Re: Step 3

2013-10-30 Thread Jason Resch
On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 10:25 PM, chris peck chris_peck...@hotmail.comwrote: Hi Jason (again) in your response to Brent: * Personally I believe no theory that aims to attach persons to one psychological or physiological continuity can be successful.* ok, but in Bruno's step 3 it is taken

RE: Universe from Pixels?

2013-10-30 Thread Chris de Morsella
Bruno ~ I believe Quantum loop gravity depends on a fine grain structure existing in spacetime. These results would seem to falsify it therefore. Spacetime on the very small scale appears to be smoothly continuous. I would like to see these results reconfirmed though; not casting doubt on the

Re: String theory and superconductors and classical liquids...

2013-10-30 Thread Bruno Marchal
Hi Richard , I do not use religion in a pejorative sense. Actually I am a Hindu. (At least I was until I got kicked out of the Muktananda Ashram) And so I am religiously in agreement with physical reality being an illusion. Interesting. However, I am also a physicist and my string

Re: Neural activity in the brain is harder to disrupt when we are aware of it

2013-10-30 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 29 Oct 2013, at 19:15, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, October 29, 2013 1:01:25 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 29 Oct 2013, at 16:17, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, October 29, 2013 10:56:44 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 29 Oct 2013, at 14:23, Craig Weinberg wrote:

Re: Leibniz's platonism and the false problem of reductionism in mind and quantum theory

2013-10-30 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 29 Oct 2013, at 12:09, Richard Ruquist wrote: Roger, Having just learned a thing or two from Bruno, it strikes me that Leibniz monads are Aristotelian rather than Platonic just like my string cosmology. Richard Exactly. Leibniz, in some text (but not in all) makes a come back to

Re: Step 3

2013-10-30 Thread LizR
On 30 October 2013 19:03, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: My point was only that the traditional notions of personal identity: saying this person is that one particular continuation of that biological organism, or of that one brain, do not work. They fail in cases of fusion,

Re: Neuroscientists discover new 'mini-neural computer' in the brain

2013-10-30 Thread Telmo Menezes
On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 2:51 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 10/29/2013 4:17 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: But this is how I see the concept of Übermensch. The idea got horribly distorted by subsequent political events. The ideal of Übermensch is a human that transcends the illusion

Re: Step 3

2013-10-30 Thread Jason Resch
On Oct 30, 2013, at 4:31 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 30 October 2013 19:03, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: My point was only that the traditional notions of personal identity: saying this person is that one particular continuation of that biological organism, or of that

Re: Dialetheism

2013-10-30 Thread Platonist Guitar Cowboy
On Sun, Oct 27, 2013 at 6:47 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 27 Oct 2013, at 13:36, Craig Weinberg wrote: there is great value in a way to access experience which pretends that it is not pretending. This is quanta and arithmetic truth. I would say that is different. It is

Re: Neuroscientists discover new 'mini-neural computer' in the brain

2013-10-30 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 29 Oct 2013, at 19:53, meekerdb wrote: On 10/29/2013 9:27 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Depressingly, until the middle of the XX century there was no general consensus that all human beings are people with equal rights. That's a very recent idea, indeed. It's so recent that it's well

Re: If human beings are nothing more than matter, why are you conscious as yourself?

2013-10-30 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 11:35:57 AM UTC-4, yanniru wrote: Richard: Here are a few quotes from http://www.sciencemeetsreligion.org/physics/multiverse.php that indicate that the current discussion of quantum physics, string physics and cosmology is really all about whether or not

Re: Step 3

2013-10-30 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 29 Oct 2013, at 20:06, meekerdb wrote: On 10/29/2013 8:19 AM, Jason Resch wrote: Chris, Perhaps it is simpler to think about first person indeterminacy like this (it requires some familiaraity with programming, but I will try to elaborate those details): Imagine there is a conscious

Re: Neuroscientists discover new 'mini-neural computer' in the brain

2013-10-30 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 7:05:47 AM UTC-4, telmo_menezes wrote: On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 2:51 AM, meekerdb meek...@verizon.netjavascript: wrote: On 10/29/2013 4:17 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: But this is how I see the concept of Übermensch. The idea got horribly distorted by

RE: Douglas Hofstadter Article

2013-10-30 Thread Chris de Morsella
-Original Message- From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Telmo Menezes Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 8:50 AM To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Douglas Hofstadter Article On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 5:34 AM, Chris de

Re: If human beings are nothing more than matter, why are you conscious as yourself?

2013-10-30 Thread Richard Ruquist
For me your philosophy is un-understandable poetry. Now that I finally have some understanding of the import of Bruno's comp perhaps I should try to understand your concept of sense. Richard On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: On Wednesday, October

Re: For John Clark

2013-10-30 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 2:05 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: Bruno asked me Do you think that you die in a self-duplication experience? and I said that depends on what the meaning of you is. Bruno responded with We have already agree that you concerns the guy(s) who will

Re: Step 3

2013-10-30 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 29 Oct 2013, at 21:41, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 2:06 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 10/29/2013 8:19 AM, Jason Resch wrote: Chris, Perhaps it is simpler to think about first person indeterminacy like this (it requires some familiaraity with

Re: Neural activity in the brain is harder to disrupt when we are aware of it

2013-10-30 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 4:52:49 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 29 Oct 2013, at 19:15, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, October 29, 2013 1:01:25 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 29 Oct 2013, at 16:17, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, October 29, 2013 10:56:44 AM

Re: Step 3

2013-10-30 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 29 Oct 2013, at 22:12, LizR wrote: I suggested doing this on FOAR (I used HAL from 2001). It simply makes it easier to visualise if you forget about biological creatures. Assuming comp, an AI is exactly equivalent to a human person, so anything you can do to an AI could be done (in

Re: For John Clark

2013-10-30 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2013/10/30 John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 2:05 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.comwrote: Bruno asked me Do you think that you die in a self-duplication experience? and I said that depends on what the meaning of you is. Bruno responded with We have already agree

Re: Step 3

2013-10-30 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 30 Oct 2013, at 03:18, chris peck wrote: Hi Jason snip How can uncertainty arise in a subject who believes he knows all the relevent facts? How does a prediction of 50/50 not contravene the axiom that I survive anihilation and duplication into two (any number of) branches? All

Re: Step 3

2013-10-30 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 30 Oct 2013, at 05:25, chris peck wrote: Hi Jason (again) in your response to Brent: Personally I believe no theory that aims to attach persons to one psychological or physiological continuity can be successful. ok, but in Bruno's step 3 it is taken as axiomatic that you survive in

Re: Step 3

2013-10-30 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 30 Oct 2013, at 06:35, Jason Resch wrote: On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 3:12 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: I suggested doing this on FOAR (I used HAL from 2001). It simply makes it easier to visualise if you forget about biological creatures. Assuming comp, an AI is exactly equivalent

Re: Step 3

2013-10-30 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 30 Oct 2013, at 10:31, LizR wrote: On 30 October 2013 19:03, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote: My point was only that the traditional notions of personal identity: saying this person is that one particular continuation of that biological organism, or of that one brain, do not

Re: Step 3

2013-10-30 Thread meekerdb
On 10/30/2013 11:24 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: and that personal survival from moment to moment is exactly the same as survival during a duplication experiment. In comp, at least, a person is a series of discrete states, a Capsule theory of memory and identity I find that theory lacking. It is

Re: Is Earth F**ked?

2013-10-30 Thread meekerdb
On 10/30/2013 2:54 PM, LizR wrote: Or to be exact, is humanity fucked? Or at least the vast majority of it - I can imagine some of us surviving even a catastrophic ecological collapse. But leaving aside the horrible thought that we might go 99% extinct, is there any chance for the survivors, at

Re: Is Earth F**ked?

2013-10-30 Thread LizR
On 31 October 2013 12:13, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: Of course if there are 7 billion people it's more likely there will be survivors than if there are only few million. But an asteroid strike could easily be big enough to wipe-out all terrestrial life bigger than bacteria. We

Re: If human beings are nothing more than matter, why are you conscious as yourself?

2013-10-30 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On 30 October 2013 16:07, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: We don’t know that chemical reactions are unconscious... The brain is chemical reactions and consciousness seems to happen when these chemical reactions happen, and not when they don't happen. This we know. We don't know if

Re: If human beings are nothing more than matter, why are you conscious as yourself?

2013-10-30 Thread LizR
This is one of the big questions along with something rather than nothing etc. On 31 October 2013 12:35, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com wrote: On 30 October 2013 16:07, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: We don’t know that chemical reactions are unconscious... The brain

Re: If human beings are nothing more than matter, why are you conscious as yourself?

2013-10-30 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 7:35:26 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On 30 October 2013 16:07, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript: wrote: We don’t know that chemical reactions are unconscious... The brain is chemical reactions and consciousness seems to happen when these

Re: If human beings are nothing more than matter, why are you conscious as yourself?

2013-10-30 Thread LizR
On 31 October 2013 14:46, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 8:00:58 PM UTC-4, Liz R wrote: This is one of the big questions along with something rather than nothing etc. That one is easy. Nothing cannot exist. Nothing is an idea that something has

Re: If human beings are nothing more than matter, why are you conscious as yourself?

2013-10-30 Thread meekerdb
On 10/30/2013 6:53 PM, LizR wrote: On 31 October 2013 14:46, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com mailto:whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 8:00:58 PM UTC-4, Liz R wrote: This is one of the big questions along with something rather than nothing etc.

Re: If human beings are nothing more than matter, why are you conscious as yourself?

2013-10-30 Thread LizR
On 31 October 2013 15:19, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 10/30/2013 6:53 PM, LizR wrote: On 31 October 2013 14:46, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 8:00:58 PM UTC-4, Liz R wrote: This is one of the big questions along with something

Re: If human beings are nothing more than matter, why are you conscious as yourself?

2013-10-30 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 9:53:17 PM UTC-4, Liz R wrote: On 31 October 2013 14:46, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com javascript: wrote: On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 8:00:58 PM UTC-4, Liz R wrote: This is one of the big questions along with something rather than nothing etc.

Re: Step 3

2013-10-30 Thread Jason Resch
On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 4:24 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 31 October 2013 10:50, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 10/30/2013 11:24 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: and that personal survival from moment to moment is exactly the same as survival during a duplication experiment. In

Re: Step 3

2013-10-30 Thread meekerdb
On 10/30/2013 9:30 PM, Jason Resch wrote: And if you manage to define a metric it will no more prove that any two people are the same than it would prove that Moscow is the same as Washington because there's a path between them. If there is a computation which connects the

Re: Is Earth F**ked?

2013-10-30 Thread Jason Resch
On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 5:24 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 31 October 2013 12:13, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: Of course if there are 7 billion people it's more likely there will be survivors than if there are only few million. But an asteroid strike could easily be big

Re: Step 3

2013-10-30 Thread meekerdb
On 10/30/2013 9:36 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 4:24 PM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com mailto:lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 31 October 2013 10:50, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net mailto:meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 10/30/2013 11:24 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

Re: If human beings are nothing more than matter, why are you conscious as yourself?

2013-10-30 Thread Jason Resch
On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 11:07 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.comwrote: A Quora answer to the following question. Nothing new for me here probably, but It's maybe organized in a more concise way. Philosophy: If human beings are nothing more than matter, why are you conscious as