we (our souls) are in touch with the infinite...* Is a person

An old White Rabbit attempted solution - set to music

2013-10-18 Thread Gabriel Bodeen
Greetings, I came here after reading and being intrigued by Russell Standish's book. I just thought I'd share one bit of fun before I go into lurker mode. It's a little ditty about Kant's philosophy. I remembered it after reading the book because it sounds very similar to some of the

Re: And the 2013 Nobel Prize in Physics goes to…

2013-10-18 Thread John Mikes
John, thanks for the info, useful, because not having ever run the danger of being assaulted by a Nobel Prize, I did not study their in depth history. HOWEVER: in my sentence I meant: the FIRST ONE when he made up his original listing (in the ORIGINAL list), not *later on added* 'as first

Re: Human Thought Can Voluntarily Control Neurons in Brain

2013-10-18 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, October 18, 2013 5:02:26 PM UTC-4, JohnM wrote: Bruno: what is a person? (according to the US Supreme Court lately: a Corporation, but I don't buy that) How can a Turing Machine EMULATE something different from it? (I know very little about the T.M.: is it infinite?) You

Re: For John Clark

2013-10-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 18 Oct 2013, at 20:41, meekerdb wrote: On 10/18/2013 11:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 18 Oct 2013, at 18:55, meekerdb wrote: On 10/18/2013 12:48 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 18 Oct 2013, at 01:23, meekerdb wrote: On 10/16/2013 11:55 PM, Jason Resch wrote: I see your reference and

Re: For John Clark

2013-10-18 Thread meekerdb
On 10/18/2013 1:29 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 11:23 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 10/18/2013 12:18 AM, Jason Resch wrote: Note: I do believe we experience all possible outcomes, and you can even say in truth there

Re: Human Thought Can Voluntarily Control Neurons in Brain

2013-10-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 18 Oct 2013, at 21:44, meekerdb wrote: On 10/18/2013 12:22 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Of course we can see only one process, as we cannot feel the differentiation of the computations supporting us. Neither can computations feel us. Sure. Computations are not of the same type as

Re: For John Clark

2013-10-18 Thread meekerdb
On 10/18/2013 1:38 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 11:27 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 10/18/2013 12:26 AM, Jason Resch wrote: *On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 10:03 PM*, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net

Re: Human Thought Can Voluntarily Control Neurons in Brain

2013-10-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 18 Oct 2013, at 22:09, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, October 18, 2013 3:22:08 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 18 Oct 2013, at 18:03, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, October 18, 2013 10:34:14 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 18 Oct 2013, at 15:23, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:

Re: For John Clark

2013-10-18 Thread meekerdb
On 10/18/2013 1:45 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 11:37 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 10/18/2013 12:42 AM, Jason Resch wrote: But that's not compatible with Bruno's idea of eliminating the physical - at

Re: For John Clark

2013-10-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 18 Oct 2013, at 22:45, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 11:37 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 10/18/2013 12:42 AM, Jason Resch wrote: But that's not compatible with Bruno's idea of eliminating the physical - at least not unless he can solve the basis problem.

Re: Human Thought Can Voluntarily Control Neurons in Brain

2013-10-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 18 Oct 2013, at 23:02, John Mikes wrote: Bruno: what is a person? (according to the US Supreme Court lately: a Corporation, but I don't buy that) You are right. Making a corporation into a person is a total shameful superdangerous idea (for our human rights). A person is an abstract

Re: Human Thought Can Voluntarily Control Neurons in Brain

2013-10-18 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Friday, October 18, 2013 7:06:35 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 18 Oct 2013, at 22:09, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, October 18, 2013 3:22:08 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 18 Oct 2013, at 18:03, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, October 18, 2013 10:34:14 AM UTC-4, Bruno

Seth Lloyd on Free Will

2013-10-18 Thread meekerdb
Seth Lloyd addresses the 'free will' question: Abstract: Before Alan Turing made his crucial contributions to the the ory of computation, he studied the question of whether quantum mechanics could t hrow light on the nature of free will. This article investigates the roles of quantum mechanics

Re: For John Clark

2013-10-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 19 Oct 2013, at 00:34, meekerdb wrote: On 10/18/2013 1:29 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 11:23 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 10/18/2013 12:18 AM, Jason Resch wrote: Note: I do believe we experience all possible outcomes, and you can even say in truth

Re: For John Clark

2013-10-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 19 Oct 2013, at 00:56, meekerdb wrote: On 10/18/2013 1:38 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 11:27 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 10/18/2013 12:26 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 10:03 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On

Re: For John Clark

2013-10-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 19 Oct 2013, at 01:09, meekerdb wrote: On 10/18/2013 1:45 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 11:37 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 10/18/2013 12:42 AM, Jason Resch wrote: But that's not compatible with Bruno's idea of eliminating the physical - at least

Re: Seth Lloyd on Free Will

2013-10-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
Nothing new here. I agree with Seyh Lloyd. Popper and others proposed this, and it is the explanation that I have constantly provided for free will on this list. It is the self-indeterminacy due to self- reference limitations. Careful to not confusing that self- indeterminacy (which relies

Re: For John Clark

2013-10-18 Thread meekerdb
On 10/18/2013 9:49 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 19 Oct 2013, at 00:34, meekerdb wrote: On 10/18/2013 1:29 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 11:23 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 10/18/2013 12:18 AM, Jason Resch wrote: Note: I

Re: Human Thought Can Voluntarily Control Neurons in Brain

2013-10-18 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 19 Oct 2013, at 03:26, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, October 18, 2013 7:06:35 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 18 Oct 2013, at 22:09, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Friday, October 18, 2013 3:22:08 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 18 Oct 2013, at 18:03, Craig Weinberg wrote: On